what must we do to get saved?

[christiancanadian]

James 1
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Life and death do not mix, remember James is writing to believers. Sin brings death.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Those of you that continue in sin, and believe yourself saved are deceiving your ownselves. Scripture tells you as much.

Watchmen, believers sin on pretty much a daily basis. After we are saved, we STRIVE NOT TO SIN with God's help of course, because we can do nothing on our own without God's help. We certainly have a different attitude towards sin then before we were saved. Also, a believer who sins knows that they are guilty while an unbeliever could care less. If we see no fruit in a person who claims to be a Christian over time then there is a chance that person was never saved at all! A genuine believer who sins cannot lose their salvation. That person will lose reward though for disobedience.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question on how many sins a believer has to commit to lose their salvation?
Do you want more numbers to choose from? Here are some more than...11? 189? 13? 567? 48,000? 124,000? 4 Billion? 1?


Watchmen, do yourself a favor and lay-off the Paul Washer videos that you've been watching!

 

[MahogonySnail]

Just a note re: sanctification. Might as well bring up the topic now. I know it's common belief around today that sanctification is a life long process , and that it is something separate to justification. But actually Christ's blood both justifies and sanctifies us. We are not justified only by Christ's blood, and then start a life long process of sanctification. Justification and sanctification go together. Sanctification , like justification, is also a work of Christ and not our own doing, it is available to us by faith , and we are sanctified at the moment of belief as the following scriptures show...

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


We are both justified and sanctified the moment we believe in Christ...

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Note the present tense "are" sanctified. This lends doubt to the idea that sanctification is a life-long process, or that we can never be sanctified fully in this life.

Justification is being made righteous, put right with God, regarded as innocent.
Sanctification is being made ceremonially pure.

Jesus's blood does both of these things at the moment of belief. Thanks to Christ we are righteous in God's sight, and also ceremonially pure (sanctified) in God's sight. Not just justification. Sanctification is also by faith:

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

It doesn't make sense to say someone is justified, but not sanctified yet. A person cannot be both righteous in God's sight, and also ceremonially impure. At least I don't think so.

 

[christiancanadian]

Just a note re: sanctification. Might as well bring up the topic now. I know it's common belief around today that sanctification is a life long process , and that it is something separate to justification. But actually Christ's blood both justifies and sanctifies us. We are not justified only by Christ's blood, and then start a life long process of sanctification. Justification and sanctification go together. Sanctification , like justification, is also a work of Christ and not our own doing, it is available to us by faith , and we are sanctified at the moment of belief as the following scriptures show...

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once forall.


We are both justified and sanctified the moment we believe in Christ...

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Note the present tense "are" sanctified. This lends doubt to the idea that sanctification is a life-long process, or that we can never be sanctified fully in this life.

Justification is being made righteous, put right with God, regarded as innocent.
Sanctification is being made ceremonially pure.

Jesus's blood does both of these things at the moment of belief. Thanks to Christ we are righteous in God's sight, and also ceremonially pure (sanctified) in God's sight. Not just justification. Sanctification is also by faith:

Act 26:18Toopentheireyes,andtoturnthemfromdarknesstolight,andfromthepowerofSatanuntoGod,thattheymayreceiveforgivenessofsins,andinheritanceamongthemwhicharesanctifiedbyfaiththatisinme.

It doesn't make sense to say someone is justified, but not sanctified yet. A person cannot be both righteous in God's sight, and also ceremonially impure. At least I don't think so.

We are Justified first. God can't start helping us clean up our life UNTIL he is in us.

Let me put it this way:
It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).

You can see that I'm not disagreeing with you here.

 

[KingdomGeneration]

great testimony Kingdom!!!But I have some questions, your answers could very much help others. First do you feel that you got cleaned up by yourself or do you give God any Glory, for getting you through it? if you feel that it was all you, then there is no need to answer my next question.

Without a doubt it was all God. The struggle lasted three years because I was trying to quit on my own power. It wasn't until I exhausted every avenue and spent a lot of money on resource materials (only for nothing to help) that I began looking toward those Christians who were delivered from drug and alcohol addiction upon salvation. I then realized that while I believed in God, I did not fully understand the cross or what Jesus did that day and because of that I was not in love with Him or fully committed to Him. In essence I was what Jesus would call "a double minded man".

but if you know that God was the one that got you through those three years of struggles. my next question would be when do you feel that you got saved. Before you got cleaned up or at the end of the three years of struggle?

That's hard to say and to be honest, the jury is still out on that one. For me the issue is not about when I was "cleaned up". To me it's about when I truly came into the faith. I now possess the fruit of the spirit that scripture talks about where as before everyday was a battle, one that I failed miserably. I can now say that I feel as though a have literally become a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Anyways, all the ifs, when, and hypotheticals don't matter. What does matter to me is that I share what I have learned to others in the hopes that people are powerfully impacted by the saving grace of Jesus found through the cross. Not only to save but to also heal and deliver. I'm very excited about what the Lord is going to do both in and through me!

 

[KingdomGeneration]

While I won't debate Calvinism because I do believe they do make some valid points, I will say this. Out of my own personal experience with habitual sin, I do not believe in the concept of Carnal Christianity. As I mentioned many times in this thread already, there is a big difference in just believing in God and actually trusting God. There is no doubt in my mind that if I had died while wrestling habitual sin, my soul would have gone to hell.

 

[watchmen]

Watchmen, do yourself a favor and lay-off the Paul Washer videos that you've been watching!

I do like listening to Paul Washer, but I certainly do not form my understanding of scripture by anything he said. What you should do is star listening to what the other Paul, Paul the Apostle had to say.

 

[KingdomGeneration]

Just a note re: sanctification. Might as well bring up the topic now. I know it's common belief around today that sanctification is a life long process , and that it is something separate to justification. But actually Christ's blood both justifies and sanctifies us. We are not justified only by Christ's blood, and then start a life long process of sanctification. Justification and sanctification go together. Sanctification , like justification, is also a work of Christ and not our own doing, it is available to us by faith , and we are sanctified at the moment of belief as the following scriptures show...

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once forall.


We are both justified and sanctified the moment we believe in Christ...

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Note the present tense "are" sanctified. This lends doubt to the idea that sanctification is a life-long process, or that we can never be sanctified fully in this life.

Justification is being made righteous, put right with God, regarded as innocent.
Sanctification is being made ceremonially pure.

Jesus's blood does both of these things at the moment of belief. Thanks to Christ we are righteous in God's sight, and also ceremonially pure (sanctified) in God's sight. Not just justification. Sanctification is also by faith:

Act 26:18Toopentheireyes,andtoturnthemfromdarknesstolight,andfromthepowerofSatanuntoGod,thattheymayreceiveforgivenessofsins,andinheritanceamongthemwhicharesanctifiedbyfaiththatisinme.

It doesn't make sense to say someone is justified, but not sanctified yet. A person cannot be both righteous in God's sight, and also ceremonially impure. At least I don't think so.

I would have to agree with you...

 

[KingdomGeneration]

Watchmen, do yourself a favor and lay-off the Paul Washer videos that you've been watching!

It's very funny that you should say that Canadian because it was through listening through sermons by men like Paul Washer and Damon Thompson that I finally came to realization of the true power that can be found on the cross. While I give God all the credit for the transformation in my life, Paul Washer was one of the tools God used to radically change my life.

 

[KingdomGeneration]

It's very funny that you should say that Canadian because it was through listening through sermons by men like Paul Washer and Damon Thompson that I finally came to realization of the true power that can be found on the cross. While I give God all the credit for the transformation in my life, Paul Washer was one of the tools God used to radically change my life.

If I recall Canadian, you too at one time confessed struggling with lust on these boards. Can you honestly say that you have found spiritual breakthrough and deliverance by listening to Charles Stanley? Or do you get a warm fuzzy feeling every time you hear Stanley profess that you are saved despite the fact that the lifestyle you are living is contrary to scripture?

Remember, we live by faith not by feeling. I am living proof that Washer's ministry produces good fruit. Can you say that about Stanley?

 

[lifetime]

I just found this thread and haven't read all the responses. Just in case no one has mentioned it yet here's a verse:

NIV Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

KJV Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[KingdomGeneration]

I do like listening to Paul Washer, but I certainly do not form my understanding of scripture by anything he said. What you should do is star listening to what the other Paul, Paul the Apostle had to say.

There's is no doubt in my mind that the words of the Apostle Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit however, before I take anyone else into consideration I go straight to the teaching of Jesus.

I think a lot of modern doctrine take the Apostle Paul words out of context even to a point where their doctrine actually contradicts the teachings of Christ. Carnal Christianity being a perfect example of such.

 

[watchmen]

There's is no doubt in my mind that the words of the Apostle Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit however, before I take anyone else into consideration I go straight to the teaching of Jesus.

I think a lot of modern doctrine take the Apostle Paul words out of context even to a point where their doctrine actually contradicts the teachings of Christ. Carnal Christianity being a perfect example of such.

I agree with you even though all of scripture is pure truth the words of Christ carry the most weight. I also agree with what you said about people perverting the teachings of Paul, and that Carnal christianity is a perfect example of that. The sad thing is I believe many purposely distort true doctrine, causing others to stumble unaware of their need for repentance.

 

[watchmen]

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question on how many sins a believer has to commit to lose their salvation?

It is not about how many sins you do or do not commit it is about your heart, it is about repentance. Whether you decide to continue with Christ or turn from Him. We do indeed have the free will to turn from our salvation is we choose.

 

[BLC]

If God took His grace from you how would you function as a believer? Could you walk by faith? Could you make it as a believer? If He is going to take grace from you then He would have to take the Spirit of grace from you also (Heb 10:29, Zech 12:10). Can you make it without the Holy Spirit? If He is going to take grace from you, then He would have to take His word away also because it is the word of His grace (Acts 20:32, 14:13). Can you make it without the word also? If He is going to take away grace from you, He would have to take back His own righteousness as a gift of grace (Rom 5:17,18). Can you make it without His grace, His righteousness, His word and His Spirit? Without grace is it possible for you to have a relationship with God by faith and is it possible to be justified and forgiven of sin? Without grace you are cooked! If Noah had not found grace in the eyes of the LORD (understanding Eph 1:18), would he have drowned like the rest of them (Gen 6:8)?

Grace teaches us to deal with sin, not through human repentance by telling God we are sorry for what we have done, but by faith in receiving what the person of grace (Jesus Christ) has done to that sin on the cross. Because He judged that sin through death, I can freely, without guilt, confess it to God by naming the sin and knowing that God will not judge me for it (1John 1:9). Then, the grace I received to confess my sin, restores me and justifies me as if I never committed the sin. That is going to bother those that don't understand that we have been justified freely by grace and through the blood of Christ (Rom 3:24, Titus 3:7, Rom 5:9).

Don't start trying to lay these guilt trips on believers about sanctification not being a process. When we believe we are instantly set apart through the word (John 17:17,19) and translated out of the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son (Col 1:13). That is positional sanctification at the hand of God and no man can pluck us out of God's hand (John 10:28,29). As we grow in grace and knowledge of Christ (2Pt 3:18), His grace and truth begins to set us apart, little by little, in our experience by washing us with the word, so that He can present to Himself a glorious church, without spot, wrinkle or blemish (Eph 5:26,27). We may fall but we fall into grace and God is able to make us stand (Rom 14:4, 1Pt 5:12, Rom 5:2). We are in a process of not conforming to this world but we are being transformed by the renewing of our mind (Rom 12:2). If any think otherwise, then you have the Apostle Paul who struggled with this process because of his old sin nature that had not been eradicated by God at salvation. Paul explains and experiences this process in (Rom 6&7) before he gets to (Rom 8).

In (Heb 12:1) we are to 'lay aside' the sin that so easily besets us. The word repentance does not
appear in this text. The sin that 'so easily besets' us is the one that keeps tripping us up as we run the race. We are to 'lay aside' this besetting sin that keeps tripping us up, as one would put off an old garment. Take it off and lay it aside, no struggling, no striving and no condemnation. This is the liberty that we have in Christ that no man can take from us (Rom 8:21, 2Cor 3:17, Gal 2:4, 5:1).

 

[KingdomGeneration]

If God took His grace from you how would you function as a believer? Could you walk by faith? Could you make it as a believer? If He is going to take grace from you then He would have to take the Spirit of grace from you also (Heb 10:29, Zech 12:10). Can you make it without the Holy Spirit? If He is going to take grace from you, then He would have to take His word away also because it is the word of His grace (Acts 20:32, 14:13). Can you make it without the word also? If He is going to take away grace from you, He would have to take back His own righteousness as a gift of grace (Rom 5:17,18). Can you make it without His grace, His righteousness, His word and His Spirit? Without grace is it possible for you to have a relationship with God by faith and is it possible to be justified and forgiven of sin? Without grace you are cooked! If Noah had not found grace in the eyes of the LORD (understanding Eph 1:18), would he have drowned like the rest of them (Gen 6:8)?

Grace teaches us to deal with sin, not through human repentance by telling God we are sorry for what we have done, but by faith in receiving what the person of grace (Jesus Christ) has done to that sin on the cross. Because He judged that sin through death, I can freely, without guilt, confess it to God by naming the sin and knowing that God will not judge me for it (1John 1:9). Then, the grace I received to confess my sin, restores me and justifies me as if I never committed the sin. That is going to bother those that don't understand that we have been justified freely by grace and through the blood of Christ (Rom 3:24, Titus 3:7, Rom 5:9).

Don't start trying to lay these guilt trips on believers about sanctification not being a process. When we believe we are instantly set apart through the word (John 17:17,19) and translated out of the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son (Col 1:13). That is positional sanctification at the hand of God and no man can pluck us out of God's hand (John 10:28,29). As we grow in grace and knowledge of Christ (2Pt 3:18), His grace and truth begins to set us apart, little by little, in our experience by washing us with the word, so that He can present to Himself a glorious church, without spot, wrinkle or blemish (Eph 5:26,27). We may fall but we fall into grace and God is able to make us stand (Rom 14:4, 1Pt 5:12, Rom 5:2). We are in a process of not conforming to this world but we are being transformed by the renewing of our mind (Rom 12:2). If any think otherwise, then you have the Apostle Paul who struggled with this process because of his old sin nature that had not been eradicated by God at salvation. Paul explains and experiences this process in (Rom 6&7) before he gets to (Rom 8).

In (Heb 12:1) we are to 'lay aside' the sin that so easily besets us. The word repentance does not
appear in this text. The sin that 'so easily besets' us is the one that keeps tripping us up as we run the race. We are to 'lay aside' this besetting sin that keeps tripping us up, as one would put off an old garment. Take it off and lay it aside, no struggling, no striving and no condemnation. This is the liberty that we have in Christ that no man can take from us (Rom 8:21, 2Cor 3:17, Gal 2:4, 5:1).

BLC have you ever truly felt or witnessed the power of the cross to not only to save but to heal and deliver? I have personally. In an instant the Lord Jesus Christ delivered me from the chains of lust. Am I still tempted from time to time, yes however, now when tempted I rarely give it a second thought where as before I could not walk away.

It wasn't until I fully understood the power of cross, the infinite love that Jesus displayed that day when he gave His life, when I fully understood and fell in love with Him and completely place my trust in Him, that the miraculous happened.

If that's not sanctification, then tell us, not from a book or some other doctrinal teaching, but tell us from your personal experience or revelation from the Holy Spirit just what sanctification is?

Also when is the last time you receive a supernatural miracle in your life (outside of salvation)? Better yet when's the last time someone was healed and or delivered from bondage in your church?

 

[BLC]

The cross always represents death to the believer. But without death there is no life. Life always comes forth out of death. Jesus had to die before He could be resurrected in life. The corn of wheat must die before it can bring forth fruit (John 12:24). Paul said death works in me but life in you (2Cor 4:12). The cross crucified Adam, the flesh and the old sin nature through death. When we get baptized by water immersion, when we go down it represents the death and drowning out of the old man and when we come up it represents the one new man and the newness of life that we have through His resurrection. When we take up our cross we let the plan of God execute death to every part of our old life experientially. Paul said I die daily (1Cor 15:31). Why? So that Christ might be made manifest in his body (2Cor 4:10,11).

Equation: God + 0 (or nothing) = God. God wants to reduce us to '0' (or nothing) so that God can be revealed through us to others. God has to take our flesh and who we are in Adam away by crucifying it through death. Example: Let's say that you are a brother in Christ and we are attending the same school, but there is something that really bugs me about you, and I don't want to be around you or even talk with you. I avoid you and never have a good thing to say about you. God decides to make us bunk mates in the dorm. I try to get out of it but nothing happens. God does that because he does not want any of my flesh to glory in His presence (1Cor 1:28,29). Jesus Christ went to the cross and sacrificed His life through death to crucify my flesh and He doesn't particularly like it when He sees me living in my flesh, so He makes things a uncomfortable for my flesh.

Some believers actually start getting upset and depressed if the weather doesn't cooperate with what makes them feel good. If someone doesn't show up on time they have a fit and have a few choice words for that person. If dinner is not on the table when they get home from work they get upset and reactionary and fly off the handle. If their child does something to embarrass them they get self conscious and angry and have to react in the flesh and say to the child, 'Just wait until I get you home'. How about all those husbands that are impatient and hate to wait for their wife to get ready. All of that is the flesh and God has to do something to crucify that flesh because Christ is not being revealed at all when they are like that. The purpose of the cross is not to heal or deliver me from the flesh, but to CRUCIFY IT!

Gal 2:20 'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me'.

 

[KingdomGeneration]

The cross always represents death to the believer. But without death there is no life. Life always comes forth out of death. Jesus had to die before He could be resurrected in life. The corn of wheat must die before it can bring forth fruit (John 12:24). Paul said death works in me but life in you (2Cor 4:12). The cross crucified Adam, the flesh and the old sin nature through death. When we get baptized by water immersion, when we go down it represents the death and drowning out of the old man and when we come up it represents the one new man and the newness of life that we have through His resurrection. When we take up our cross we let the plan of God execute death to every part of our old life experientially. Paul said I die daily (1Cor 15:31). Why? So that Christ might be made manifest in his body (2Cor 4:10,11).

Equation: God + 0 (or nothing) = God. God wants to reduce us to '0' (or nothing) so that God can be revealed through us to others. God has to take our flesh and who we are in Adam away by crucifying it through death. Example: Let's say that you are a brother in Christ and we are attending the same school, but there is something that really bugs me about you, and I don't want to be around you or even talk with you. I avoid you and never have a good thing to say about you. God decides to make us bunk mates in the dorm. I try to get out of it but nothing happens. God does that because he does not want any of my flesh to glory in His presence (1Cor 1:28,29). Jesus Christ went to the cross and sacrificed His life through death to crucify my flesh and He doesn't particularly like it when He sees me living in my flesh, so He makes things a uncomfortable for my flesh.

Some believers actually start getting upset and depressed if the weather doesn't cooperate with what makes them feel good. If someone doesn't show up on time they have a fit and have a few choice words for that person. If dinner is not on the table when they get home from work they get upset and reactionary and fly off the handle. If their child does something to embarrass them they get self conscious and angry and have to react in the flesh and say to the child, 'Just wait until I get you home'. How about all those husbands that are impatient and hate to wait for their wife to get ready. All of that is the flesh and God has to do something to crucify that flesh because Christ is not being revealed at all when they are like that. The purpose of the cross is not to heal or deliver me from the flesh, but to CRUCIFY IT!

Gal 2:20 'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me'.

Nice speach BLC, but have you ever experienced or your church operated in the healing and delivering power found through the cross? I hope you realize that unless you have have actually been to a certain location then you are not qualified to lead others to that location. However by attempting do so, even though you have no idea how to get there, you are what scripture refers to as the blind leading the blind into a ditch.

Matthew 23:13-15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

 

[BLC]

Nice speach BLC, but have you ever experienced or your church operated in the healing and delivering power found through the cross? I hope you realize that unless you have have actually been to a certain location then you are not qualified to lead others to that location. However by attempting do so, even though you have no idea how to get there, you are what scripture refers to as the blind leading the blind into a ditch.

Matthew 23:13-15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

PLEASE, CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THIS INDIVIDUAL IS TRYING TO SAY, ESPECIALLY IN THE HIGHLIGHTED BLUE.

 

[MahogonySnail]

We are Justified first. God can't start helping us clean up our life UNTIL he is in us.

Let me put it this way:
It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).

You can see that I'm not disagreeing with you here.

Right you are not disagreeing, I'm not really disagreeing either with what you said, I was just presenting sanctification as what we are positionally and as scripture seems to teach. What you are referring to may be called something else. You are referring to sanctification as what God makes us in reality. But I'd say what we are in reality is our positional sanctification, God's reality, not our own. But I think when the scripture talks about sanctification (i've done some e-bible word searches for sanctify/sancitified/sanctifying etc) , it refers to the positional sanctification. But think of this way... perhaps.. the reality is what God says we are, not what we become (as a process). Sanctification is all about God's doing not our own, so when we say sanctification is us being sanctified by a process, isn't that the language of works and self-effort? I mean you are either sanctified or you aren't. There is no such thing, in my mind, of being half sanctified, i.e. half ceremonially pure.

This is the really Good News, that Jesus did not only make us innocent (i.e. justified) before God, but also ceremonially pure...
Jesus Christ is our sanctification:
1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption;
And if God says we are ceremonially pure, (i.e. sanctified), then that is the reality. In other words, our transgressions are covered, our shortcomings are covered, we are under God's grace (undeserved merit/favor).

Not only does the blood of Christ justify us, but it also sanctified (past tense) us:

Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy of punishment, the one who has trampled the Son of God, and who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[NoahsDad]

Originally Posted by KingdomGeneration

Nice speach BLC, but have you ever experienced or your church operated in the healing and delivering power found through the cross? I hope you realize that unless you have have actually been to a certain location then you are not qualified to lead others to that location. However by attempting do so, even though you have no idea how to get there, you are what scripture refers to as the blind leading the blind into a ditch.

He is saying,Have you or your church ever operated in the the healing or delivering power of the cross through the holy spirit.
In other words,Have you ever been delivered By the power of what Christ Jesus did on the cross by the which is written,"By His stripes are we healed",
Or have you ever been in close contact to a person that has had this happen or this exact expierience.
I think.......