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Did David have the wrong understanding about sin?
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The word conceive is yacham - a verb that is piel / perfect, meaning to be hot sexually, sexual intercourse, an intentional act that was completed in the past. The word sin is chet - a masculine noun meaning one who has missed the mark, unclean, guilty. This pertains to the inward nature of the one conceived before they are born. But once born...
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. The word for wicked is rasha - an adjective describing the condition of man being guilty, condemned, separated and hostile in relationship to God, this happens in the womb. Furthermore, they go astray as in (1Pt 2:25) and if we read the (Rom 3:9-19), it covers both the Jew and the Gentile in full (esp v.19). They are estranged (they turn aside and become alienated), they go astray (they err and wander about because they have no soundness in them) and they speak lies (they speak falsehood and deceit with their tongue) after they are born.
All that are born of a woman (except Christ) are actually condemned and separated from God in the womb at conception. God has called certain ones from the womb, but that does not take away from them being conceived in sin and their need for redemption. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that starts before birth and before we had done any good or evil. Do you think, as some of our catholic friends do, that John the baptist was conceived without sin and had no need for the Saviour to take away his sins as well as those that he baptized unto repentance?
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The word conceive is yacham - a verb that is piel / perfect, meaning to be hot sexually, sexual intercourse, an intentional act that was completed in the past. The word sin is chet - a masculine noun meaning one who has missed the mark, unclean, guilty. This pertains to the inward nature of the one conceived before they are born. But once born...
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. The word for wicked is rasha - an adjective describing the condition of man being guilty, condemned, separated and hostile in relationship to God, this happens in the womb. Furthermore, they go astray as in (1Pt 2:25) and if we read the (Rom 3:9-19), it covers both the Jew and the Gentile in full (esp v.19). They are estranged (they turn aside and become alienated), they go astray (they err and wander about because they have no soundness in them) and they speak lies (they speak falsehood and deceit with their tongue) after they are born.
All that are born of a woman (except Christ) are actually condemned and separated from God in the womb at conception. God has called certain ones from the womb, but that does not take away from them being conceived in sin and their need for redemption. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that starts before birth and before we had done any good or evil. Do you think, as some of our catholic friends do, that John the baptist was conceived without sin and had no need for the Saviour to take away his sins as well as those that he baptized unto repentance?
A
death isn't something to be feared. God preserves His people until they have accomplished the task He sent them to do then He welcomes back home and His rest.
Revelation 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
It is Sin not Death that is our enemy for sin kept us from God.
Death is just one of God's judgments and sometimes if is a mercy and blessing because that is when God gathers His people to Him.
It is when men try and mete out God's judgment and vengeance and upsurp His power that issues arise.
Revelation 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
It is Sin not Death that is our enemy for sin kept us from God.
Death is just one of God's judgments and sometimes if is a mercy and blessing because that is when God gathers His people to Him.
It is when men try and mete out God's judgment and vengeance and upsurp His power that issues arise.
B
Did Ezekiel have a misunderstanding about sin?
Eze 18:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
Eze 18:2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3 "As I live," says the Lord God, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
What sin has a baby committed?
God will not hold one accountable for what another has done.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Even in this context notice verse 14. It was not the same sin that Adam committed.
1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
KJV says transgression of the law.
One cannot sin unless they transgress Gods commands.
We do not inherit Adams sin, but we all suffer the consequences of the sin that was committed.
Thus, sin entered into the world, and because of such, all men sin.
Notice 1 John 2:15, 16.
1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.
Which one of these has a child just born committed?
Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
Mat 18:2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Mat 18:6 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Why would Christ use a little child as an example if the child was already a sinner.
Any time our understanding of a few select verse contradict the overall teaching of the Bible, our understanding is wrong.
Eze 18:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
Eze 18:2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3 "As I live," says the Lord God, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
What sin has a baby committed?
God will not hold one accountable for what another has done.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Even in this context notice verse 14. It was not the same sin that Adam committed.
1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
KJV says transgression of the law.
One cannot sin unless they transgress Gods commands.
We do not inherit Adams sin, but we all suffer the consequences of the sin that was committed.
Thus, sin entered into the world, and because of such, all men sin.
Notice 1 John 2:15, 16.
1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.
Which one of these has a child just born committed?
Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
Mat 18:2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Mat 18:6 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Why would Christ use a little child as an example if the child was already a sinner.
Any time our understanding of a few select verse contradict the overall teaching of the Bible, our understanding is wrong.
L
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psalms 146:4
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psalms 146:4
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Forest, I have no clue how you could arrive at such a ridiculous conclusion. Of course we need the gospel now.
That is correct. We hear the gospel, choose to believe it, and we become saved (and in case you're confused, it is eternal salvation). But if we die before Christ returns, we will be dead until that moment. The "dead in Christ" in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 refers to Christians who have died. They are still at this moment dead, and will be raised at the return. That is when death (for Christians) will be abolished.
That is correct. We hear the gospel, choose to believe it, and we become saved (and in case you're confused, it is eternal salvation). But if we die before Christ returns, we will be dead until that moment. The "dead in Christ" in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 refers to Christians who have died. They are still at this moment dead, and will be raised at the return. That is when death (for Christians) will be abolished.
Psalm 51:5
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."
hyperbole... and consider the following phrase, if, and I do say IF, this is meant to be taken literally:
"and in drunkenness my father beat me"...
was I drunk when my father beat me? no... for this verse to be taken literally, it would mean my father was drunk when he beat me.
consider Psalm 51:7
"Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."
does hyssop, a plant, literally cleanse us? no... the blood of Jesus cleanses us, and even the blood of Jesus does not cleanse us literally... the blood of Jesus cleanses us spiritually.
psalm 51 was written by David because of the guilt he felt after Nathan confronted him about the sin he had committed by having an affair with Bathsheba and killing her husband after he found out... he is feeling extremely convicted from his sin, and he is expressing his guilt through hyperbole
Psalm 58:3
" The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."
1.) it says their condition, and then it explains how they reach that condition... lets look at the second part of the verse:
" they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies"
it says they "go astray"... not that they are born astray
the second part says " speaking lies"... this is an important part to the verse. For those here who are parents, or who were present for the birth of a child, i ask you: when that child was born, can that child speak? can that child lie? can that child even comprehend speaking or lying?
that answer is a resounding NO.
once again, this is hyperbole... David is over-exaggerating the state of those mentioned earlier in v.3 and vv.1-2
let's look at Psalm 58:4-6
"4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent; they are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers, charming ever so skillfully.
6 Break their teeth in their mouth, O God! Break out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD!"
are these wicked people a serpent, or a cobra? no
does David literally want their teeth gone? no
are these wicked people literal lions? no
this is all figurative language... all hyperbole... poetry used to describe men who are deep in sin.
Job 1:21
“ Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there."
do you honestly think Job believes that he will die and literally go back into his mother's womb? i would most certainly hope not
i want to point out that i am not saying that man is naturally good... all I'm saying is that man is not born genetically depraved
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."
hyperbole... and consider the following phrase, if, and I do say IF, this is meant to be taken literally:
"and in drunkenness my father beat me"...
was I drunk when my father beat me? no... for this verse to be taken literally, it would mean my father was drunk when he beat me.
consider Psalm 51:7
"Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."
does hyssop, a plant, literally cleanse us? no... the blood of Jesus cleanses us, and even the blood of Jesus does not cleanse us literally... the blood of Jesus cleanses us spiritually.
psalm 51 was written by David because of the guilt he felt after Nathan confronted him about the sin he had committed by having an affair with Bathsheba and killing her husband after he found out... he is feeling extremely convicted from his sin, and he is expressing his guilt through hyperbole
Psalm 58:3
" The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."
1.) it says their condition, and then it explains how they reach that condition... lets look at the second part of the verse:
" they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies"
it says they "go astray"... not that they are born astray
the second part says " speaking lies"... this is an important part to the verse. For those here who are parents, or who were present for the birth of a child, i ask you: when that child was born, can that child speak? can that child lie? can that child even comprehend speaking or lying?
that answer is a resounding NO.
once again, this is hyperbole... David is over-exaggerating the state of those mentioned earlier in v.3 and vv.1-2
let's look at Psalm 58:4-6
"4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent; they are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers, charming ever so skillfully.
6 Break their teeth in their mouth, O God! Break out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD!"
are these wicked people a serpent, or a cobra? no
does David literally want their teeth gone? no
are these wicked people literal lions? no
this is all figurative language... all hyperbole... poetry used to describe men who are deep in sin.
Job 1:21
“ Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there."
do you honestly think Job believes that he will die and literally go back into his mother's womb? i would most certainly hope not
i want to point out that i am not saying that man is naturally good... all I'm saying is that man is not born genetically depraved
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This is a prime example of the liberal mind that rationalizes the scriptures to fit into their humanistic way of thinking. If you want to take (Ps 51:5) and make it a hyperbole, why not make the entire chapter. With your hyperbole we have to deal with David as he speaks to God with a humble and contrite heart, as one that communicates with God in hyperboles. David exaggerating his condition before a holy God as a sinner and not really meaning what he said being under conviction. Is that how we should communicate in truth with a holy God?
If we use your rationalization of the drunken father and apply that to (v.5) 'in sin did my mother conceive me', for it to be taken literal we would have to say rather, 'my mother was in sin when she conceived me'.
The entire chapter reveals David's spiritual condition before God concerning his sin and it is a literal one, not made up or exaggerated for a specific emphasis. David had literally sinned, he acknowledged it, he asked for mercy to be cleansed, he stated his present mental and emotional condition because of his sin and as a sinner which started at conception in the womb and requested God to fully restore him through mercy.
The pure and simple truth is that we are all conceived in sin through Adam's transgression and you or anyone else can not change that with your liberal understanding that desperately wants to believe that their all men are born without sin and have a potential for good, when the scriptures teach that there is none that doeth good, NO NOT ONE (Ps 14:1-3, Rom 3:10-12). I hope you don't take these passages of scripture and 'hyperbolize' them with your humanistic and liberal mind bent.
BTW - You don't have to teach a child how to lie or steal cookies out of the cookie jar, they know how to do that all on their own because it is innate. A young child even begins to have imaginations in his little deceitful heart that comes from a sin nature he was born with. We like to think of children as innocent, but they learn how to even manipulate their parents with cries and tantrums before they are even able to speak one word. This is why they go astray from the womb, because it is in them to do so. YES, the sin nature in man is genetical and resides in every member and cell of the human body, making it a body of sin and death (Rom 7:23-25).
If we use your rationalization of the drunken father and apply that to (v.5) 'in sin did my mother conceive me', for it to be taken literal we would have to say rather, 'my mother was in sin when she conceived me'.
The entire chapter reveals David's spiritual condition before God concerning his sin and it is a literal one, not made up or exaggerated for a specific emphasis. David had literally sinned, he acknowledged it, he asked for mercy to be cleansed, he stated his present mental and emotional condition because of his sin and as a sinner which started at conception in the womb and requested God to fully restore him through mercy.
The pure and simple truth is that we are all conceived in sin through Adam's transgression and you or anyone else can not change that with your liberal understanding that desperately wants to believe that their all men are born without sin and have a potential for good, when the scriptures teach that there is none that doeth good, NO NOT ONE (Ps 14:1-3, Rom 3:10-12). I hope you don't take these passages of scripture and 'hyperbolize' them with your humanistic and liberal mind bent.
BTW - You don't have to teach a child how to lie or steal cookies out of the cookie jar, they know how to do that all on their own because it is innate. A young child even begins to have imaginations in his little deceitful heart that comes from a sin nature he was born with. We like to think of children as innocent, but they learn how to even manipulate their parents with cries and tantrums before they are even able to speak one word. This is why they go astray from the womb, because it is in them to do so. YES, the sin nature in man is genetical and resides in every member and cell of the human body, making it a body of sin and death (Rom 7:23-25).
there is no proof that sin is genetic.
and yes, David literally sinned, but that doesn't mean the verses are talking literally... he is reflecting his guilt in the verses, not his genetics.
and of course i dont take all of Psalms as hyperbole, but even you failed to realize that Pslam 14:1 -3 doesn't say they were born as sinners.
and if we are born genetic sinners, then that makes God a sinner as well, because we are made in the likeness of His image. (Genesis 1:26)
I'd rather be a Christian than a Calvinist, because Calvinism makes God a moral monster
and yes, David literally sinned, but that doesn't mean the verses are talking literally... he is reflecting his guilt in the verses, not his genetics.
and of course i dont take all of Psalms as hyperbole, but even you failed to realize that Pslam 14:1 -3 doesn't say they were born as sinners.
and if we are born genetic sinners, then that makes God a sinner as well, because we are made in the likeness of His image. (Genesis 1:26)
I'd rather be a Christian than a Calvinist, because Calvinism makes God a moral monster
You say that sin is not genetic but can you point to a single individual born of a woman, other than Christ, that you can say had never sinned (even those mentioned in Rom 5:14). Some would point to Mary (Jesus' mother & John the baptist), but we know that they both were in need of a Savior and for a Lamb to take away their sin (Lk 1:47, Jn 1:29).
God created man and the woman in His image and likeness (Gen 1:26,27, 5:1), but after the fall man was begotten in Adam's own image and likeness, a sinful man (Gen 5:3). This is where the sin nature was transmitted to the entire human race (Rom 5:12,13) through procreation (the male sperm and not the female ovum). This is why God sent His Son who was made in the likeness of sinful men (Phil 2:7, Rom 8:3), and condemned sin in His own flesh.
God was manifest in the flesh to condemn sin. That does not make God a moral monster but a Saviour for sinners in need of mercy that He came to give through His Son and the blood He shed for the propitiation and remission of sins. He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15).
God created man and the woman in His image and likeness (Gen 1:26,27, 5:1), but after the fall man was begotten in Adam's own image and likeness, a sinful man (Gen 5:3). This is where the sin nature was transmitted to the entire human race (Rom 5:12,13) through procreation (the male sperm and not the female ovum). This is why God sent His Son who was made in the likeness of sinful men (Phil 2:7, Rom 8:3), and condemned sin in His own flesh.
God was manifest in the flesh to condemn sin. That does not make God a moral monster but a Saviour for sinners in need of mercy that He came to give through His Son and the blood He shed for the propitiation and remission of sins. He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15).
S
There is no parent out there who ever had to teach their kids how to lie, how to covet, or how to hurt others, when they seem to do it almost by instinct. In fact, most parenting involves teaching their kids NOT to do those things. So maybe sin is genetic and maybe it isn't, but if it's not then it's as close to it as it can possibly be.