Law: Old Way of Salvation and Faith: New Way to Salvation

[violakat]

While I pretty much agree with Jimmy on this one, (are you surprised Jimmy) I do think that Red Tent does have a point about the NT being a continuation of the OT. Everything in the OT was pointing to the Cross. For the Jews, it was about repentance. When they sinned they were to immediately confess it and be made right with God, thus the sacrificial sin offerings. These sin offerings were foreshadows of what Christ would do on the Cross. Since Christ came and died on the Cross, the OT however, is not to be thrown away. Christ Himself says that He didn't come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. If we continue on in the NT, we notice that pretty all the NT is about repentance. How in order to be right with God, we must repent. God doesn't just reach out a wand and say, okay, you are saved, but your not. No, instead, we must go to Him and Humble ourselves before the Holy God and ask Him to save us. And each time we sin, we must confess it to God and ask for His forgiveness, not in order to be re-saved, but to restore fellowship with him.

 

[cfultz3]

No longer by works? No one has ever been saved by works of the law.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[loveme1]

Romans 11

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Even obeying the Law 100 percent still did not hold them guiltless, seeing they went to Abraham's Bosom awaiting their Deliverer.

According to scripture. no man has done this but Christ. so I do not see your point.

Sins and transgressions were forgiven, but they were still guilty. But the blood of bulls and goats gave them a temportary forgivness, inasmuch as the everlasting blood of Christ gives us forgiveness. And again, that is why they went to Hades, because they were guilty. And when Chrsit presented Himself as their sacrifice, they who beleived were saved.

1. David would disagree with you, He said sacrifice and burnt offering God did not desire for his sin.
2. They were forgiven of all sin, It was just not paid in full until Christ paid the price. They were not in hades, they were in paradise, It was separated by the gulf, the guilty in hades, the forgiven in paradise, Until Christ took paradise into heaven with him when he paid the price in full.

Of course, the Law did not save them from the judgment of separation from God, only Christ was able to deliver them. And by hearing and believing the Lord in Hades (the abode of the dead), thier faith in Him saved them. But until that day, they who were obedient to the Law went to Abraham's Bosom. You see, we, those in Christ, are no longer held guilty of disobedioence of the Law, because He became our obedience and in such obedience, fulfilled the Law for us of faith.

Again wrong, this form of dispensationalism has no basis of fact. Everyone from adam until today has always been saved by faith in Christ. The law was just given to help lead people to Christ, including them. The law could not save anyone, because no one could fulfill the law.

 

[cfultz3]

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Again wrong, this form of dispensationalism has no basis of fact. Everyone from adam until today has always been saved by faith in Christ. The law was just given to help lead people to Christ, including them. The law could not save anyone, because no one could fulfill the law.

Of course, the Law did not save them from the judgment of separation from God, only Christ was able to deliver them. And by hearing and believing the Lord in Hades (the abode of the dead), thier faith in Him saved them. But until that day, they who were obedient to the Law went to Abraham's Bosom. You see, we, those in Christ, are no longer held guilty of disobedioence of the Law, because He became our obedience and in such obedience, fulfilled the Law for us of faith.

 

[GreenNnice]

Again wrong, this form of dispensationalism has no basis of fact. Everyone from adam until today has always been saved by faith in Christ. The law was just given to help lead people to Christ, including them. The law could not save anyone, because no one could fulfill the law.

Yes, by Christ, He saves us, His power, but.... The Law IS how those pre-Christ were saved by God's COVENANT with the people of that time, ONLY by their FAITHFUL adherence to The Law were 'they' saved pre-Christ, which was the only way they could get to 'Paradise' in Sheol. It was HOW 'they' pleased God pre-Christ, it was their blueprint for righteous living, obedience to God was obedience to The Law (10 commandments).

 

[cfultz3]

[/color][/b]

Yes, by Christ, He saves us, His power, but.... The Law IS how those pre-Christ were saved by God's COVENANT with the people of that time, ONLY by their FAITHFUL adherence to The Law were 'they' saved pre-Christ, which was the only way they could get to 'Paradise' in Sheol. It was HOW 'they' pleased God pre-Christ, it was their blueprint for righteous living, obedience to God was obedience to The Law (10 commandments).

obedience to God was obedience to The Law (10 commandments). And may I only add to this truth, 'and all which was given by Moses'.

 

[Ariel82]

The Law of the Spirit (the Spirit as our tutor) replaced the Law of Ordinances (the physical dos and don'ts as a tutor). I am not denying faith in the Old Testament, and neither did they who obeyed the Law as a means to receive everlasting salvation from their Messiah. But they through the Law received forgivenss by temporary sacrifices, but received everlasting forgiveness by the shed blood of Christ. Under the Law, they still faced damnation (separation from God), but received their deliverance from such by Christ going to Hades to deliver them. They looked forward to a Messiah and they who believed Jesus, received their Messiah.

You see, there was faith in the Old Testament, but their faith in the Christ was not realized until He went to them. Just as Abraham believed God when God spoke to him, so too did they believe Christ when He spoke to them. And those who believed were delivered, as we who believe are delivered.

Not sure I swallow the whole line about Jesus going to Hades thing.

Heard it but it just sounds strange and I didn't really see the logic or the scripture to support the idea.

Will have to study and pray about it more.

my current preacher by the way would agree with you, but then he likes the weird online preacher who makes God sound like a corporate executive or mob boss wanting His ten percent cut or more. We're talking about that one too. He agrees that God's treasure is more than money and its about good deeds and for the most part we agree on topics, just don't know why he likes the strange guy online or Joyce Meyer's.
But at the end of the day, we pray and trust God to teach us all His truth.

(and I try not to argue too much with the preachers I meet, lol that's why come online to do it and make sense of others varying beliefs)

Anyway love you Cflutz when I get a chance we'll talk more about how people are saved in the OT.

I've got some scriptures I want to show you. But my daughter needs a bath and want to do a science experiment about crystal formation.

 

[cfultz3]

Not sure I swallow the whole line about Jesus going to Hades thing. My sister, just a quick copy paste from scripture:
Eph 4:9-10 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep (abyss)? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.

Heard it but it just sounds strange and I didn't really see the logic or the scripture to support the idea. -- May I suggest the following link : [link] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham [/link]

Will have to study and pray about it more.

my current preacher by the way would agree with you, but then he likes the weird online preacher who makes God sound like a corporate executive or mob boss wanting His ten percent cut or more (thanks, I guess ). We're talking about that one too. He agrees that God's treasure is more than money and its about good deeds and for the most part we agree on topics, just don't know why he likes the strange guy online or Joyce Meyer's <-- Me either.

But at the end of the day, we pray and trust God to teach us all His truth.

(and I try not to argue too much with the preachers I meet, lol that's why come online to do it and make sense of others varying beliefs)

Anyway love you Cflutz when I get a chance we'll talk more about how people are saved in the OT. -- I earnestly await my sister.

I've got some scriptures I want to show you. But my daughter needs a bath and want to do a science experiment about crystal formation. -- tell her that crystals are formed my pressure, lol.

 

[Ariel82]

daughter's in bed, have to fold laundry and type up lesson plans...

we used a crystal making kit from dollar general. all you do is add water. We'll see how they grow in the morning. If it looks nice I'll post a picture of them. lol

I'll check out the links when I get a chance and respond later if I find time

 

[cfultz3]

Ariel,

I found a better link to understand that Jesus went to Hades (note that Hades is not the same as Hell (the place of curruption, which He did not suffer (the judgment of the damned during the Great White Throne judgment))). Anyway, here is the link: Got Questions: Did Jesus Go to Hell

 

[GreenNnice]

I guess the question regarding the Parable Of Lazarus & Dives is quite simple to undetstand, either what Jesus described is false or it's Truth .

________==____°))))))))))(((((((HS

Cee, the line in the sand you drew for bringing the law to a head knowledge of what Christ gave us as is known 'faith' is unparallelled in 'thread' effect and the degrees of vibrations and reverberations are 'crystallized' clarity in the minds of whoever reads, with the power of the Holy Spirit, exposing known darkness and teaching them through His light what He wants them to know . Brilliant !

 

[jimmydiggs]

I don't always attempt to expound scripture...

... but when I do, I make sure to put on my Dispensationalism glasses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course, the Law did not save them from the judgment of separation from God, only Christ was able to deliver them. And by hearing and believing the Lord in Hades (the abode of the dead), thier faith in Him saved them.

What? Now your saying they did not have faith until they were already dead? Where do you get this? who in their mind is going to turn down Christ once you get to the afterlife? No this is not right. They had to have faith in the coming messiah before they died, This is what Abraham did, and it is what saved him.

But until that day, they who were obedient to the Law went to Abraham's Bosom. You see, we, those in Christ, are no longer held guilty of disobedioence of the Law, because He became our obedience and in such obedience, fulfilled the Law for us of faith.

Again it can't be this way. For they would have to be perfect in order to recieve life according to the law. And since no one was perfect. no one would have made it. Those who trusted God, just like us today, were obedient, Not to get saved, but because they had faith in God, their faith saved them, not the works of the law. The works of the law NEVER SAVED ANYONE.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/color][/b]

Yes, by Christ, He saves us, His power, but.... The Law IS how those pre-Christ were saved by God's COVENANT with the people of that time, ONLY by their FAITHFUL adherence to The Law were 'they' saved pre-Christ, which was the only way they could get to 'Paradise' in Sheol. It was HOW 'they' pleased God pre-Christ, it was their blueprint for righteous living, obedience to God was obedience to The Law (10 commandments).

The old covenant was week, in that it did not save anyone, That is why God gave a better covenant. No one was saved by the old covenant, They would have had to have been perfect. It takes 1 sin to make us deserve separation from God (spiritual death) just like it took one death to make ALL mankind right with God, that one death was Christs, he redeemed adam, and abraham, and moses and everyone else in the old testament. The old led all people to Christ, even those in the OT, (remember Christ is the english tranliteration of the greek word christos, which is the translation of the hebrew word messiah,) We look back to the messiah, They looked forward to him. It is what saved, Faith saves today like it did back then. The law showed them their need, because like us, NO ONE CAN FULFILL IT.

 

[cfultz3]

What? Now your saying they did not have faith until they were already dead? Where do you get this? who in their mind is going to turn down Christ once you get to the afterlife? No this is not right. They had to have faith in the coming messiah before they died, This is what Abraham did, and it is what saved him. --- Not all of those of the Law went to Abraham's Bosom, but they who did looked forward to their Deliverer. Jesus went to Shoel, not Hell, a place where His soul did not suffer to go. It was their hope in a future Savior they they who did obey the Law looked forward too, inasmuch as we who hope for the same future Deliverer, obey the Spirit. There was a prism, of the sort, which separated those faithul from those unbelieving, and it was the side (Paradise) where Jesus went to. If my words are read for what they are, it can be seen they they died trusting that a future Deliverer will save them from that guilty judgment of separation from God. This was thier faith, inasmuch as it is our faith that He will return.



Again it can't be this way. For they would have to be perfect in order to recieve life according to the law. And since no one was perfect. no one would have made it. Those who trusted God, just like us today, were obedient, Not to get saved, but because they had faith in God, their faith saved them, not the works of the law. The works of the law NEVER SAVED ANYONE. --- One only has to abide by the rules and regulations of the law, either God's Law or societal law, to be considered a law abiding citizen. They who looked forward to their Savior, sought to be obedient to that which God says was His ways, in the very same way that we see faith and not works as the basis of final salvation. They had but the Law to show them God's ways, we have the Spirit of adoption. Indeed we, they of the Law or us of faith, are not perfect, seeing that we are naturally children of the rebellion. Perfection only comes when we have been transformed. They had faith in a future Messiah, and that is what made them, just as we are obedient to the Spirit, obedient to the Law as their tutor.

I repeat, the works of the Law NEVER SAVED ANYONE, seeing that is why they were found guilty and went to Hades (Paradise, Abraham's Bosom). To be saved is to say that one has been delivered from the eternal judgment of everlasting separation from God awaiting those on the left side of the Great White Throne. And again, and they were saved (delivered, rescued) from Hades by their faith in the Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

--- Not all of those of the Law went to Abraham's Bosom, but they who did looked forward to their Deliverer

exactly, They had faith that God would send a deliveror, and this is what saved them, Not obeying some law.

Jesus went to Shoel, not Hell, a place where His soul did not suffer to go.

I never said he went to hell, No one will go to hell until first satan is cast there. Jesus went to a place where paradise and hades were separated by a gulf. Those who trusted God was on one said, those who rejected God on the other, NO MATTER HOW GOOD OR BAD THEY WERE. Jesus preached to all people there. Told the ones in hades their fates where sealed, and those in paradise their salvation was perfected. and took them to be wiht him forever.

It was their hope in a future Savior they they who did obey the Law looked forward too, inasmuch as we who hope for the same future Deliverer, obey the Spirit. There was a prism, of the sort, which separated those faithul from those unbelieving, and it was the side (Paradise) where Jesus went to. If my words are read for what they are, it can be seen they they died trusting that a future Deliverer will save them from that guilty judgment of separation from God. This was thier faith, inasmuch as it is our faith that He will return.

Yes, and it is this faith which saved them, Not obeying the law.

--- One only has to abide by the rules and regulations of the law, either God's Law or societal law, to be considered a law abiding citizen. They who looked forward to their Savior, sought to be obedient to that which God says was His ways, in the very same way that we see faith and not works as the basis of final salvation. They had but the Law to show them God's ways, we have the Spirit of adoption. Indeed we, they of the Law or us of faith, are not perfect, seeing that we are naturally children of the rebellion. Perfection only comes when we have been transformed. They had faith in a future Messiah, and that is what made them, just as we are obedient to the Spirit, obedient to the Law as their tutor.

Back and forth.

1. The law showed them, as it shows us, we need a savior. because all have sinned.
2. The law showed them, as it does us, What it is God wants, and what he desires us not to do, because doing those things hurt us and those around us.
3. They were saved by faith, we are saved by faith, everyone has always been saved by faith. No one has ever been saved by obeying the law.

I repeat, the works of the Law NEVER SAVED ANYONE, seeing that is why they were found guilty and went to Hades (Paradise, Abraham's Bosom). To be saved is to say that one has been delivered from the eternal judgment of everlasting separation from God awaiting those on the left side of the Great White Throne. And again, and they were saved (delivered, rescued) from Hades by their faith in the Christ. [/quote]

 

[cfultz3]

EG,

You said: I never said he went to hell
My intent in making that distinction was for all to understand the difference, it was not meant to imply you said or thought this.

 

[jimmydiggs]

cfultz, I'm surprised you liked my post. I was kind of criticizing you.

 

[TheAristocat]

Technically, the offender was guilty from the time of the offense until the time the sacrifice was offered, but after the sacrifice he was forgiven and was in good standing of keeping the Law.

That's quite a long post, and admittedly I didn't read it all. I just wanted to address this with a couple of relevant passages. The first looks at sin offerings (sacrifices that were meant to atone for sins and cleanse the Israelites of sin). And the next shows us the role of faith in the Old Testament.

Leviticus 12:2, 8 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. [...] And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

How many of us would say that child birth is a sin which requires blood atonement? That phrase "sin offering" can be translated as "purification offering" because it dealt with ceremonial purification. Notice 2. e) at this link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon Even before I found that out I had gotten the distinct impression from my studies that these atoning sacrifices - like the cleansing immersions - dealt with ceremonial cleansing only. I don't believe these "sin" offerings ever affected us on a spiritual level. I believe that was entirely up to God. And we see that when God forgives David before he offers a sin offering:

2 Samuel 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.

If there seems to be a blending and confusion of the concepts of ceremonial atonement/cleansing and Christ's spiritually cleansing blood then I believe it was only so to act as a close parallel to instruct us about sin and its consequences. Now concerning faith:

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Oh my sweet heavenly muffins!! Look at how much our Bible has changed throughout the years! Look at all those errors and inconsistencies! Good thing Mohammed saved us from all of these contradictions with that new fangled enlightenment of his. But, honestly, notice a trend? Faith hasn't changed one bit.

In short, my belief is that those "atoning" sacrifices and "sin" offerings were only so by name and that their effects were entirely enclosed within a ceremonial system. I haven't worked out everything just yet, and I certainly could be wrong on those conclusions I have come to. However, I believe the evidence leads to Christ both in the New and Old Testaments and not to the animal sacrifices.