Do we need to belong to a church?

[psychomom]

I guess when most people think of church we thing in terms of what it looks like and how it functions. I do not believe that church is a one man show who preaches and teaches all the time. The bible is clear about the gifts given to the church by the Holy Spirit (but that is another post for another time). So what many are saying concerning church is not just a few believers gathering together, there is a leadership of every church and if there isn't then is not that against the purpose of having a Pastor ie. shepherd/overseer. I am not talking about the way a church operates or the order of it's service or money. Why did God give us pastors, so lead his sheep? Maybe I should have arranged things a different way.

I probably have this messed up (apologies if so ), but isn't the pastor's job shepherding the sheep?
We have a board of elders who have more say in the running of things than the pastor does, although he certainly has a voice. And the elders have guys they have to answer to, etc.

I always feel bad for pastors who have to do all the teaching and all the caring for the flock and make all the leadership decisions. Recipe for burnout, and not really Biblical, yeah?

 

[Angela53510]

I attend a church where everyone is encouraged to find their gift and then find a ministry where they can use it. We have fellowships by age, by gender, by interest and that includes a pray meeting for all. The pastor is an incredible preacher, it is a joy to hear his insight and application of the Word of God.

I wake up joyful each Sunday, knowing I am going to a place that worships God, and I have so much fellowship with so many incredible Christians. Many are former missionaries, and everyone has found an area where they can use their gifts for the furthering of God's Kingdom.

Not every church body is like this. The last church I attended gave great lip service to fellowship, but the pastor became an ego-maniac, and would not let anyone do anything without his permission. He drove most of the church away. I still remain friends with many of those people, and we meet for coffee or a meal. That is also part of my church experience - loving my friends in Christ.

I am also happy to be in a denomination that preaches the gospel and cares for people. I do not think a church building is for everyone, and so many churches have gone astray, looking for numbers or a big show. I searched for humility and kindness and a love for God, and I was fortunate to find it.

I think that being a lone Christian is not possible. We learn and grow by being in relationship with God and others. Sometimes it is iron sharpening iron, but mostly it is food delivered after surgery, or a meal in fellowship with the people of God. I love music, and so the worship part of the service is a highlight. But after our service we have coffee and generally no one leaves for an hour after the service. That is always a special time, as we catch up and share our struggles and our victories.

 

[Stephen63]

Many people say I don't go to church, some say God took them away from the church. From what I read this is not sound in the scriptures. Bible says God gave us Pastors after his own heart (Jer 3:15 Other passages that speak about the pastor Jer 10:21, 12:10, 22:22, 23:. In the NT talks about the gifts Christ gave to the church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors, and Teachers Eph 4:10-15. There is scripture relating to the character of the Pastor/church leaders. Yet many do not attend for reasons other than not being physically able to. Or living to far away with no ride to town. There is the argument that a building is not a church but in scripture we will find that the church not only relates to the people but also the place they gather to meet.

I would like to hear your views without bashing each other or having personal debates, just give your view please.

Acts 14:21-23 [SUP]21 [/SUP]And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, [SUP]22 [/SUP]Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Titus 1:5-11 [SUP]5 [/SUP]For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: [SUP]6 [/SUP]If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [SUP]8 [/SUP]But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; [SUP]9 [/SUP]Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [SUP]11 [/SUP]Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

The apostles ordained elders over all the congregations, whether they were in homes or in synagogues. This helps us to see that Christians should not only gather as congregations, but have a leader/shepherd to minister to them as well. These early churches were young and needed leadership to keep them together in unity and keep out false doctrine.
Today's churches are no different. Good leadership is still needed to keep order in the body of Christ, especially the way false doctrine is infiltrating many congregations.
I understand some who leave their church due to irresponsible leaders. But those that leave need to find a good church. Sure, four or five of you can gather together for fellowship, but what will happen when there is no leader over the group? The same thing that happens in the Bible Discussion Forum, and in the Bible Study chat room. Every time there is differences of opinion, they will be division and arguments. If there is not a qualified leader in the group, you may have some praise and worship, but you won't learn much.

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

I haven't read the OP. But, definitely we need to go to church. It is not needed for salvation ( i got saved in my bedroom). But we need to be around like kind. For edification or encouragement and corporate praise and worship is just way different than being alone. Find one that preaches the cross and not socialism. I mean handing out a water bottle to a dying man does what. What he needs is the cross preached to him.

 

[savedNblessed]

Many people say I don't go to church, some say God took them away from the church. From what I read this is not sound in the scriptures. Bible says God gave us Pastors after his own heart (Jer 3:15 Other passages that speak about the pastor Jer 10:21, 12:10, 22:22, 23:. In the NT talks about the gifts Christ gave to the church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors, and Teachers Eph 4:10-15. There is scripture relating to the character of the Pastor/church leaders. Yet many do not attend for reasons other than not being physically able to. Or living to far away with no ride to town. There is the argument that a building is not a church but in scripture we will find that the church not only relates to the people but also the place they gather to meet.

I would like to hear your views without bashing each other or having personal debates, just give your view please.

"God gave us jobs that keeps us busy five days a week. So in return we must go to His house at least one day of the week, to thank Him." My grandfather's words. Makes sense to me I love going to the Lord's house!!

 

[crossnote]

I guess when most people think of church we thing in terms of what it looks like and how it functions. I do not believe that church is a one man show who preaches and teaches all the time. The bible is clear about the gifts given to the church by the Holy Spirit (but that is another post for another time). So what many are saying concerning church is not just a few believers gathering together, there is a leadership of every church and if there isn't then is not that against the purpose of having a Pastor ie. shepherd/overseer. I am not talking about the way a church operates or the order of it's service or money. Why did God give us pastors, so lead his sheep? Maybe I should have arranged things a different way.

I think us 'protestants' get mighty nervous when you mention a 'leader/shepherd' as it drums up images of a Pope Pastor or cult leader.Yes, the pastor is to be a shepherd feeding the lambs and a servant...as we all are to do.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Many people say I don't go to church, some say God took them away from the church. From what I read this is not sound in the scriptures. Bible says God gave us Pastors after his own heart (Jer 3:15 Other passages that speak about the pastor Jer 10:21, 12:10, 22:22, 23:. In the NT talks about the gifts Christ gave to the church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors, and Teachers Eph 4:10-15. There is scripture relating to the character of the Pastor/church leaders.

A better term is "overseer" (KJV uses "bishop" because of the influence of the Church of England). What we have are seminary trained nicolaitians that parrot what they have been taught to parrot, with flocks that sit and soak it up. I would suggest that's why a near unanimity of the "church" has become bible illiterate and is given over to the pop-eschatologies of either partial preterism or futurism.

Yet many do not attend for reasons other than not being physically able to. Or living to far away with no ride to town. There is the argument that a building is not a church but in scripture we will find that the church not only relates to the people but also the place they gather to meet.

If memory serves, 20 billion dollars a year is squandered on building and maintaining church buildings in the U.S. alone, which could otherwise be spent helping others. The archaeological evidence suggests that the early church met in homes. Additionally it was an every-member-function ecclesia, not a bunch of people occupying pews and trying to stay awake to some guy yacking at them from a pulpit. Or worse, loud microphones and the shenanigans that go on in some churches.

I would like to hear your views without bashing each other or having personal debates, just give your view please.

I recommend you Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola, who offers a pretty good idea as to what happened to the ecclesia, and what can be done to resurrect it.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Many people do not know the Word of God and one place where they will find 'some truth' is in a church. Why I say 'some truth' is that most churches differs with their doctrines and teachings and with only one true truth, there should only be one church as opposed to about 26,000 different churches around the world today. People who have gathered enough knowledge regarding the truth can then move to the church which presents the truth. The earnest seeker need to strive to find and study the doctrines of the church to see if it is in line with the Word of God. If it is not, move to the next church and start from the beginning. Searching for the truth in churches will be an arduous task as each church will defend their doctrines and teachings. Smaller bible study groups have more success in studying the Word of God as no church doctrines have to be followed. These people realize that most of the churches today are not teaching the whole truth and for us to go to heaven will mean that we have to strive and exercise the truth. The foundation of God's Word is His Ten Commandments as it is recorded in Exodus 20 of the Bible, all ten of them and not nine, as most churches only obey nine.

 

[ladylynn]

I've been on both sides of this after watching the wars within the church walls. Problems in church stem often from immature christians who do not understand how yet to love God and the brethren before themselves. I went through a divorce and that has lots of shame and embarrassment attached for a good ol Baptist. Not to mention I was part of the immature christian group for years before being humbled by divorce pain and sorrow. (pride is hidden in so much of what we do)

I'm glad "now" the Lord put the verse about forsaking not the assembling of yourselves together... It kept me from staying within my own 4 walls each Sunday. We need each other and to be exhorted in the faith for a well balanced life. We are stronger together and we have a God given need for fellowship and to reach out to the lost in our community. Some of us have a human tendency to isolate so we won't be rejected. satan must love when we fear and avoid people. (the fear of men brings a snare) It stops evangelism and reaching the lost, and it stops exhortation, encourgement in the body of Christ.
We need more than computer fellowship even though CC is one of God's tools for Christian fellowship.
Just look how many of us come to CC. We desire fellowship even when we r home and get some free time.

Some years ago our family reasoned "After a week of work out in the world, the last thing we want to do is go to a church and deal with more foolishness." But the Lord said to NOT FORSAKE THE ASSEMBLING OF YOURSELVES TOGETHER... Rats!!! I couldnt deny that Bible vs no matter how much I wanted to back then.

Its been almost 4yrs not being a regular church member accountable or loved in the body of believers. It is not an easy place to be but I needed to learn God is always dependable even when people r not. But God's Word says to find the right church like TruthFromFrank said can be an "arduous" task... But a must. God gives time to heal and then sends us out to do what He said.

God will not call us to do what He has not equiped us to do. I'm headed to a new church i researched over the internet, listened to the preacher and read the faith statement. looked at the pictures on line of the people and read about the outreaches it supports.

It seems many people r also on this road of wondering if we need to go to a church. Thank you iwant2serve for posting this topic. It is timely. many of us r seeking this question out personally and reading the posts here has given exhortation and encouragement to me.

 

[Stephen63]

A better term is "overseer" (KJV uses "bishop" because of the influence of the Church of England). What we have are seminary trained nicolaitians that parrot what they have been taught to parrot, with flocks that sit and soak it up. I would suggest that's why a near unanimity of the "church" has become bible illiterate and is given over to the pop-eschatologies of either partial preterism or futurism.

I agree about the use of Bishop. This term is now being used in several denominations, including my own. I don't like it. It seems to give those who have it a more "authoritative" look and feel. To me, such terms promote a modern-day "Pharisee-ism". It leads the leader/shepherd away from the proper bondservant/servant-of-all attitude that we all should exemplify.
I also agree with the "parrot training". Many young ministers come out of seminary with nothing more than a "programmed" approach to theology than with the ability to think on their own and to study to show themselves approved.
I don't agree with pop-eschatologies statement, though. The majority of church membership today doesn't even have a clue about what their organization believes when it comes to these things.

If memory serves, 20 billion dollars a year is squandered on building and maintaining church buildings in the U.S. alone, which could otherwise be spent helping others. The archaeological evidence suggests that the early church met in homes. Additionally it was an every-member-function ecclesia, not a bunch of people occupying pews and trying to stay awake to some guy yacking at them from a pulpit. Or worse, loud microphones and the shenanigans that go on in some churches.

Luke 7:2-5 [SUP]2 [/SUP]And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: [SUP]5 [/SUP]For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

The reason why the churches did not have a centralized building was because they couldn't afford it. When you read Paul's epistles, you'll find that most of the churches were indeed poor, especially the church at Jerusalem. I do agree that a lot of money is wasted in and on churches and their functions.Most church monies are spent "inward" instead of "outwards".

 

[1still_waters]

As a way to avoid "going to church", people will say "the church" isn't a building. They'll say "the church" is a gathering of believers. Which is fine. But these people who do the semantic dance, often NEVER gather with believers regularly.

So as soon as you hear the "church isn't a building speech", you pretty much have their view on church.

 

[zone]

I recommend you Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola, who offers a pretty good idea as to what happened to the ecclesia, and what can be done to resurrect it.

Frank Viola?

why doesn't this surprise me

.........


TUESDAY, JUNE 01, 2010
The Other Side of Emergent:
The New Apostolic Reformation

"Religious leadership must end its intellectual and imaginative failure to think through what it is doing in the light of the new emerging cosmology, which is hospitable to spirit-matter theories and mindbody experiences."
- Leonard Sweet[1]



Today is the launching of a new book, co-authored by Leonard Sweet and Frank Viola. This marks the open marriage of the Emergent movement with the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).

Sweet and Viola's book, Jesus Manifesto, is subtitled "Restoring the Supremacy and Sovereignty of Jesus Christ," and it pushes the envelope on redefining Jesus, including "You can be a Jesus Manifest."[2] A quick glance at the lineup of key endorsers for this book includes a list of who's who in Emergent, the Latter Rain cult, neoevangelicalism and the New Apostolic Reformation.

In recent posts on this blog we have noticed that emerging church leader Leonard Sweet has links to the NAR.[3] The co-author of his book, Frank Viola, also has roots in the NAR. He has been connected with the House2House group, a movement that is ostensibly about "house" churches, but in reality is concerned with building the networking apostolic cellular model of church for the purpose of building the kingdom of God on earth. This is the same Dominionist goal that is characteristic of the NAR: "This amazing network of churches is rapidly transitioning as a network to embrace the simple church models that the Lord is blessing all around the world," leading to the "transforming work of God in bringing people to Christ. . . leading to dramatic advances of the Kingdom of God."[4] John Arnott of the Toronto "Laughing Revival" has been a notable contributor to the House2House magazine.[5]


etc etc

Herescope: The Other Side of Emergent: < click

 

[Cobus]

Is it only me or are there someone else out there that experience this.....

When I am awakened at three in the morning by God, to go to my living room and read Bible.... Even as I walk down the passage to the living room, I am NOT ALONE! We are at least already Two, who knows maybe Three?

Then I take up my Bible, and I am DEFINATELY NOT alone.... In fact I am in a SCHOOL and I am the only SILENT one. When I open my Bible, that very moment I am in CHURCH! I am asembled with Father, Son and Holy Spirit. ALL the Prophets and ALL the Apostles... In fact the WHOLE OF THE HOLY CHURCH is with me.

God said the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets... That means where there is ONE PROPHET all prophets are there. And God said if there are two or three GATHERED in HIS NAME... And His name is: THE WORD OF GOD!!!

I gather with ALL Holy, Godly church in HIS NAME, HIS WORD... Jesus said HE will maintain the church and present it to HIMSELF without spot or wrinkle... Only God can ADD to His church. THAT is the church I go too.

Did God not say.... Draw near to me, and I will draw near to you... IF God draws near to me, I am in church! And if God adds me to His church, I cannot add or assemble without HIM doing the assembling.... God knows my heart, and HE leads me in Truth to be ONE with Him... And ALL who are made ONE with Him is in HIS Church...

As you all know me quite well, I am very different than most, but I believe I am that way, because of the Work God does on me. What is the use of going to a church if you do not agree? God said if there is strife in a houe that house will not stand... There is NO strife in God, NO sin, and no differences... God makes ONE PERFECT CHURCH! With Jesus as the HEAD.

 

[BlessedLovedByGod]

Church is not a stop over when u got free time. Church is a house of God where u need to belong. I dont want to be a hopping christian forever. I used to attend different churches and I dont know anybody. I was just there when the praise and worship is over I go home. I cant talk with anyone. And I always feel like a stranger. I feel that my faith is not moving from level 1. When I got problem the more I feel that Im alone. When I got lazy the more that I dont go anymore.
It took me a long time to realize that I do need to belong to a church. Now I found home in a Christian Evangelical House Church. I have a reason to keep going to church. I am an usher in our church. It was an overwhelming experience to do my little part for God. I know almost everybody. After service we have our mini discussion regarding our topic for that sunday or wednesday. WE HAVE SERIES OF BIBLE STUDIES TO HELP US GROW AND ENCOURAGE US MORE TO ATTEND. We have meetings, plannings, we go out, have fun. We care and love for each other. We are a family building up each other. As Christians we are always tested and we needed each other. To lift each other up.

THIS IS THE CHURCH THAT I BELONG TO: COME TO JESUS COMMUNITY CHURCH, A PLACE WHERE NO ONE IS A STRANGER


1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

 

[PeteWaldo]

I agree about the use of Bishop. This term is now being used in several denominations, including my own. I don't like it. It seems to give those who have it a more "authoritative" look and feel. To me, such terms promote a modern-day "Pharisee-ism". It leads the leader/shepherd away from the proper bondservant/servant-of-all attitude that we all should exemplify.
I also agree with the "parrot training". Many young ministers come out of seminary with nothing more than a "programmed" approach to theology than with the ability to think on their own and to study to show themselves approved.
I don't agree with pop-eschatologies statement, though. The majority of church membership today doesn't even have a clue about what their organization believes when it comes to these things.

Just because an individual doesn't have an interest in eschatology, or it isn't preached in their church, doesn't mean eschatology doesn't have a tremendous impact on the rest of a church's doctrine, as well as the life and health of a church. Simply consider the anti-Zionism and Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism, that springs from the replacement theology of folks believing that Revelation was almost entirely fulfilled in the first century. In my opinion there are few things that provide a greater definer and discriminator regarding the health of the "church", also providing a definer of those of the world, than the subject of the return of Jews to Israel. It is interesting to note that none of the anti-Zionists in this forum seemed able bring themselves to respond to the simple request I made in the last paragraph in the forum thread at this link:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/60682-return-jews-israel-13.html#post985301

Luke 7:2-5

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: [SUP]5 [/SUP]For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

Hbr 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
TEMPLE OF GOD

The reason why the churches did not have a centralized building was because they couldn't afford it. When you read Paul's epistles, you'll find that most of the churches were indeed poor, especially the church at Jerusalem. I do agree that a lot of money is wasted in and on churches and their functions.Most church monies are spent "inward" instead of "outwards".

If folks were out in the world fulfilling the great commission there wouldn't be a need for a big church building. Particularly in the connected world we live in today. How can a large group encourage other than an individual yacking from a pulpit, rather than an every-member-functioning body? Home based bible study groups conform to the first century ecclesia model, not big buildings and congregations.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Luke 7:2-5 [SUP]2 [/SUP]And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: [SUP]5 [/SUP]For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

That's not the temple that Christ built for us in three days, through His crucifixion, death and resurrection. Through the ONE sacrifice for sins FOREVER.
TEMPLE OF GOD

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[crossnote]

Looking at some of the posts here on CC (including mine) I think a congregation would provide safety esp. for the younger believers.

 

[zone]

Just because an individual doesn't have an interest in eschatology, or it isn't preached in their church, doesn't mean eschatology doesn't have a tremendous impact on the rest of a church's doctrine, as well as the life and health of a church. Simply consider the anti-Zionism and Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism, that springs from the replacement theology of folks believing that Revelation was almost entirely fulfilled in the first century. In my opinion there are few things that provide a greater definer and discriminator regarding the health of the "church", also providing a definer of those of the world, than the subject of the return of Jews to Israel.



It is interesting to note that none of the anti-Zionists in this forum seemed able bring themselves to respond to the simple request I made in the last paragraph in the forum thread at this link:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/60682-return-jews-israel-13.html#post985301

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/60682-return-jews-israel-14.html#post993810 < click

i keep responding to your babble.
but you never engage.

why is that Pete?

peoples from the four corners of the earth Gog & Magog have slaughtered their way into the Land.

and? i know you belong to the Synagogue of Satan.
what's new.

were you at Florida's Pam Geller/we-hate-muslims-America-give-us-20-MILLION-dollars-a-day GALA event?

 

[zone]

If folks were out in the world fulfilling the great commission there wouldn't be a need for a big church building. Particularly in the connected world we live in today. How can a large group encourage other than an individual yacking from a pulpit

ya. antichurch....big surprise.

ya you're fulfilling the great commis.....well....the teeny commission because your gospel doesn't include jews.

your gospel is Dual Covenant and Clash of Civilizations.

eck

 

[PeteWaldo]

Looking at some of the posts here on CC (including mine) I think a congregation would provide safety esp. for the younger believers.

I agree with that. Indeed the term "Ecclesia" indicates an assembly of the "called out".
I just don't think that building and air conditioning dedicated structures, at the expense of 20 billion dollars a year in the U.S. alone, would be what Jesus had in mind when He made His people His temple. Particularly when there are folks hurting around the world that could be helped with that wasted wealth.



The book "Miraculous Movements" gives us a good idea as to where the "church" is.