Have there been persecuted sects with multiple witnesses who fabricated miracles?

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R

rakovsky

Guest
#1
One of the foundational arguments that Jesus' post-Resurrection physical appearances were real events and not fabrications is that the apostles underwent persecution and risked being killed for their beliefs.
Let me explain the argument:
(1)The early Christian writings portray Jesus' appearances and birth from a virgin as real physical events, not delusions or allegories. Matthew, Luke, and John specify physical aspects of Jesus' appearances, like the women at the tomb holding Jesus' feet. Mark implies that the appearances were physical, because the tomb was empty and the boy there said that Jesus was going to Galilee, which means He was traveling through physical space instead of simply appearing. And Mark has plenty of miracle stories, although they are not as extreme as a transfigured resurrection. Paul implies the belief in the virgin birth when he writes that Jesus was "born of a woman", which reflects another belief in an extreme miracle of Jesus. Based on the clear physical nature of these alleged extreme miracles, along with the fact that the Bible claims that Jesus made the physical appearances to eleven apostles, they were not delusions. This leaves open the question of whether they were fabricated.

(2) Nor were the stories of Christ's extreme miracles likely made up decades later, because Paul implied the virgin birth in his epistle, which was written about 10-15 years after the Resurrection. The extreme miracles show multiple attestation through the gospel books spread by the Christian community and there is no record of a Christian sect splitting off and claiming that the claims of Jesus' virgin birth and physical resurrection were new fabrications.

(3) For the claims of the extreme miracles, we must rely on the witness of about 11 apostles and a few women. The Bible does not specify whether the later appearances of Jesus to 70 followers or 500 followers were physical. We also must trust them that Mary was a virgin and that they didn't remove Jesus' body from the grave, eg. by taking the body before the guards got there on Saturday or by overpowering the tomb's guards at night.

(4) Consequently, the main reason that we know that the apostles were not lying and these main miracles were real is because people would not make up miracle stories for their sect if they risked being killed for their membership in a cult. The apostles would not risk dying for a religion that they believed was false, and so they wouldn't make up extreme miracles for it.

Is this argument correct? Were there any other sects wherein:

(A) around a dozen followers
(B) made up miracle stories and
(C) voluntarily risked a serious likelihood of dying for their sect?

Some sects that may or may not qualify:

1. Shia Muslims: They claimed miracles in their tradition and at times were persecuted by the Sunni Muslims.

2. Sufi Muslims: Miracles are an important aspect of Sufiism and at times they have been persecuted.

3. The Cathars: They claimed miracles and were mortally persecuted by the medieval Inquisition

4. A persecuted sect formed around Lo Hwai, a prophet in 18th century Shantung who allegedly performed extreme miracles like flying.
See: Sectarianism and Religious Persecution in China, By Jan Jakob Maria Groot

5. The Mormons: Joseph Smith and "three witnesses" experienced an angel giving them gold plates in the woods. One witness was away when the angel appeared, but he admitted to seeing the plates. One witness said the angel had no form or shape, the other witness told numerous other people that he didn't see the plates with his real eyes but his spiritual ones. (Three Witnesses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Joseph Smith was later killed, but I doubt that the three witnesses faced a likely prospect of death.

Out of these five sects, the first four need to be fleshed out more to see if they qualify as appropriate analogies. For example, how many witnesses saw their alleged miracles and are there no natural explanations for them? The last sect listed doesn't appear to qualify (eg. J.Smith was only 1 persecuted witness and the question demands at least 9).

Do you know more about these first four sects and can you think of others that might qualify?
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#2
You say sects in reference to other religions.
You refer to the apostles as being in a 'cult'.
Yet another example that you are misusing words.

Sects would typically be of the same religion, just a variation.
Cults are religious groups that deviate in teaching from Christian/biblical teaching while trying to attach themselves to Christianity, such as Mormons. So the Apostles were not joining a cult as they were the foundation of the Christian church that cults would eventually try and attach to.
 
H

Humiliatus

Guest
#3
First clarification; during the time of Mary and Joseph, arranged marriage was common, the young Lady was given to the future grooms family after a dowry was paid… the young women lived with her new family (future in-laws) prior to marriage for several reasons… (I use to get paid to explain this…lol) point to this is her future in-laws, when introducing her would refer to her as their “virgin” daughter… which denoted to the guest she was promised in marriage to their son…. She was the equivalent of today’s fiancé…

There is also the word itself to consider “virgin”… the Bible has been translated so, so many times… check the words meaning from Arabic, Greek, Coptic , Latin and a slew of other languages it’s a real eye opener…

So considering the time the text was written the word “virgin” could have about 8 different meanings, not just “she who has not …”

Here’s a real stumper… ever read the Apocryphal Books ( aka Deuterocanonical ) or the Ethiopian Bible?
Strange stories … how her mother Ann gave her to the temple and that’s how she became part of Josephs life as he was appointed her caretaker and then became his wife…(parents would have still referred to her as “virgin” daughter til married) or how Joseph took Mary to “ one who knew” in the temple when she was pregnant to check her hymen, it was still intact ( this of course was before the angle talked to Joseph… Ethiopian bible) stories abound about this, some of the accounts are as old as many of the books in the new testament or older…

All in all… I have read, studied and taught biblical history, bible translations and religious theory… in the end I found it really does not matter… Christ was born!…Hallelujah… and that’s the gist of all this hoopla… the rest is just religion…
 
R

rakovsky

Guest
#4
You say sects in reference to other religions.
You refer to the apostles as being in a 'cult'.
Yet another example that you are misusing words.

Sects would typically be of the same religion, just a variation.
Cults are religious groups that deviate in teaching from Christian/biblical teaching while trying to attach themselves to Christianity, such as Mormons. So the Apostles were not joining a cult as they were the foundation of the Christian church that cults would eventually try and attach to.
Hello, Ugly.
Actually, I said that as part of the argument, "people would not make up miracle stories for their sect if they risked being killed for their membership in a cult." I did not say Christianity was a cult.

But in any case, cults need not attach themselves to Bible teaching. For example, in the ancient Middle East there was the "cult of Tammuz", which worshiped a pagan god.
 
R

rakovsky

Guest
#5
First clarification; during the time of Mary and Joseph, arranged marriage was common, the young Lady was given to the future grooms family after a dowry was paid… the young women lived with her new family (future in-laws) prior to marriage for several reasons… (I use to get paid to explain this…lol) point to this is her future in-laws, when introducing her would refer to her as their “virgin” daughter… which denoted to the guest she was promised in marriage to their son…. She was the equivalent of today’s fiancé…

There is also the word itself to consider “virgin”… the Bible has been translated so, so many times… check the words meaning from Arabic, Greek, Coptic , Latin and a slew of other languages it’s a real eye opener…

So considering the time the text was written the word “virgin” could have about 8 different meanings, not just “she who has not …”

Here’s a real stumper… ever read the Apocryphal Books ( aka Deuterocanonical ) or the Ethiopian Bible?
Strange stories … how her mother Ann gave her to the temple and that’s how she became part of Josephs life as he was appointed her caretaker and then became his wife…(parents would have still referred to her as “virgin” daughter til married) or how Joseph took Mary to “ one who knew” in the temple when she was pregnant to check her hymen, it was still intact ( this of course was before the angle talked to Joseph… Ethiopian bible) stories abound about this, some of the accounts are as old as many of the books in the new testament or older…
Hello, Humiliata.

Yes, I know what you mean, however in the New Testament it clearly tells the reader that Mary was a virgin in the sense that we commonly think of it today. This is what made it a "sign", as Isaiah says that the birth from the maid/virgin is a "sign". Maids or young women give birth all the time, so that itself would not be unusual. And as I pointed out, Paul calls Jesus the one "born of a woman". If it was a normal birth and Joseph was His real father, there would not be any point in making this expression.

All in all… I have read, studied and taught biblical history, bible translations and religious theory… in the end I found it really does not matter… Christ was born!…Hallelujah… and that’s the gist of all this hoopla… the rest is just religion…
Yes, I understand. The virgin birth could be described as an allegory or a misunderstanding. But the problem is that if the virgin birth was just a story made up by the Christian leadership and accepted into the gospels and accepted by St. Paul, then it becomes very open to question whether the story of Jesus' resurrection was fabricated or just an allegory too. But I am sure that the Virgin Birth and clearly physical resurrection stories weren't just allegories, so that leaves open the question of whether they were fabricated.

That certainly makes a huge difference if your church teaching and salvation is considered to rely to a big extent on whether Jesus had a physical resurrection.
 
R

rakovsky

Guest
#6
In the first 100 Google results on "Cathars" and "miracles", the only miracle account I found was:
1268. Armanno Pungilupo buried in Ferrara cathedral. Miracles are reported by visitors to his tomb. Some want him made a saint. The Inquisition has evidence that he was a Cathar perfect. Cathar Slide Show
The Catholic Church then rejected Pungilupo and the possibility of his sainthood.


That leaves the Sufis, Shias, and Lo Hwai as possible candidates, but I have difficulty finding out more about their miracles and persecution.