Evangelical Worship - are we heading for a crash

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
M

Miri

Guest
#1
#1


Article found on Internet - makes interesting reading

https://worthilymagnify.com/2014/05/19/crash/



Last week I spent a couple of days attending the National Worship Leader Conference,
hosted by Worship Leader Magazine, featuring many well-known speakers and worship
leaders. The conference was held about 15 minutes down the road from me, so it was
an opportunity I couldn’t pass up. I’m glad I went.

I met some new people, heard some thought-provoking teaching, enjoyed some good
meals and conversations with worship leader friends, and experienced in-person
some of the modern worship trends that are becoming the norm in evangelicalism.

It was eye-opening in many ways.
Over the last few days I’ve been processing some of what I saw and heard.
Worship Leader Magazine does a fantastic job of putting on a worship conference that
will expose the attendees to a wide variety of resources, techniques, workshops, songs,
new artists, approaches, teachings, and perspectives. I thought of Mark Twain’s famous
quote “If you don’t like the weather in New England, just wait 5 minutes”. The same
could be said of this conference. It’s an intentionally eclectic mix of different speakers,
teachers, worship leaders, and performers from different traditions, theological convictions,
and worship leading philosophies. You’ll hear and see some stuff you like and agree
with, and then 5 minutes later you’ll hear and see some stuff you don’t agree with at all.

It’s good for worship leaders to experience this kind of wide-exposure from time to time,
and the National Worship Leader Conference certainly provides it. Yet throughout the
conference, at different sessions, with different worship leaders, from different circles,
using different approaches, and leading with different bands, I picked up on a common theme.
It’s been growing over the last few decades. And to be honest, it’s a troubling theme.
And if this current generation of worship leaders doesn’t change this theme, then corporate
worship in evangelicalism really is headed for a major crash.

It’s the theme of performancism. The worship leader as the performer. The congregation
as the audience. The sanctuary as the concert hall. It really is a problem. It really is a thing.
And we really can’t allow it to become the norm.Worship leaders, we must identify and
kill performancism while we can.

It’s not rocket science. Sing songs people know (or can learn easily). Sing them in congregational
keys. Sing and celebrate the power, glory, and salvation of God. Serve your congregation.
Saturate them with the word of God. Get your face off the big screen (here’s why). Use your
original songs in extreme moderation (heres’s why). Err on the side of including as many
people as possible in what’s going on. Keep the lights up. Stop talking so much. Don’t let
loops/lights/visuals become your outlet for creativity at the expense of the centrality of the
gospel. Point to Jesus. Don’t draw attention to yourself. Don’t sing songs with bad lyrics
or weak theology. Tailor your worship leading, and the songs you pick, to include the
largest cross-section of your congregation that you can. Lead pastorally.

I am a worship music nerd. I listen to a lot of it. I follow the recent developments. I know
who’s out there (sort of). I try to keep up (it’s not easy). Even I didn’t know most of the songs
that we were supposed to be singing along to at the conference. I tuned out. I sat down.
I Tweeted. I texted my wife. I gave up.

You’re not reading the ramblings of a curmudgeony guy complaining about all the new-fangled
things the kids are doing these days, with their drums and tom-toms and electric geetars.
You’re reading the heart-cry of a normal guy who’s worried about what worship leaders
are doing to themselves and their congregations. People are tuning out and giving
up and just watching.

This is not a criticism of the National Worship Leader Conference, though I do think they could
make some changes to more intentionally model an approach to worship leading that isn’t so
weighted on the performance side. As I said, the conference exposes us to what’s out there
in the (primarily) evangelical worship world.

It’s what’s out there that’s increasingly a problem.
Worship leaders: step back. Take a deep breath. Think about it. Do we really want to go down
this road? It will result in a crash. Back-up. Recalibrate. Serve your congregations, point them
to Jesus, help them sing along and sing with confidence. Get out the way, for God’s sake.



 
M

Miri

Guest
#2
#2
Um makes you wonder, are we true or false at times in what we
do in church.

I hope I am true in this respect, but have to say
that as a musician who played the saxophone in worship team
for a number of years, there were plenty of times when my
focus was on playing the right at the right time and wondering
what it sounded like, instead of worshipping God.


[video=youtube_share;ys4Nx0rNlAM]http://youtu.be/ys4Nx0rNlAM[/video]
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#3
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#3
There's something wrong when church worship has a producer, director, & a professional video studio that mixes the service for video sales. I know dozens won't like it, but Hillsong is exactly what you're talking about, & many churches are following their lead.

All over the US, big churches are hiring professional worship leaders, paying them more money than some pastors get.

How often these "professionals" forget that they are supposed to be ministers of worship, servants of God. Therefore, this scripture applies:

Matthew 20:25-28 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; [SUP]27 [/SUP]And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Thanks for this thread..... This IS a real problem in churches.
 
Last edited:
M

Miri

Guest
#4
#4
Hi Stephen you are exactly right, the worship team is there to be a servant
to the church, not to be worshipped by the church. It takes humility to be
on the worship team, or for that matter to do anything "at front of church".

It is a topic close to the heart of my church at the moment, our new building
project is almost complete.

http://christianchat.com/testimonies/111548-god-has-provided-20-million-church.html

Everyone is at great pains to emphasise the church is going to serve the community,
not the other way around.
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#5
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#5
20 million euros..... good luck with it NOT becoming that..... slowly changing ministers & board members will eventually destroy this plan, for more people will want these positions as the church increases in number because of their desire for power.

IDK if you believe this, but powerful organizations will try to take your church over because of its size & influence. This will be a top-down takeover, getting board positions so they can appoint loyal followers to key ministerial positions to pervert doctrine & change worship from spiritual to carnal. In a manner of a few years, a good church is changed to accept universal salvation that requires no change from them thus spiritually killing them.

Not to be a Negative Nancy, but I don't see how this process hasn't already begun. Huge building projects are usually a part of it. :(
 
M

Miri

Guest
#6
#6
Hopefully it won't happen, it's an independent Pentecostal Church - there are no
board members. Just the same four pasters and a group of elders who form the
leadership. Then there are a handful of full time workers and hundreds of volunteers.

The church was established in the 1930's. :)
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#7
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#7
Miri said:
Hopefully it won't happen, it's an independent Pentecostal Church - there are no
board members. Just the same four pasters and a group of elders who form the
leadership. Then there are a handful of full time workers and hundreds of volunteers.

The church was established in the 1930's. :)
Click to expand...
Great beginnings doesn't mean great endings.
Judges 2:7-12 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: [SUP]12 [/SUP]And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.
 
santuzza

santuzza

Senior Member
#8
Feb 12, 2013
1,609
38
48
#8
This has been a major problem in the evangelical church for a long time now. I don't necessarily see a solution to it as there are a lot of congregants who actually like the performance approach -- mainly new Christians who have not be rooted in good worship music and our young people who have gone to contemporary music only churches and have never heard a traditional hymn in their lives. This is why I believe that blended worship is the only way to go.

But that's my soapbox...
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#9
Jun 30, 2015
24,681
13,368
113
#9
Regarding performancism, I get it... as a musician and recently, a "worship leader", I understand the desire to do the music at a high level of excellence. After many years as a backup musician, I was asked recently to lead. I was quite apprehensive in the days leading up, wanting to do the job well. Then I sensed the Lord calling me to sit and pray... He said to me, "You aren't the worship leader on Sunday."

(pause)

"The Holy Spirit is the worship leader."

All the apprehension left, and though it returned briefly just before the service, it wasn't overwhelming.

So as I continue to lead occasionally, I remember that I am not the worship leader. It's wonderfully freeing from the attitude of performance! And, truth be told, I'm not good enough to impress anyone anyways! :)
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#10
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#10
Dino246 said:
Regarding performancism, I get it... as a musician and recently, a "worship leader", I understand the desire to do the music at a high level of excellence. After many years as a backup musician, I was asked recently to lead. I was quite apprehensive in the days leading up, wanting to do the job well. Then I sensed the Lord calling me to sit and pray... He said to me, "You aren't the worship leader on Sunday."

(pause)

"The Holy Spirit is the worship leader."

All the apprehension left, and though it returned briefly just before the service, it wasn't overwhelming.

So as I continue to lead occasionally, I remember that I am not the worship leader. It's wonderfully freeing from the attitude of performance! And, truth be told, I'm not good enough to impress anyone anyways! :)
Click to expand...
Paul said it best..... 2 Corinthians 12:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#11
#11
When I went to church as a young boy, worship had more liturgy. In other words, if we had a sermon topic then the songs came from the hymnal on the same topic.

I don't see scripture references in many of the worship songs sung today.

I don't see many of the worship songs bringing me to God and they are basically all saying the same vanilla things because they have run out of ideas after not reading the word because the songs have no depth and the ideas overlap.

We don't open our hymnals anymore.

So the interesting thing is, why have we abandoned the old? Is it not worth it to sing the old songs anymore?

2 Thesalonians 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thesalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thesalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away (g646 ἀποστασία apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Apostasy means to forsake or a defection.

Apostasy

Apostasy (from Greek αποστασία, meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing") is a term generally employed to describe the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_Jewish_terms

With the abandonment of the old hymnals, we're saying that the old songs of the past are not hip enough to bring in a new generation and keep them interested. We could remix the old songs but no one is attempting that. It is an abandonment and the old songs are deemed unworthy and we're replacing worship with songs that don't always say enough or the right things about God. When you can't compete with the world, won't the world say you are unworthy? After all, they can get the same thing and better in the world because they can sin for a season.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#12
#12
Our church most buck the trend then, we often have hymns in the
service and the song choices are usually linked in some way to the service.

We have 3 worship team leaders (all the leaders, musicians and singers are
in a rota for Sunday mornings, but the entire worship team practices together
once a week).

We also have 4 pastors and they tell the worship team leader for that Sunday,
what the theme and scripture references are, they often ask
for specific songs and leave the leader to pick out the rest - based on the
theme for that Sunday.
 
C

coby

Guest
#13
#13
Lol we just put on some songs on youtube in church.
 
Oncefallen

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
#14
Jan 15, 2011
6,030
3,256
113
#14
Chuckt said:
When I went to church as a young boy, worship had more liturgy. In other words, if we had a sermon topic then the songs came from the hymnal on the same topic.

I don't see scripture references in many of the worship songs sung today.

I don't see many of the worship songs bringing me to God and they are basically all saying the same vanilla things because they have run out of ideas after not reading the word because the songs have no depth and the ideas overlap.

We don't open our hymnals anymore.

So the interesting thing is, why have we abandoned the old? Is it not worth it to sing the old songs anymore?

2 Thesalonians 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thesalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thesalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away (g646 ἀποστασία apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Apostasy means to forsake or a defection.

Apostasy

Apostasy (from Greek αποστασία, meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing") is a term generally employed to describe the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_Jewish_terms

With the abandonment of the old hymnals, we're saying that the old songs of the past are not hip enough to bring in a new generation and keep them interested. We could remix the old songs but no one is attempting that. It is an abandonment and the old songs are deemed unworthy and we're replacing worship with songs that don't always say enough or the right things about God. When you can't compete with the world, won't the world say you are unworthy? After all, they can get the same thing and better in the world because they can sin for a season.
Click to expand...
Within worship the new has always replaced the old. When you think about it, most of the "old" hymns were written between 1700 and the early 1900's and when they were "new" obviously they replaced something else.

Interestingly enough, Isaac Watts (credited with over 700 "old" hymns) began writing because he as a teenager was unhappy with the way the English church sang the Psalms in a rather monotonous manner and his father (a deacon in his church) challenged him to give them something better to sing. In time his "new" hymns replaced the old methods and I'm quite sure that in the early 1700's many held the same opinion towards his hymns that you now have towards modern worship songs.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#15
#15
Oncefallen said:
Within worship the new has always replaced the old. When you think about it, most of the "old" hymns were written between 1700 and the early 1900's and when they were "new" obviously they replaced something else.

Interestingly enough, Isaac Watts (credited with over 700 "old" hymns) began writing because he as a teenager was unhappy with the way the English church sang the Psalms in a rather monotonous manner and his father (a deacon in his church) challenged him to give them something better to sing. In time his "new" hymns replaced the old methods and I'm quite sure that in the early 1700's many held the same opinion towards his hymns that you now have towards modern worship songs.
Click to expand...

You our have just reminded me of something from years ago.
A trainee pastor at a previous church managed to obtain a tape of
various hymns. These were sang in the original notation of the day and
great pains had been taken to play the tunes on what would have
been the original instruments, or as close as it was possible to get to.

The hymns sounded nothing like how we think of them today. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.