How would you answer?

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Feb 7, 2015
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#1
Other than merely becoming indignant, and while pounding on a Bible, screaming that "God can do whatever He wants, because God is God!", how would you answer someone who asked you an honest question like this. (And, believe me, IF YOU ACTUALLY DO LISTEN, many people are asking very similar questions.)

I know many of us cannot answer such a question rationally, without just digging our heels into stubborn dogma.... so this question is not for us. It is for the few reasonable people here who care about other people.

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If you cannot find better ways of solving your problems than resorting to violence, we would be very quick to point out the underdeveloped nature of your moral compass. When, however, "God" can find no better way of solving his problems than a resorting to violence; and when his "final solution" to the problem of sin looks more Hitler-esque than holy, we are told we must call it good.

One modern, Calvinistic preacher has said: "It is not an exaggeration to say that the last thing that the accursed sinner should and will hear when he takes his first step into hell, is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding God, because he has rid the earth of him."

In this understanding of "God", you mustn't merely agree internally that all of God's actions are good, but must applaud him for carrying out acts that, if performed by a human, would earn them a life sentence in prison, or worse!

My friends, when your understanding of the holiness of God forces you to lay aside what you know to be moral in favor of what you know to be immoral, there is a very large problem with your concept of God's holiness. If you must, under pain of death, call the actions of a superior force "good", when everything within you knows those actions to be evil, you are not serving the Father Jesus revealed. This sounds far more like North Korea than it does the Kingdom of God.

God's holiness is manifested in his mercy, and in his unwillingness to resort to the methods we resort to. He does not valorize the actions of mad dictators and genocidal maniacs, but contradicts them. How we can condemn the actions of a Hitler, many of whose victims would be understood by the evangelical Christian as having gone straight to hell, and then turn around and praise the "God" who only intensifies what Hitler began, is absolutely beyond me.

You cannot call Hitler bad, and the one who presently tortures his "unsaved" victims' souls good, and keep your moral integrity intact. If Hitler is bad, so is the deity who takes up his mantle once the victim passes into the next life. If Hitler is evil so is hell, and, consequently, so is the "God" who stokes its flames.
 
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wwjd_kilden

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#2
I don't know how I'd answer because I have had similar, if not quite as harsh thoughts myself.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#3
I don't know how I'd answer because I have had similar, if not quite as harsh thoughts myself.
As have most of us who would be honest in our answering. That's why I don't know what to say to him.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#4
I would say, that when 'in and of the world' = all sought for answers, can only
bring worldly analogys, so there can never be any real Spiritual understanding...
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#5
I would say, that when 'in and of the world' = all sought for answers, can only
bring worldly analogys, so there can never be any real Spiritual understanding...
That's a fine "pat" answer that (we think) absolves us of having to clearly give an answer to the question. I, myself, have dodged honest questions with that same appearance of Spirituality for years.

But, although he is younger than us, this man has been a minister for about 15 years, and he is truly in love with Jesus. More so than most people I know.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#6
Willie,

we would never have thought of 'absolving' ourselves in any answer asked of us...
and, would never think of 'dodging' any question, honest or otherwise...
this is not in our world now..,

we only answer you Brother in all honesty for the glory of God...
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#7
Willie,

we would never have thought of 'absolving' ourselves in any answer asked of us...
and, would never think of 'dodging' any question, honest or otherwise...
this is not in our world now..,

we only answer you Brother in all honesty for the glory of God...
And yet we do. You just did. And I, though not wanting to do likewise, honestly have no truthfully sensible reply to write him.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#8
Its not a matter of blind allegiance but an acknowledgement of justice. The so called evil that people attribute to the Lord is not a matter of God being brash but of His obedience to His covenant with Israel. Blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. It reveals His faithfulness to His word.

Now outside of Israel you may point to His dealing with man and cry, "Evil!" But if such men have transgressed His law, and the penalty has been plainly stated, then a sentence is due. That sentence is death. Its the reality of being on the polarity of God. If you are not in light you are in darkness. If you are cold, you are without warmth. These are polarities, and if someone wishes to deny God, to be without Him inevitably they are without all the positive things that are on that side of the polarity.

Now, how do you explain this plain-faced to someone? You don't drop your conscience but you become keenly aware of the righteous demands of the Lord. All fall short of His glory and His heart is revealed in His plan of reconciliation. Jesus Christ dying on the cross and resurrecting on the third day, paying man's penalty for sin. God wants reconciliation, while yet we were sinners.

The implication here is that we question God, who is righteous and say His acts are unrighteous. This puts us on a moral high ground, a foundation that slips. Can man accuse God of evil? He can, but this would be in ignorance to God as judge, the judge that has deemed us guilty. By what standard do we judge God? Subjectively or by His own standards? If they are His own He proves to be innocent. You could make your case against God, but you'd be a hypocrite as you've already fallen short. It still remains, however, that God being the very standard of righteous, stands holy and undefiled.

The point of the article falls flat, because it insinuates the "victims" as innocent. They aren't.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#9
Willie,

you are ascribing a heart to a heart answer as an'absolving', a definition of you own understanding..
this is not our understanding,,,but we do understand,,,

Willie, this is not a we my friend, not any more,,,it becomes an US,,,thus a gulf of difference...
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#10
I have no problem with the payment due because of the "covenant with Israel", nor does he seem to, from the conversations we have had over about five years. He seems to be asking about the here and now. He is asking why your 16 year old son, who has really not even had a chance to stubbornly refuse God, has to burn in Hell if his car skids off the road.

Justice?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#11
I have no problem with the payment due because of the "covenant with Israel", nor does he seem to, from the conversations we have had over about five years. He seems to be asking about the here and now. He is asking why your 16 year old son, who has really not even had a chance to stubbornly refuse God, has to burn in Hell if his car skids off the road.

Justice?
If a kid is 16 and doesn't believe in God I would say that is a reflection on a person's parenting and a lack of responsibility (if the parent is a Christian). Of course there are variables to consider so it cannot just be that. VVe can work with hypothetical scenarios but God's word plainly states none are without excuse. So, in some way the Lord has revealed Himself. Be it in a dream, through testimonies, or the very world surrounding us (I.e, intelligent design). Even so, the Gospel being heard. None, according to His word, are without excuse.

It would seem to me that the Holy Spirit is active in convicting the world of sin, righteousness and judgement as Jesus said He would. If His will is that none perish you can be assured God is presenting Himself, one way or another.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#12
The question and point don't work because it is based upon a false premise. Comparing God to man. Comparing the potter to the clay. The question gets stumped simply by asking, what standard do you judge God by? Is there any greater standard than the one set by God? If there are moral absolutes they are sourced from God's nature. If we are judging subjectively, well.. its subjective so He can do as He wishes and you, all the same.

If a person wishes to convict God, He would have to subject himself to moral absolutes which derive themselves from God's nature... which means God abides by these moral absolutes as they represent Himself.

My issue with the article (I've read it somewhere before) is that it tries to say that those going to Hell are inherently innocent and God is sadistic.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#13
Sorry if post #11 came off blunt. lol :p (Bad parenting tsk tsk! haha )
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#14
The question and point don't work because it is based upon a false premise. Comparing God to man. Comparing the potter to the clay. The question gets stumped simply by asking, what standard do you judge God by? Is there any greater standard than the one set by God? If there are moral absolutes they are sourced from God's nature. If we are judging subjectively, well.. its subjective so He can do as He wishes and you, all the same.

If a person wishes to convict God, He would have to subject himself to moral absolutes which derive themselves from God's nature... which means God abides by these moral absolutes as they represent Himself.

My issue with the article (I've read it somewhere before) is that it tries to say that those going to Hell are inherently innocent and God is sadistic.
And, basically, all we are saying in reply to Jeff is that it has to be accepted that we are simply "guilty", and God has a right to be the opposite of what He tells us to be. I honestly wish I didn't feel stupid and inadequate, dishing out that same stuff I parroted for decades, and had, instead, a sensible answer to give.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#15
And, basically, all we are saying in reply to Jeff is that it has to be accepted that we are simply "guilty", and God has a right to be the opposite of what He tells us to be. I honestly wish I didn't feel stupid and inadequate, dishing out that same stuff I parroted for decades, and had, instead, a sensible answer to give.
God doesn't have a right to be opposite of what He tells us to be because He is the very thing He calls us to be.


Matthew 5:48 King James Version (KJV)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

You aren't making sense, God is righteous and just. VVhat evil do you accuse Him of? God laying judgement is not evil. More over praise God for His mercy and grace, thoroughly revealed through Jesus. Many of the things God is accused of in being evil is Him protecting the bloodline of Christ, mankind's only means to redemption.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#16
VVilly, I fail to see your dilemma. There are many sensible answers. Do they not satisfy you? You know the heart of God, and His grace. Can evil be attributed to the Father Jesus revealed?
 
E

ember

Guest
#17
just becoming slightly aware of this guy now...reading on his wp site...blog etc

my impression is existential Christianity

I am finding he sure does make giant leaps into what he assumes we all are thinking and yes, I have a problem with that

I'm not sure you can answer that post...I personally believe that we can never, on this planet, really comprehend our fallen state as compared to God's holiness or what we have lost

I guess I'll read on cause I am naturally curious and definitely not a Bible thumper. I've 'learned' and 'unlearned' enough in my time on planet earth, to be slightly skeptical and inclined to say 'hold on'

what's he trying to say exactly?
 
E

ember

Guest
#18
here's a blurp from the first post to come up on his blog

If we take our eyes off of this beautiful, glorious “now”, and live only for a distant, ambiguous “then”, we might find ourselves extremely unfamiliar with what we find there. For perhaps our “then” will much more closely resemble our “now” than we’ve allowed ourselves to imagine.
I don't know anyone who claims to live as he appears to be having a problem with (sad English...sorry)

yet, he goes on and on about how being so heavenly minded we are no earthly good is a big problem for Christians

then he states:

Eternal life begins now. (John 17:3)
well I believe that but it includes a view of eternity surely?
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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#19
My Blondness will be showing here but what exactly was the question?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#20
just becoming slightly aware of this guy now...reading on his wp site...blog etc

my impression is existential Christianity

I am finding he sure does make giant leaps into what he assumes we all are thinking and yes, I have a problem with that

I'm not sure you can answer that post...I personally believe that we can never, on this planet, really comprehend our fallen state as compared to God's holiness or what we have lost

I guess I'll read on cause I am naturally curious and definitely not a Bible thumper. I've 'learned' and 'unlearned' enough in my time on planet earth, to be slightly skeptical and inclined to say 'hold on'

what's he trying to say exactly?
That the God of the bible is a hypocrite and not the righteous God He claims to be. This reveals historical ignorance. God's judgement is righteous, not evil.

Exert from a site:

Evilbible.com overlooks the historical evidences that these nations and cultures practiced the very things that evilbible.com decries as morally reprehensible. As just one example, the Assyrians who inhabited Nineveh during the time of Jonah were an incredibly barbaric and cruel people. When archaeologists uncovered Nineveh, the TV specials produced from their work had to be filtered because the evidence of brutality was so great. The discoveries unearthed facts such as how the Assyrians used to slowly impale their victims by sliding them down sharp poles, and that they also made handbags from their victim’s skins. In a stone pillar found at Nineveh, one Assyrian ruler boasted of “nobles I flayed” and “three thousand captives I burned with fire. I left not one hostage alive. I cut off the hands and feet of some. I cut off the noses, ears and fingers of others. The eyes of numerous soldiers I put out. Maidens I burned as a holocaust.” Such things certainly speak against evilbible.com’s claims that the people who fell under God’s judgment were innocent. Other examples include the inhabitants of Jericho who history has shown practiced child sacrifice, cultic prostitution, and much more.


Evilbible.com also overlooks the patience of God in dealing with such people. God always waited for the nations who ultimately experienced judgment to turn from their despicable ways and always warned them of the judgment that was coming. The book of Jonah describes God’s patience with the Ninevites, who finally did turn from their evil ways and avoided destruction. Other peoples and cultures could have repented of their sins, but they chose not to. As an example, the people of Amalek (described in 1 Samuel) routinely attempted to commit genocide against Israel, but were given 400 years by God to repent. But Amalek continued to commit their atrocities against Israel and so God judged them via Saul and the Israeli army.

site:
Is God evil? Is the Bible evil?