WHY DID GOD DO IT?
- Thread starter DrPhil2100
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My husband had a massive heart attack over four days, had two heart surgeries after that with a month in between for two infections and kidney failure. It's six months later, and we're really excited he can both hobble again and eat a little. This is the story of a man in great pain, but not evil. Pain and evil are two different things or they'd be synonyms. They're not. Nor is it related to love of money.
Mocked? Please explain to me how I just mocked God by saying something didn't make sense to me. Something that I explicitly said wasn't even that big of a deal to me. Go take your holier-than-thou crap back to the WBC.
I'll definitely go back and read through it 
What am I looking for specifically though? I mean there's nothing in it that demolishes the idea of predestination is there?
Easy answer. Read The Book of Jonah. Jonah took lots and lots of "chances," and God still got his way.
What am I looking for specifically though? I mean there's nothing in it that demolishes the idea of predestination is there?
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I'll definitely go back and read through it What am I looking for specifically though? I mean there's nothing in it that demolishes the idea of predestination is there?
What am I looking for specifically though? I mean there's nothing in it that demolishes the idea of predestination is there?
(Yes. I do believe God planned all along that some... errr, most actually, get hell. Pharaoh, Pontius Pilate, Herod, Judas all had chance, and yet God willed not to save them. It helps to know it goes the other way though. We all deserve hell, yet God has chosen to save some of us out of what we deserve.)
I don't know what your definition of "evil" is, but if the Lord was contemplating doing evil, then evil can't be sin, in my judgment, because I don't think it would enter his mind to sin. When God contemplated doing evil (as he did in the Bible verse I quoted - Exodus 23:14), I believe he was contemplating causing pain to people because of their sin.
Greetings and welcome DrPhil2000
The Spirit will not let me ignore your obvious distress and suffering. So, will toss in my 1 & 1/2 cents.
I claim no superior biblical understanding or insight, merely at my age have seen this question many times before.
Have to chuckle, was listening to a sermon on radio (you know, one of those things with ~dials~) and the preacher who was in his seventies and had been preaching for 40 - 50 years said simply this: "I get it!" So, will simply qualify my response with that.
I like to use the socratic method in discussions & usually get slammed for it but i will ask you this simple question:
"Why do humans have children?"
I do not know if you have children or not but merely ask you to visualize these scenarios.
A young daughter hugs her father and states: "I love you Daddy!"
A young boy when asked what he wishes to be when he grows up states"I want to be just like my Dad!"
The little girls statement is unconditional love towards her father, IF she has been treated by her father in a manner reflecting how God has told us to treat our children. The same for the little boy. He desires to be exactly like his Father.
So DrPhil2000, your question "Why did He create us?" can be answered this simply. Because He wants to love us AND have that love returned, just like any parent would want their child to love them. Once we come to terms with that, the rest kinda just falls into place.
Be Well,
cavil
The Spirit will not let me ignore your obvious distress and suffering. So, will toss in my 1 & 1/2 cents.
I claim no superior biblical understanding or insight, merely at my age have seen this question many times before.
Have to chuckle, was listening to a sermon on radio (you know, one of those things with ~dials~) and the preacher who was in his seventies and had been preaching for 40 - 50 years said simply this: "I get it!" So, will simply qualify my response with that.
I like to use the socratic method in discussions & usually get slammed for it but i will ask you this simple question:
"Why do humans have children?"
I do not know if you have children or not but merely ask you to visualize these scenarios.
A young daughter hugs her father and states: "I love you Daddy!"
A young boy when asked what he wishes to be when he grows up states"I want to be just like my Dad!"
The little girls statement is unconditional love towards her father, IF she has been treated by her father in a manner reflecting how God has told us to treat our children. The same for the little boy. He desires to be exactly like his Father.
So DrPhil2000, your question "Why did He create us?" can be answered this simply. Because He wants to love us AND have that love returned, just like any parent would want their child to love them. Once we come to terms with that, the rest kinda just falls into place.
Be Well,
cavil
C
The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;25*but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.*26*But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.*27*So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’*28*He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’*29*But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.*30*Let both grow together until the harvest
an ememy has done this
People have free will. I don't think it was possible to only create people who would follow Him.
Adam and Eve sinned, they got a mixed nature, half evil. One kid was righteous, the other a murderer, because the parents let the devil in. God could have killed Cain before he was conceived which would be a sin and maybe Eve didn't want to follow Him then anymore. Who knows?
an ememy has done this
People have free will. I don't think it was possible to only create people who would follow Him.
Adam and Eve sinned, they got a mixed nature, half evil. One kid was righteous, the other a murderer, because the parents let the devil in. God could have killed Cain before he was conceived which would be a sin and maybe Eve didn't want to follow Him then anymore. Who knows?
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Really that's how I see things whenever I've studied the issue. I know that we as lowly humans could never know or understand the reasoning. But (as just a guess) why would you say God creates people with the intention of sending them to an eternal fiery torment instead of...well...not creating them in the first place. I know that God most definitely isn't sadistic but the idea of God knowing that Hes going to send somebody to burn for eternity AS He's creating them paints a kind of sadistic picture to me.
My take on it is that there is WAY more to Hell, Heaven, and the processes of the afterlife than we understand. Either that, or God isn't all knowing in the sense that we think (which isn't blasphemous to me). I mean there's a couple of parts in the Bible that would point to that. One is where He's calling out to Adam/Eve in garden like He doesn't know where they are or what they have done until they tell Him. Perhaps He IS all knowing and chooses to not know some things (I.E. the destiny of most people).
Idk. Like I said before, I think there's way more to the story than what people think they know so it doesn't bother me TOO bad haha.
My take on it is that there is WAY more to Hell, Heaven, and the processes of the afterlife than we understand. Either that, or God isn't all knowing in the sense that we think (which isn't blasphemous to me). I mean there's a couple of parts in the Bible that would point to that. One is where He's calling out to Adam/Eve in garden like He doesn't know where they are or what they have done until they tell Him. Perhaps He IS all knowing and chooses to not know some things (I.E. the destiny of most people).
Idk. Like I said before, I think there's way more to the story than what people think they know so it doesn't bother me TOO bad haha.
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My definitions I do understand. (I may be alone in understanding them, but I do understand. lol)
Not-sin/good -- Love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind. Love others as yourself.
Sin/evil (which is the exact opposite of not-sin/good) -- Love self first.
Pain is a feeling. It's not not-sin nor sin. It hurts. Which is why I don't get your definition. I also might be a bit thickheaded specifically because I live in chronic pain, but I don't think God hates me nor loves me because of pain. He uses pain for his glory -- for the good of his people and the bad of all others. (And I could blame my thickheadedness on the chronic pain, except I was thickheaded before that came along. lol)
As for the Lord being tempted by sin/evil. I think it depends on when thought becomes word or deed. Jesus taught us that adultery is not just sex with the person, it's thinking about it or talking about it. Now, we cannot control our thoughts, but we don't have to let them nest.
God, on the other hand, does control his thoughts. So, could God think about wiping out the entire world (yet again) without letting the thought nest? At what point is it merely a passing thought that's not sin, compared to it becomes a nesting thought that is sin?
God did want to wipe man off the face of the world more than once. Was it sin when he really did? Was it sin if he just thinks it? Is it pain just thinking it, and when does the pain nest?
That stuff I don't get, because I'm too busy trying (and failing) to keep thoughts from nesting in me. Pain? Pain lives in me.
Not-sin/good -- Love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind. Love others as yourself.
Sin/evil (which is the exact opposite of not-sin/good) -- Love self first.
Pain is a feeling. It's not not-sin nor sin. It hurts. Which is why I don't get your definition. I also might be a bit thickheaded specifically because I live in chronic pain, but I don't think God hates me nor loves me because of pain. He uses pain for his glory -- for the good of his people and the bad of all others. (And I could blame my thickheadedness on the chronic pain, except I was thickheaded before that came along. lol)
As for the Lord being tempted by sin/evil. I think it depends on when thought becomes word or deed. Jesus taught us that adultery is not just sex with the person, it's thinking about it or talking about it. Now, we cannot control our thoughts, but we don't have to let them nest.
God, on the other hand, does control his thoughts. So, could God think about wiping out the entire world (yet again) without letting the thought nest? At what point is it merely a passing thought that's not sin, compared to it becomes a nesting thought that is sin?
God did want to wipe man off the face of the world more than once. Was it sin when he really did? Was it sin if he just thinks it? Is it pain just thinking it, and when does the pain nest?
That stuff I don't get, because I'm too busy trying (and failing) to keep thoughts from nesting in me. Pain? Pain lives in me.
D
First, God didn't create all humans. He created two. He named one Adam, and the other one Eve. (Or did Adam name her? I forgot. lol) Everyone else came from them, just like that huge fish that showed up under Jonah's boat came from the first fish.
And each person and fish went about their lives, some for God's glory, some for his wrath, but all glorifying God in one way or another.
Pharaoh could have been nothing more than a useless boil on the butt of society. He certainly was never headed to eternity with God, and yet God used him in a mighty way for God's glory... and wrath! That guy you passed by today -- same deal. Somehow, someway, God uses him for some small or great purpose to further his kingdom and glory. Where would I be today if a friend of mine didn't invite me to his church? (Ha! Wasn't saved there. Not the usual obvious story. lol) Had I not gone to that church, I wouldn't have continued to go to that church and then see some guy stumble up the aisle, running intochairs and people just to rush up... OH! And stop to meet me. (Gorgeous eyes. I won't tell my first thought when he left though.) That was my husband, and we stayed there long enough to get married in that church.
And where would I be if two people -- who knows who? -- had lifted me up correctly off the operating table without damaging my back? And where would I be if some stoned out of his gore druggie co-worker didn't cut his hand on the same ductwork hubby cut his hand on causing the Hep C to go from druggie into hubby?
I suspect if we tried hard enough, you and I could play Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon and find someone who knows someone who knows someone who crossed both of our paths once for some obscure reason. Everything is connected. And it's all connected to one thing -- the glory of God. God set into motion one guy and one gal who became the ancestors of all of us. And none of that even matters except that each and every one of us show God's glory through our good and bad. He is the purpose of the whole shabam! That he placed some of us for a higher purpose is cool -- really cool -- but ultimately, even there it's eternity glorifying God!
So, yup! WAY beyond what any of us can ever conceive!
And each person and fish went about their lives, some for God's glory, some for his wrath, but all glorifying God in one way or another.
Pharaoh could have been nothing more than a useless boil on the butt of society. He certainly was never headed to eternity with God, and yet God used him in a mighty way for God's glory... and wrath! That guy you passed by today -- same deal. Somehow, someway, God uses him for some small or great purpose to further his kingdom and glory. Where would I be today if a friend of mine didn't invite me to his church? (Ha! Wasn't saved there. Not the usual obvious story. lol) Had I not gone to that church, I wouldn't have continued to go to that church and then see some guy stumble up the aisle, running intochairs and people just to rush up... OH! And stop to meet me. (Gorgeous eyes. I won't tell my first thought when he left though.) That was my husband, and we stayed there long enough to get married in that church.
And where would I be if two people -- who knows who? -- had lifted me up correctly off the operating table without damaging my back? And where would I be if some stoned out of his gore druggie co-worker didn't cut his hand on the same ductwork hubby cut his hand on causing the Hep C to go from druggie into hubby?
I suspect if we tried hard enough, you and I could play Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon and find someone who knows someone who knows someone who crossed both of our paths once for some obscure reason. Everything is connected. And it's all connected to one thing -- the glory of God. God set into motion one guy and one gal who became the ancestors of all of us. And none of that even matters except that each and every one of us show God's glory through our good and bad. He is the purpose of the whole shabam! That he placed some of us for a higher purpose is cool -- really cool -- but ultimately, even there it's eternity glorifying God!
So, yup! WAY beyond what any of us can ever conceive!