Promised a Miracle

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Depleted

Guest
#1
#1
I'm watching an old Made-for-TV movie based on a book written by the father. (The book is We Let Our Son Die. The movie is Promised a Miracle) Two parents are told to believe fully in the healing power of Jesus and their son will be miraculously healed from diabetes. It's not your usual Hollywood movie in that it doesn't make Christians look like idiots. They truly believed. They truly truly believed just like the word-of-faith teaches. Even after the boy died they believed. They believed he'd be resurrected. They believed it through his viewing, which they insisted was his resurrection day, and even insisted he get put in the earth with his shoes on to walk out. Even weeks later when they were on trial for murdering their son.

It was made in 1988. The boy died in 1973. Decades later, and those of us who know God doesn't heal based on the amount of faith people can muster to make him heal are still chastised for speaking up.

It's a hideous scam that ruins people's lives. When will people learn? And when will Christians speak up against it? (And I post on Misc., because I know if I post on BDF the WoF people will give this pages and pages of rebuttal with the usual pep rally for their cause/scam. They will find this, but I wanted some time before they played that game.)

I ache for those who fall for it. How can they not blame God even after figuring out the obvious? And what becomes of their friends when they stop believing in WoF?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#2
#2
We can pray and hope, for even God can call people out of the deception and lies.

I want to believe that people misunderstand what is being taught, but recognise that there are some who truly believe that doctors are bad, medicine is evil and miracles are promised to this earthly shells.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#3
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
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#3
Ariel82 said:
We can pray and hope, for even God can call people out of the deception and lies.

I want to believe that people misunderstand what is being taught, but recognise that there are some who truly believe that doctors are bad, medicine is evil and miracles are promised to this earthly shells.
Click to expand...
I probably believe more in healing than most here, but in cases like that.... ya can't cure "stupid."
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#5
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
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#5
Depleted said:
But silence is approval.
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So making a lot of noise after something like this happens does some good? Other than to make us feel like we stated our disapproval?

No, the right thing to do is to continue to pray for healing, and to tell people to use every means God has given mankind. This isn't just trying to say God can only heal with a wave of a hand. We should give God the glory every time a doctor is successful, or if, instead, an illness just goes away over the course of time.

This stupid belief in healing as some sort of Voodoo is ridiculous.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#6
#6
Willie-T said:
So making a lot of noise after something like this happens does some good? Other than to make us feel like we stated our disapproval?

No, the right thing to do is to continue to pray for healing, and to tell people to use every means God has given mankind. This isn't just trying to say God can only heal with a wave of a hand. We should give God the glory every time a doctor is successful, or if, instead, an illness just goes away over the course of time.

This stupid belief in healing as some sort of Voodoo is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
So you're saying education doesn't work, so let's pray?
 
M

Miri

Guest
#7
#7
I agree with Willie, God does heal, at times supernaturally at times through
others. It's good to pray for healing and we should continue to do so.


But yes the way some people refuse any other treatment and are blinkered in
that they can't see how God uses other people and situations, are at best foolish,
at worst they try to use the name of Jesus like a lucky charm.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#8
#8
Miri said:
I agree with Willie, God does heal, at times supernaturally at times through
others. It's good to pray for healing and we should continue to do so.


But yes the way some people refuse any other treatment and are blinkered in
that they can't see how God uses other people and situations, are at best foolish,
at worst they try to use the name of Jesus like a lucky charm.
Click to expand...
I think back to the days I was first a believer. I didn't know how to tell the difference between what the Bible says and what people told me it said. And, by the time I had read it, my mind was so full of what men of God taught me that what they taught me seemed like what it said.

Half a lifetime ago, my BIL was engaged to this lovely Christian woman. (They are still happily married.) We had them over one night, and as does happen, we got to talking about God. She talked about pre-trib rapture. We weren't argumentative. One of us simply said we don't believe in it. She was stunned. She had never met anyone who didn't believe it because she grew up in the Church and her father was/is her pastor. I don't think anyone's belief in End Times says if they are or aren't saved. I wouldn't be surprised to learn she still believes in pre-trib and it just doesn't matter.

But it does tell me people stay in their churches for a long time and come to assume what is taught is always the way to see God's Word.

What about people who grew up or landed in a WoF and just never realized it is something different? For some folks it is foolishness. For others it's ignorance they just don't see. A blind spot that appears not to be because that's how that hole got filled in their eyesight long ago.

As sad as the story is to this movie/book, I do love the father's conclusion at the end. His wife said she no longer felt God, therefore God had deserted her.

First he quoted scripture. "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Then he said, "'The greatest of these is love.' Maybe we worked so hard on faith we forgot love. But I want to love you. I want to work on love. And maybe later we can work on faith again."

They weren't evil. And the only reason they did something very foolish is because they trusted how they were taught the Bible. They trusted the god they were taught to trust.

I do see this as something important to not let fester, but I also don't see how to stop people from getting sucked into it either. Silence isn't working. Shouting isn't working either. We may be praying, but the infection is spreading.
 
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Miri

Guest
#9
#9
Depleted said:
I think back to the days I was first a believer. I didn't know how to tell the difference between what the Bible says and what people told me it said. And, by the time I had read it, my mind was so full of what men of God taught me that what they taught me seemed like what it said.

Half a lifetime ago, my BIL was engaged to this lovely Christian woman. (They are still happily married.) We had them over one night, and as does happen, we got to talking about God. She talked about pre-trib rapture. We weren't argumentative. One of us simply said we don't believe in it. She was stunned. She had never met anyone who didn't believe it because she grew up in the Church and her father was/is her pastor. I don't think anyone's belief in End Times says if they are or aren't saved. I wouldn't be surprised to learn she still believes in pre-trib and it just doesn't matter.

But it does tell me people stay in their churches for a long time and come to assume what is taught is always the way to see God's Word.

What about people who grew up or landed in a WoF and just never realized it is something different? For some folks it is foolishness. For others it's ignorance they just don't see. A blind spot that appears not to be because that's how that hole got filled in their eyesight long ago.

As sad as the story is to this movie/book, I do love the father's conclusion at the end. His wife said she no longer felt God, therefore God had deserted her.

First he quoted scripture. "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Then he said, "'The greatest of these is love.' Maybe we worked so hard on faith we forgot love. But I want to love you. I want to work on love. And maybe later we can work on faith again."

They weren't evil. And the only reason they did something very foolish is because they trusted how they were taught the Bible. They trusted the god they were taught to trust.

I do see this as something important to not let fester, but I also don't see how to stop people from getting sucked into it either. Silence isn't working. Shouting isn't working either. We may be praying, but the infection is spreading.
Click to expand...

As a young person, I was taught lots of things which looking back, were passed down from
person to person. It's only when I started to not only read the bible but also question certain
things, that I realised not everything was true. But importantly that certain things were not actually
in the bible at all and were just a matter of opinion.

I think it was maybe in my early 20s that I first started to realise this.
Unfortunately it takes some people a lot longer than that. I know a person
in their 50s for example who believes everything she is told. She is a very intelligent person
by the way but if an influential Christian tells her anything it never occurs to her it might possibly
be wrong or not entirely right.

She is a sucker for word of faith, Joseph prince, she attributes all illness to demonic (since reading a
book last year), especially if doctors can't find a cause or know the reason why. It never occurs to
her that doctors don't know everything or that X-rays don't show everything.


I have no idea what would happen if she ever came on CC. :) Probably she would be gobbled
up alive. But she is actually a very nice person.
 
blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
#10
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,601
113
#10
You can pray for 45 years to be healed of all your afflictions. Doesn't mean you will be.. Been there, done that, STILL doing it.. You can wish and hope and pray and believe and have faith that God will heal you. But that don't mean jack squat.

IMO, the bible seems to lie when it says that all who just believe and have faith will be healed. That just is not true. I'm not a fan of the name it and claim it idiot beliefs.
 
Fenner

Fenner

Senior Member
#11
Jan 26, 2013
7,507
111
0
#11
Isn't there a religion that doesn't use medicine for healing? I've heard of other stories about parents who didn't take the kid's to the doctor and they ended up dying. It's really sad when that happens.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#12
#12
blue_ladybug said:
You can pray for 45 years to be healed of all your afflictions. Doesn't mean you will be.. Been there, done that, STILL doing it.. You can wish and hope and pray and believe and have faith that God will heal you. But that don't mean jack squat.

IMO, the bible seems to lie when it says that all who just believe and have faith will be healed. That just is not true. I'm not a fan of the name it and claim it idiot beliefs.
Click to expand...
We ARE healed. We are no longer blinded in sin. We are no longer disabled in sin.

And we do have to believe, but that too is a gift. And who we believe in matters -- God and his will. That is who we need faith in -- God. And that is who gives us faith to have faith in him. When faith becomes pride, or our own willpower, or sheer self-determination, that is when it goes amuck.

And God is healing us to perfection just as surely as those doctors healed you from cancer -- over a long period of time, but with only God's good outcome at the end. You were healed. John was healed. I was healed, and yet each one of us won't get off this planet alive. We do get off though.

I don't doubt healing. I am being healed. I was a trainwreck and I'm all the way up to wreckage. One day I get a spiffy new chassis that won't wreck, doesn't look like a wreck, and doesn't look quite this vintage. lol

What I won't believe is any of that has to do with our skills!
 
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Depleted

Guest
#13
#13
Fenner said:
Isn't there a religion that doesn't use medicine for healing? I've heard of other stories about parents who didn't take the kid's to the doctor and they ended up dying. It's really sad when that happens.
Click to expand...
Yup. That's what these parents believed. and it's 40 years later and still quite the thing to believe.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#14
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#14
Depleted said:
So you're saying education doesn't work, so let's pray?
Click to expand...
I probably do it the opposite of how you do. I say "Let's pray first, then see if God will just use men's education, or some other way."
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#15
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#15
most of us here know the source of Life's Spring...
we have learned about false prophets and such...
we know that satan will rail and take a hold of many through their weaknesses...
but,
we know that the birth of a New Nation is soon coming and that The Gate of Life
will swing wide...

so many false religions, so many false philosophies - the days come to us for re-thinking...

soon we will see who is bought with Jesus Christ's Holy blood...
 
C

CeileDe

Guest
#16
#16
The movie sounds interesting. I'm not word of faith but I do believe in healing. I guess I should ask what part of healing is up for debate? Or what part of Scripture is up for debate?
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#17
Apr 22, 2013
12,916
8,649
113
#17
I don't know anything about WOF movements and such, but it seems so wrong to almost tempt the Lord by not getting readily available help. Of course we need to pray and the Lord can and does do miracles for His Glory, but using the philosophy that these people used why bother doing ANYTHING.

It sounds like this famous story:

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.
Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."
The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."
To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."
To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"
To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"
 
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CeileDe

Guest
#18
#18
PennEd said:
I don't know anything about WOF movements and such, but it seems so wrong to almost tempt the Lord by not getting readily available help. Of course we need to pray and the Lord can and does do miracles for His Glory, but using the philosophy that these people used why bother doing ANYTHING.

It sounds like this famous story:

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.
Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."
The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."
To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."
To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"
To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"
Click to expand...
I was thinking of this story when i read this thread. It was a bit different but same point.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#19
#19
CeileDe said:
The movie sounds interesting. I'm not word of faith but I do believe in healing. I guess I should ask what part of healing is up for debate? Or what part of Scripture is up for debate?
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"Word of faith" is up to debate.

If God heals it's really obvious -- you're healed.

If you have to spend lots of time giving yourself internal pep talks to convince yourself you are healed, or keep repeating the same thing over and over like a mantra waiting around for said-healing to make itself present, or hang around a bunch of other people who are fine to say you're healed because whether you are or aren't it doesn't change their lives and they keep reminding you that you are healed because you don't feel it, then that's not healed.

"Word of faith" means you hope you're healed. Healed is healed.
 
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CeileDe

Guest
#20
#20
Depleted said:
"Word of faith" is up to debate.

If God heals it's really obvious -- you're healed.

If you have to spend lots of time giving yourself internal pep talks to convince yourself you are healed, or keep repeating the same thing over and over like a mantra waiting around for said-healing to make itself present, or hang around a bunch of other people who are fine to say you're healed because whether you are or aren't it doesn't change their lives and they keep reminding you that you are healed because you don't feel it, then that's not healed.

"Word of faith" means you hope you're healed. Healed is healed.
Click to expand...
OK. So you are against the Word of Faith crowd, not healing?
 
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