Doctors are fine...

mar09 · Oct 27, 2016

... but sometimes do not put too much trust on what they know on nutrition, lifestyles, even childbirth-).
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ittle-about-effects-of-nutrition-and-exercise

I chanced upon a thread a while ago abt midwife needs in the Uk on cc, but lost it closing a tab. Although the given link i still had open:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/11/women-labour-miliband-callthe-midwife-mother-birth

See, many times i believe midwives do know more about childbirth than all them docs do.

mar09 · Oct 27, 2016

And this was a link i meant to share on seemingly unconventional knowledge on childbirth, even by many women around the world.

The idea that childbirth is excruciatingly painful is cultural norm in America. It is the topic of jokes. I was told in my first pregnancy by one of the OB’s providing my care that I would be “begging for drugs in the parking lot [of the hospital]”-which of course only made me more determined NOT to ask for drugs. The idea that birth is meant to be painful even led to some religious groups opposing the use of pain medications in the 1800’s. I’ve even heard it mentioned during sermons as being Biblical.So where does the Bible say that childbirth is meant to be excruciating…or does it REALLY say that?

http://knittedinthewomb.com/wp/2012/01/does-the-bible-declare-that-childbirth-is-meant-to-be-excruciating/

Tintin · Oct 27, 2016

That's just not biblical. Some women will experience pain-free childbirths, but generally, there will be pain and lots of it.

renewed_hope · Oct 27, 2016

I think if you allow God to show you the best medical treatment and you do know your own body better than anyone else then okay.....for example, I had an appointment to discuss my worsening neck pain and the doctor wants me to consider surgical means of alleviating it, but I won't go for it and so they set me up for physical therapy.

mar09 · Oct 28, 2016

Tintin said:

What is not, tintin? I agree with that u said some women will experience pain-free childbirth, and generally there’s lots of pain. Did u read the link in post #2? I am not a Bible scholar not historian, but from some studying at the time I had to give birth, and by experience, I can say I have had both painful and almost pain-free births. Could it be to some extent an application of that verse saying “My people perish for lack of knowledge…”?

I have talked this little with a mom on cc, where she said to each his/her own, and rightly so. I opened this thread after reading the first link posted, where even if we didn’t read, we know for a fact food and health habits like a sedentary life, do affect our health-- as well as childbirth.. I simply wanted to share, educate, or enlighten if I may use those words, something half of the world population has gone and is going thru for a long long time, but many still suffer. When there are ways you can not suffer or hurt that much in childbirth—if you knew. Midwives whether a mother or still not having given birth herself, have studied what theyre doing, and for those more experienced, have seen how some mothers can and do give birth simply, as a normal physiological process in a short time (w/o much ado or medications).. But which may have complications, not discounting that.

As I have little time to discuss, let me post again part of another in fact anonymous person’s 2005 post on giving birth as he/she saw it.

BIRTH THE BIBLE WAY

Anonymous

(Investigator 100, 2005 January)

CLUE UNHEEDED KILLED MILLIONS
In the 19th and 20th centuries the Western position for women giving birth was to lie on their back. This position was adopted in countries around the world as medical science spread and modern hospitals were built.
In promoting the back-position the medical profession ignored a clue in the Bible on making childbirth easier. This failure may have killed millions of mothers and babies…

CHILDBIRTH POSITION

In the time of the early patriarchs the woman giving birth often sat on another person's knees. Rachel's maid gave birth to a child, "upon my [Rachel's] knees". (Genesis 30:1-3)
And: "…the children also of Machir…were born upon Joseph's knees." (Genesis 50:23)

In the time near the Exodus the Hebrews used a "birth stool" on which the woman giving birth sat. (Exodus 1:16)
Exodus 1:19 says the Hebrew women were "vigorous" and suggests they gave birth quickly.

This is the clue the medical profession should have examined sooner. Does sitting make for easier birth than lying on one's back? The Bible statement about birth-stools is Descriptive – it does not prescribe. But it is linked to a claim regarding quicker/easier childbirth, which women and doctors would want.

In many African and Pacific tribes also, women gave birth in a squatting position and this was known in Europe. In Europe birth-stools were used during the Middle Ages.

The German journal Der Spiegel had a report on the mother's best position for giving birth. (1986, Number 43, 278-288) The report says that lying on one's back to give birth is: "…the second stupidest position after standing on your head."

The article suggested that the high rate of caesarian births in modern times is due to using this stupid position.
In Europe alone in the 19th and 20th centuries there were 3,000 million human births. Considering that birth is among the most dangerous times in anyone's life, there must have been millions of cases where using the "second stupidest position" made the difference that caused death.

Giving Birth The Bible Way

mar09 · Oct 28, 2016

renewed_hope said:

Good to hear… someone said while there are alternatives, never to go into surgery until we have studied other options.

mar09 · Nov 1, 2016

i posted this link in the women-curse thread in the bdf, but thought to copy parts for those who cannot click on more links.

Sources of Pain

At the most basic level, labor is a physiological process the mother completes to get her child out of her body and into her arms. As such, there are a wide variety of factors that contribute to the way this physiological process feels to the mother and how she perceives the sensations. To help you understand, let us think for a moment about a physiological process you are more familiar with, digestion.

The process of digestion requires several organs, a large percentage of the body and can produce a wide variety of pains. When all is working well, the discomforts you feel from an empty stomach or full bladder are gentle indications to you of your body's needs. When all is not well you may feel pressure, muscle constriction, muscle spasm, nausea or even damage to the tissues of your mouth such as a burnt tongue.

The process of labor uses fewer body parts than digestion, but can produce just as wide a variety of pains. Like digestion, the intensity of the sensations felt by a mother can range from gentle indications something needs to be done to pressure, muscle spasm or even tissue damage in rare instances.

With digestion, the behavior of the person can affect the level of comfort. Eating known triggers can cause heartburn and decrease comfort. Eating high fiber foods can improve the functioning of the digestive system and therefore increase comfort. The laboring mother has a similar ability to affect the level of her comfort. Changing positions is commonly known to increase comfort, while lying on the back is known to decrease comfort.

While there are some factors the laboring mother can control, such as what position she is in, there are other factors affecting her discomfort she is not able to control. With digestion some women are not able to tolerate certain foods or are prone to heartburn. With labor, some women are slower to produce hormones necessary for the process and other women have narrower pelvises requiring a larger stretch. Additionally, labor comfort is affected by the position of the baby, amount of rest the mother has had, the mother's overall health and the mother's confidence. Because of this, different women can go through the same process of labor and experience different sensations.

Understanding all that, here are the commonly accepted theories for the physical sources of pain in childbirth, and theories about how they can be overcome (where possible). Please remember the extent to which these cause pain in labor varies from woman to woman and from labor to labor...

Unnecessary Pain in Childbirth

There are things women do during labor that actually cause the pain to be intensified. Unfortunately, many women do not know what these things are. Understanding how they affect your labor can help you in preventing labor pain.

Tension
If you are skeptical of this, try it while you labor. During one contraction, do whatever you want, tensing your muscles. Then, during the next contraction actively relax your muscles. You will feel a difference.

Paying Attention Too Soon
Many women become obsessed with timing contractions from the very first contraction. For some, there is a fear that if you do not pay attention, you may miss something. Some of the signs of progress in labor can be subtle, but you will not miss the major signs. When contractions begin, ignore them and go about your day for as long as you can. When the contractions demand more attention, give them only as much as they demand. Contractions will demand your full attention by the time you are in good active labor, which will require a lot of energy. Don't waste your energy by paying attention too early.

Lack of Sleep
A tired body is less able to deal with the stress of labor, causing everything to "feel" more even though your body is not doing more work. Be sure to get plenty of rest in the days leading up to your labor. When contractions begin, don't be afraid to take a nap. I promise you will NOT sleep through the birth of your baby. If you have the luxury of a slow starting labor, use the early mild contractions to get some sleep.

Thirst
If you do not take sips of water or juice between your contractions, you stand a good chance of becoming dehydrated. When your body is dehydrated, your muscle output is decreased by 30%. That means that your uterus will contract just as hard, but it will do 30% less work. Dehydration also heightens feelings of exhaustion and can elevate your temperature. If your temperature goes up, your medical team, intent on ensuring your baby is healthy, will assume this "fever" is caused by an infection and you may begin to receive antibiotics via injection or IV (which is a pain in and of itself).

Hunger
Your body uses food as its energy source. If you are not eating during labor, you are depriving your body of energy it needs to labor. Many hospitals now allow you to eat during labor. If your birthplace does not allow eating, understand that most women lose their desire to eat during active labor, so simply stay home until your desire to eat is gone.

Need to urinate
There will be a lot of activity going on in your pelvic region. During active labor you may not be able to distinguish the need to urinate from the other pressures you feel. Your uterus will put pressure on your bladder as contracts, so the best way to prevent pain from an over-full bladder is to urinate frequently(at least every two hours).

Performance Anxiety
Also known as going to the hospital too soon. Some women believe that if they can just get to the hospital, everything will happen faster. That is not true. In fact, the move to the hospital can actually be stressful enough to temporarily slow down or stop your contractions. Waiting until you are in good active labor can help prevent this. Being in the hospital too early makes the labor seem slower than if you had stayed at home and busied yourself with your life. Having nurses and doctors checking on you can make the "seeming slow" labor seem even slower, causing the mom to feel that she has to perform better, labor must get moving. This anxiety can be enough to send some women into the fear/tension/pain cycle.

Lying on your Back
When you are on your back, the contracting uterus has to move "up" against gravity, which is much more work than simply moving forward. Also, you can constrict the blood flow to the heart, causing you to be light-headed. Staying off your back can help in preventing labor pain.
[this gravity thing should perhaps be emphasized in science classes, not just the apple falling on newton's head.]

Labor Pain | Sources of Pain

KohenMatt · Nov 5, 2016

I have 5 kids and I had absolutely NO pain during childbirth!

That's because it was my wife who gave birth to them all.

KohenMatt · Nov 8, 2016

Pain in childbirth isn't necessarily a bad thing nor guaranteed it won't be.
Genesis 3:16 "To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children."
John 16:21 "A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world."

Any pain in childbirth is part of the process and the beauty and miraculous-ness of it all.

My wife had all 5 of our children at home (She's an amazing woman!) There is NOTHING like having your kids in your home. Frequently, our children will ask us to tell them the story of their births and where everything happened. The 4 kids who can understand the birth know exactly where in the house they were born, what time it happened, how long it took, who was there, etc.The uniqueness of each story is something that makes them feel unique and special. That kind of experience rarely happens in a hospital.

Yes there was pain. I saw firsthand (but not experienced!) that pain since I "caught" 3 of the 5. But the pain is a reminder of God's decree to Eve. It is also a sign to how amazing the experience is. If birth were painless, I think it would be taken for granted more, and so would the children.

I understand that there are times where hospitals and doctors and pain medications are necessary. I have complete respect for those situations. But I think hospitals and doctors and pain medications have become the default, which takes away some of the miraculous-ness of childbirth. I would HIGHLY recommend home-birth to any mother who is able to.

mar09 · Nov 12, 2016

KohenMatt said:

Thanks, matt, for sharing this. This is a big subject to discuss for me really and need to collect my wits-). I think the Bible versions quoted were quite recent, and some Bible scholars say some of these have really 'distorted' childbirth teachngs from the OT to present. From what i understand, Scriptures do not say it is painless, but it could be, and also hard work or labor, wc it is in fact called... why there must be a reason.

If young women can find time to learn more about how their bodies work, and older women here also pass on what a 'simple' but happy and miraculous experience giving birth could be... if i had time i'd like to go on to a few verses incl. John. 6.21 and that from Isaiah and Micah that touches on this.

mar09 · Nov 12, 2016

Reposting this, from seoul's OP months ago.

mar09 said:

Perhaps these can be viewed as just notes from an old notebook, not correctly formatted for itals, etc. for there is no time to do all. I simply got the gist from what i understood, in fact leaving out lots. i understand this was started in the singles forum but hope that's alright...prenatal care and maternity care are free in sweden (and more countries now i believe) where they have training in natural childbirth, where h.s. girls also receive instruction on these.

18 Theology
It is said that etsev in Gen.3.16, 17 refers primarily to emotions.
Etsev is also translated as ‘toil’ in Prov. 5.10, 10.22, Is. 58.3.

To be consistent, it should also be translated as ‘toil’ in 1 Chron. 4.9.

There is a verse in the NT where the AV adds ‘pain’, although it does not appear in the Greek-- Rom. 8.22 where the Gk simply says:

The whole creation groans in labor together (sunadino) until now.

It is worthy to note that ‘as a woman giving birth,’ wc appears 15x in our English translations of the OT, appears only 9x in the Septuagint. This simile occurs only once in the OT outside the prophetical literature, in Ps. 48.6, where it tells the king’s ‘laboring (chul) as a woman giving birth (yalad).’ This is a comparison of the effort in rowing to the effort in giving birth… the picture is like that of Mk. 6.48 (Phillips) where the disciples are ‘straining at the oars.’

In Isa. 42.14, rather than having the Lord say, ‘… now will I cry (paah) like a travailing (yalad) woman,’ as the AV reads, the Septuagint authors render this verse as ‘I have been as patient (kartereo) as a woman giving birth (tikto).
Translators have inserted concepts of suffering in other passages of comfort and blessing that refer to childbirth, as in Is. 54.1-4, 66.7-9, Jer. 31.8, etc.

To understand how English renderings can differ so much from the Septuagint, one must realize that our English and European translators of the OT are based primarily on the Heb.masoretic text wc earliest extant ms dates back only to AD 895…the importance of the Septuagint, with its happier renderings of childbirth passages, can hardly be overestimated. It was the only OT widely used by the early Church throughout the Gr.speaking world til the Latin vulgate appeared in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] and 5[SUP]th[/SUP] century AD.

…the really surprising thing is that it is the translators of the newer revisions of the last half century who have been the chief offenders…in their attempt to break away from the awkward literary training and use of familiar english words they have unwittingly ‘read into’ the text the concept of childbirth pain in many places where it is not in the original languages…

As a matter of fact, many of us are guilty of carelessly ‘reading into’ the text our own concepts of childbirth pain [and many other things].

19 Contemporary Obstetric Practices
Because the concept of pain as a normal accompaniment of labor and birth is so deeply embedded in the minds of many doctors, they have dismissed as ‘irrational’ statements and evidences from women who have experienced happy childbirths.

It is a common misconception that the natural childbirth patient is a ‘stoic,’ while the orthodox obstetric patient is relieved of her pain by means of drugs. The opposite is true. The natural childbirth patient because she knows how to prevent pain from occurring by relaxation and proper breathing, does not suffer while the untrained orthodox patient bec.she is tense does not feel severe pain even under sedation…Drugs cause one to lose self-control, so what 1 does remember often assumes an embarrassing nightmarish quality.

… an intensely disliked experience is the irritated soreness of perineal tissue after childbirth due to an episiotomy and repair. The orthodox physician performs the episiotomy nearly 100% of the time…and there is evidence that it is not really necessary.

But while the enema and episiotomy, used routinely (in the US) for a woman in childbirth are troublesome there is a really cruel procedure in obstetrics. This is the practice of strapping a woman down totally flat on her back.. this has no justification whatever for a conscious, cooperative woman.

This obstetric custom of strapping a laboring woman in an inflexible position is inexcusable…this position makes labor difficult and exhausting, esp for th primipara. Many have not realized that the severe backache and fatigue that trouble them after childbirth was due to their having abused their back muscles by arching their backs while pushing—the only way u can push when ur pinned flat on ur back…

The use of this dorsal position for delivering a child was first popularized in the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century by Mauriceau, a French physician. He found that placing the woman in this position made the birth so much easier for the doctor!

Hope these be a blessing to mothers to be, and others.

mar09 · Nov 13, 2016

Originally Posted by mar09

Thanks, matt, for sharing this. (again)

If young women can find time to learn more about how their bodies work, and older women here also pass on what a 'simple' but happy and miraculous experience giving birth could be... .(Added: how different childbirths would be...) if i had time i'd like to go on to a few verses incl. John. 6.21 and that from Isaiah and Micah that touch on this."

Mic 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

"The garbled meaning of Mic. 4.9-19, as it is translated into English, is a vivid contradiction to its apparent meaning as it appears in the Septuagint.The really ironic thing abt this mistranslation is that it occurs right in the center of Micah's verses of comfort to his people, wc begins at the opening of the 4th chapter and leads up to the promise of the Messiah in chap.5.

Translators have inserted concepts of suffering in other passages of comfort and blessing that refer to childbirth, as in Isa. 54.1-4, 66.7-9, Jer. 31.8, more." Wessel, The Joy of Natural Childbirth

Please note that the quotes in the previous posts here were from the same writer who explored childbirth passages in the OT and NT in her writings.

mar09 · Nov 13, 2016

Here is the passage in GNT, Micah 4

9Why do you cry out so loudly? Why are you suffering like a woman in labor? Is it because you have no king, and your counselors are dead? 10Twist and groan,people of Jerusalem, like a woman giving birth, for now you will have to leave the city and live in the open country. You will have to go to Babylon, but there the Lord will save you from your enemies.

I only know chul and yalad were used in both verses.

mar09 · Nov 16, 2016

KohenMatt said:

I have not actually replied to the first part of ur post, matt. You really have an amazing wife, i believe... All along, ive not been saying birth does not involve pain, or there must not be pain, but just that it does not always have to be part of the process, as those who have studied it have said. There are not many names i can name, but Dr. Dick-Read comes to mind, who, with his wife, strived to help as many mothers give birth in the easiest, most blessed way they knew how to help them. Just thought, would not birth be more beautiful and miraculous if it was not painful? That is, mothers do groan, struggle, work at it, as those who have narrated their birth experiences, but not necessarily in pain...

Quoting again from notes on wessel's book: There is nothing which says women ar emeant to suffer pain when they bear a child.. Incidentally, it is interesting that it is we mothers who can really promote natural childbirth...

and
Tension due to simple embarrassment of a young wife in labor can be a tremendous pain-producing factor.

Thereare topics and threads that are a bit serious and seem to need more energy to reply to and this is one, even starting it-). I didnt intend to come to this today, but guess what... i go to some links to remove 1 i have bookmarked on the pc, and find this article marked months ago for some reason. If i remember right, the title caught my attention, and having read something on theories on salt intake, i thought to return to the writeup. Now that i do, i find it mentions the austrian doctor mentioned in passing in other thread on childbirth-- Ignaz Semmelweis! Would that be coincidence, u say...

Why Medicine Might Be Wrong About Salt, Fat & BMI

July 23rd, 2012 by drlutz

Salt and fat kill you early, and your BMI tells you how early. That has been the wisdom for years, but wisdoms have an expiry date, too. Particularly medical wisdoms. Recent research says those three are probably well beyond their use-by date. [tweet this].

We live in interesting times. Admitted, my view of times is myopic, it's focused on the biomedical. So, I'm obviously not referring to Greece teetering on the economic brink. In biomedicine our Greeks are the cherished wisdoms about salt, fat and BMI. Similarity 1: They are not doing so well. Similarity 2: Their balance sheet screams bankruptcy. Similarity 3: Our authorities won't kick them out for fear of a domino effect.

Actually, medical history is full of interesting times. Remember, when a young doctor suggested that simply washing hands between dissecting cadavers and helping women give birth would seriously reduce the regular 1-in-five death rate from childbed fever?

Of course, you won't remember this: the place was the Vienna General Hospital in Austria, the year was 1849 and the young doctor's name was Ignaz Semmelweis. While he didn't publish his observations, one of his students did, in the grand old dame of British medical journals, the Lancet [1]. At that time infection was known per se, but it was believed to work like this: a "peculiar morbid atmospheric influence which extends beyond the range of personal communication". Semmelweis believed in washing hands. And he had the numbers to prove his belief. After introducing a hand-washing rule in his department, childbed deaths dropped by 75%. The response of Semmelweis' peers and superiors to his challenging notion is today known as the Semmelweis reflex. Unlike Semmelweis it is very much alive. It is the reflex-like rejection of new insights because they disagree with entrenched beliefs.

Semmelweis' observations were one of the initial steps in the development of the germ theory of disease. Three more names are attached to its development, Louis Pasteur, Robert Koch and Joseph Lister. The latter was the first to apply this new theory to surgical procedures. So, the next time you gargle with Listerine, you might want to say a silent thank you to all the men and women of science who had the guts to challenge those pompous idiots who, in true Semmelweis-reflex mode, did everything to discredit the new insights. And they usually are quite successful. Who wants to argue with a praetorian guard of honorable old professors. In Semmelweis' case, they got him barred from medical practice, they publicly ridiculed him and ultimately drove him to insanity. All the while women continued to die in childbed. Unsurprisingly, because medical textbooks continued to teach the old views on childbed fever until the 1890s. But once germ theory, and with it hygiene, was adopted into medicine and daily life, the mortality landscape changed dramatically. Infectious diseases disappeared from the pole position of the death tables, and the 1900s witnessed the emergence of their replacements: cardiovascular disease (CVD) in all its flavors, from hypertension and atherosclerosis to heart attack, stroke and heart failure.

Recently, potential triggers for those Semmelweis reflexes have been coming out of research, though probably not as dramatic in consequence as the infection theory...l

Read more: Why Medicine Might Be Wrong About Salt, Fat & BMI by drlutz Why Medicine Might Be Wrong About Salt, Fat & BMI by drlutz

mar09 · Nov 21, 2016

This is too valuable not to share: Kingdom Childbirth Class Slides

Although i started the thread not thinking it would mostly be childbirth posts, i really hope this be of help to the mothers- as well as fathers-to-be.

mar09 · Nov 30, 2016

There is a book that caught my attention. The title alone makes me wish I could still read it, but dont think i could now. A review of it says: I am thanking God for this book and thankful the author answered the call He made to her heart to write it. From its beginning, it is obvious that she is passionate about one thing -- Christ centered births. Not hospital births, not home births, just births where God is invited into that birthing room. She experienced this and wants her sisters in Christ to as well.
Deltra James

The book is:
Tolphin, Angie. Redeeming Childbirth.
https://www.amazon.com/Redeeming-Ch...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Z540R21FPE8E2JK0CMNR

mar09 · Jan 25, 2017

I cannot pass up sharing this from https://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/notetofathers.asp

[h=1]A Note To Fathers: It’s You She Wants
by Lois Wilson[/h][Editor's note: This article first appeared in Midwifery Today Issue 51, Autumn 1999.]
They are nineteen years old and in labor with their first child. Three months earlier they sat in my living room, asking questions and scribbling notes during childbirth classes. In many ways, they seemed to still be children themselves.
But not today. Today they are in labor. As each contraction begins to build, her small body loosens and lets go, her eyes close in concentration, her cheeks flush with effort. I sit and watch as he holds her, tears streaming down his face. Her pain is his pain. They are one in the process of birth.
Between contractions he wipes her face with a cool cloth, gently patting each eye with a tenderness that is like worship. As their labor unfolds I know that I am witnessing more than the birth of a baby. It is also the birth of a woman and a mother; the birth of a man and a father; the birth of a relationship that will never, ever be the same...

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