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Thread: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultilingualMessenger View Post
    This is true, that a man can be both a father and a son, but not his own father and his own son. (I say this because a son requires a father and a father requires a child; a son in this case.)

    Same essence doesn't necessarily mean same person. Likewise, three persons doesn't necessarily mean three essences (or three different gods). They are all God (same essence), in three persons (but not three essences), who agree on everything and work toward the same purposes.

    God said, "let us make man in our image and likeness". (Note that the persons are plural and the image and likeness are both singular.)
    In God all things are possible.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    In God all things are possible.
    All things except Him being one essence and three persons?

    Or all things?
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    I pray to one God. When God talks to me, he never says there are three of them.
    Is the God you pray to the One true and living God - indivisible, infinite; co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existing in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Each possessing the same essence and attributes of deity; deserving our obedience and reverence? Who the Father is not the Spirit; the Spirit is not the Son; and the Son is not the Father?

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultilingualMessenger View Post
    All things except Him being one essence and three persons?

    Or all things?
    I believe God is one person who is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, like a man can be simultaneously be a father, son, husband, professional baseball player, and whatnot. No one has convinced me there are three Gods. When I pray, I pray to one God, and when he answers me, he never says there are three of them. If it turns out there are three, that is just fine, but I don't think there are.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeNChrist View Post
    Is the God you pray to the One true and living God - indivisible, infinite; co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existing in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Each possessing the same essence and attributes of deity; deserving our obedience and reverence? Who the Father is not the Spirit; the Spirit is not the Son; and the Son is not the Father?
    I pray to the God of Abraham.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    I believe God is one person who is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, like a man can be simultaneously be a father, son, husband, professional baseball player, and whatnot. No one has convinced me there are three Gods. When I pray, I pray to one God, and when he answers me, he never says there are three of them. If it turns out there are three, that is just fine, but I don't think there are.
    I don't think anyone here believes that either. I even made pains to word my post carefully so as to be clear there's one God, but for one reason or another, you came back to the three god point.

    Paraphrasing for simplicity: you said God is one person, with three roles. I said God is one essence, with three persons.

    At this point, I think we might just be using different words to say the same thing. At least, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're not denying the Trinity.

    Likewise, it would be nice if you would stop pretending that people here believe in three gods...

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    I pray to the God of Abraham.
    ......Do you? Post #43 describes the God who is the God of Christianity and of Abraham. Is that who you pray to?
    Last edited by FreeNChrist; December 24th, 2016 at 04:21 PM.

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultilingualMessenger View Post
    I don't think anyone here believes that either. I even made pains to word my post carefully so as to be clear there's one God, but for one reason or another, you came back to the three god point.

    Paraphrasing for simplicity: you said God is one person, with three roles. I said God is one essence, with three persons.

    At this point, I think we might just be using different words to say the same thing. At least, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're not denying the Trinity.

    Likewise, it would be nice if you would stop pretending that people here believe in three gods...
    I am not pretending. I have expressed myself clearly and time again been accused of denying the Trinity. These people most certainly believe that God is three beings.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Jesus and the Father are One...

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeNChrist View Post
    ......Do you? Post #43 describes the God who is the God of Christianity and of Abraham. Is that who you pray to?
    I pray to the God of Abraham - simple is that. I cannot tell who you are describing in post #43.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultilingualMessenger View Post
    I don't think anyone here believes that either. I even made pains to word my post carefully so as to be clear there's one God, but for one reason or another, you came back to the three god point.

    Paraphrasing for simplicity: you said God is one person, with three roles. I said God is one essence, with three persons.

    At this point, I think we might just be using different words to say the same thing. At least, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're not denying the Trinity.

    Likewise, it would be nice if you would stop pretending that people here believe in three gods...
    I've made myself very clear and FreeNChrist says I am not a Christian. If you believe as I do, then I suspect he doesn't think you are a Christian, either.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultilingualMessenger View Post
    I don't think anyone here believes that either. I even made pains to word my post carefully so as to be clear there's one God, but for one reason or another, you came back to the three god point.

    Paraphrasing for simplicity: you said God is one person, with three roles. I said God is one essence, with three persons.

    At this point, I think we might just be using different words to say the same thing. At least, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're not denying the Trinity.

    Likewise, it would be nice if you would stop pretending that people here believe in three gods...
    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    I've made myself very clear and FreeNChrist says I am not a Christian. If you believe as I do, then I suspect he doesn't think you are a Christian, either.
    When he finds out, is he going to start riding you the way he is riding me?
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Does the OP of this thread help to alleviate / dispel any confusion...?

    Jesus Is Lord!
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    I suppose everyone who doesn't agree with you is a heretic.
    Apparently.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Jesus is God manifest in flesh,so of course He created all things as God.

    God reconciled the world unto Himself by Jesus Christ,God and man in harmony.

    Jesus is both God and man,the man Christ Jesus,so the man Christ Jesus also comes in to play in creation,and sometimes the Bible is speaking from that viewpoint.

    1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    There is but one God,the Father,of whom are all things,for God created all things,which Jesus is God so He created all things,and one Lord Jesus Christ,by whom are all things.

    Which means God created all things,and Jesus Christ,the visible manifestation of God,and the way God provided salvation,by whom are all things,for it is the plan of God coming in flesh that made all things possible.

    God created all things,but when it mentions Jesus it is saying that by Him all things were created,which means it is because of Jesus that made all creation successful.

    All things were created by God,but all things are by Jesus Christ,for Jesus Christ is the reason that creation was successful,because by Him we have salvation.

    So God created all things,but when it comes to mentioning Jesus,by Him are all things,for He is the reason that creation was successful,God coming in flesh,but Jesus is God so He created all things as God,but Him coming in flesh is was made it all possible.

    Which lets you know that the purpose of creation was for people,and the angels are ministering spirits sent to all who shall inherit eternal life,and the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints,because they will have a higher position in heaven than that of the angels.

    It was all created for mankind right from the get go,and God coming in flesh is the reason that God created everything.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Translated.

    1.In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh,and that plan was already with God before He laid down the foundation of the world,and that plan was God manifest in flesh.
    2.That plan was already with God in the beginning.
    3.All things were made because of the plan of God to come in flesh,and without that plan of God coming in flesh,God would of not created anything He created.

    So God created everything,of whom are all things,and one Lord Jesus Christ,by whom are all things,for it is because of God coming in flesh that made creation successful.

    So Jesus as God created all things,but the Bible also means by Jesus,God manifest in flesh,that all things were created,because without the plan of God to come in flesh,God would of not created anything that He created.

    So it is a dual meaning,Jesus as God created all things,but also the plan of God to come in flesh is the reason that all things were created.

    For there is one God,the Father,of whom is all things,and one Lord Jesus Christ,God manifest in flesh,by whom are all things.

    Of God,for He created all things,and by Jesus Christ,for He is the reason creation is successful,God manifest in flesh,the man Christ Jesus.

    It is because of the man Christ Jesus why creation is successful,who is God manifest in flesh.

    So when the Bible says by Jesus all things are created it means as the plan of God to come in the future in flesh,for that is the reason that God created anything that He created,and without that plan to come in flesh,God would of not created anything that He created.

    Of God,for He created all things,by Jesus Christ,God manifest in flesh,for that is what makes creation successful.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by GaryA View Post
    Does the OP of this thread help to alleviate / dispel any confusion...?

    Gary, I was up early this morning ready to post a reply to Post #4 "I believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person."

    But as I searched the scriptures, the day drew on and now it's late and I intend tomorrow to post the scriptures that lead me to question resurrection33's Post #4.

    This is the first time I have ever made a public post, so I'm not too good yet with thread management. However, I did take to heart with prayer and the best response I could to answer the one person (wwjd_kilden) who had a specific question for me with scripture references. She liked my response.

    In all reality the response I posted to wwjd_kilden, should have shed additional light to the plethora of verses I listed precept on precept in the original post. But my response to Post #4 tomorrow will highlight with scripture references the danger I see in holding to the position that the Father and the Son are the same person.

    Thanks for your patience.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndTheWordWasGOD View Post
    Thanks for your patience.
    Well, I appreciate your response; however, I think you misunderstood my post...

    The phrase 'this thread' in my post is a link to the first post in another thread. It was that post ( 'OP' meaning "original post" rather than "original poster" ) that I was referring to.

    Sorry for the confusion...?

    Jesus Is Lord!
    'KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS'
    "Glory to God; NONE to Satan. Forever, and Ever, and Ever. Amen, and Amen, and Amen."


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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    I believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person.
    In my Post #3 response I listed 7 different passages of scripture where the Messiah Himself spoke words that show distinct differences between Him and His Father. I will now list a few reasons why holding this opinion in light of the scriptures given by inspiration of God to correct our thinking unto the mind of Christ Jesus our Lord, is dangerous to our growth in Him.

    2Ti 3:16-17
    (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    (17) That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    2Co 10:5
    (5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

    Eph 4:14-16
    (14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    (15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    (16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


    Reason 1:
    I have not been able to find where God our Father is ever revealed in scripture as God our Brother. Christ is our brother and because He created us He is also our Father. God is Father of All, even and especially Father of Christ. We who overcome are revealed to become joint-heirs with Christ and brethren because He, "the Son of man," Himself, likewise took part of the same sinful flesh as the children of Abraham, though He (Christ) was God of all (God the Father being excepted).

    Rom 8:16-17
    (16) The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Heb 2:9-17
    (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God [please reference red words in John 3:16-18] should taste death for every man.
    (10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
    (11) For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
    (12) Saying, I will declare your name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
    (13) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God has given me.
    (14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    (15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
    (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    (17) Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    Reason 2:
    If we truly love and hope in Christ Jesus The Lord of Glory, we should be ever so careful not to hold opinions that insinuate that the scriptures which record His testimony show Him to be a liar. For then He could not be without spot or blemish, The Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. Please refer back to my response in Post #3 and the few additional scriptures below.

    Joh 8:13-18
    (13) The Pharisees therefore said unto him, You bear record of yourself; your record is not true.
    (14) Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
    (15) You judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
    (16) And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
    (17) It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
    (18) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    Joh 15:1-3
    (1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
    (2) Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
    (3) Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    Surely Jesus Christ The Son of God did lie in the above statements that make us clean.


    Joh 6:43-46
    (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    (45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.
    (46) Not that any man has seen the Father, save he which is of God, he has seen the Father.

    There are many more scriptures, but if a person doesn't believe that Christ spoke true words concerning His Father then more scripture might not help, but I have labored in faith of Christ that it may help; and so I continue.

    Reason 3:
    There are multiple places in scripture old testament and new where the inspired word leads us to envision both The Father and The Son of God in the same place at the same time. Those accounts should be used (I would think) to help establish our faith unless there are scriptures somewhere that clarify these visions to be understood in a different light (Please post them). There are more, but I just list a few from both testaments.

    Gen 22:2-8
    (2) And he said, Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom thou love, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
    (6) And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
    (7) And Isaac spoke unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
    (8) And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    John the baptizer announced the Lamb that God did provide (John 1:29, 36).

    Dan 7:13-14
    (13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    (14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Psa 45:6-7
    (6) Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the sceptre of your kingdom is a right sceptre.
    (7) Thou love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, your God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

    Act 2:29-35
    (29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    (31) He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    (32) This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    (33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
    (34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he says himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    (35) Until I make your foes your footstool.

    Act 7:52-56
    (52) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
    (53) Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
    (54) When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
    (55) But Stephen, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    (56) And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Heb 1:8-9
    (8) But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.
    (9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

    Rev 4:2
    (2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    Rev 5:1, 5
    (1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
    (5) And one of the elders says unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    Rev 5:6-10
    (6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    (7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    (8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    (9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou were slain, and hast redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    (10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Rev 5:13-14
    (13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.
    (14) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that lives forever and ever.

    You will notice in Revelations 4:8, 11 they praise and worship God our Father who is not a man**, and then a new song for the Lamb that was slain and then they worship them both that live forever and ever. **See Num 23:19, 1Sa 15:29, Job 9:32, Hos 11:9**

    Many more reasons:
    There are many more reasons and some of the most important of which I will most likely start new threads on if the will of God be so.

    I pray that this post at least gives food for thought as my only purpose for inquiry is that the body of Christ might be edified, which we as disciplined learners of Him are encouraged to do (Rom 14:19). Please post scripture as to why you hold this opinion.

    One additional question, in light of the below scripture, why would Jesus Christ our King have to then turn over the Kingdom to His Father if He didn't exist? The story could have been over with death and hell being swallowed up. And why would the inspired scriptures make manifest that HE, The Father (Who Christ said is greater than He is, though Christ is also God) is obviously excepted.

    1Co 15:24-28
    (24) Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    (25) For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet.
    (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    (27) For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    (28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    As believers in Christ Jesus and God our Father through the revelation of the Holy Spirit we should not hold opinions that contradict the Gospel message recorded in scripture. There are so many things still to cover but this response is very long already.

    Please post scripture as to why you hold this opinion keeping in mind 1 John 2:22-24.
    AndTheWordWasGOD

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndTheWordWasGOD View Post
    In my Post #3 response I listed 7 different passages of scripture where the Messiah Himself spoke words that show distinct differences between Him and His Father. I will now list a few reasons why holding this opinion in light of the scriptures given by inspiration of God to correct our thinking unto the mind of Christ Jesus our Lord, is dangerous to our growth in Him.

    2Ti 3:16-17
    (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    (17) That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    2Co 10:5
    (5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

    Eph 4:14-16
    (14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    (15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    (16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


    Reason 1:
    I have not been able to find where God our Father is ever revealed in scripture as God our Brother. Christ is our brother and because He created us He is also our Father. God is Father of All, even and especially Father of Christ. We who overcome are revealed to become joint-heirs with Christ and brethren because He, "the Son of man," Himself, likewise took part of the same sinful flesh as the children of Abraham, though He (Christ) was God of all (God the Father being excepted).

    Rom 8:16-17
    (16) The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Heb 2:9-17
    (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God [please reference red words in John 3:16-18] should taste death for every man.
    (10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
    (11) For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
    (12) Saying, I will declare your name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
    (13) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God has given me.
    (14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    (15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
    (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    (17) Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    Reason 2:
    If we truly love and hope in Christ Jesus The Lord of Glory, we should be ever so careful not to hold opinions that insinuate that the scriptures which record His testimony show Him to be a liar. For then He could not be without spot or blemish, The Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. Please refer back to my response in Post #3 and the few additional scriptures below.

    Joh 8:13-18
    (13) The Pharisees therefore said unto him, You bear record of yourself; your record is not true.
    (14) Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
    (15) You judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
    (16) And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
    (17) It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
    (18) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    Joh 15:1-3
    (1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
    (2) Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
    (3) Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    Surely Jesus Christ The Son of God did lie in the above statements that make us clean.


    Joh 6:43-46
    (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    (45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.
    (46) Not that any man has seen the Father, save he which is of God, he has seen the Father.

    There are many more scriptures, but if a person doesn't believe that Christ spoke true words concerning His Father then more scripture might not help, but I have labored in faith of Christ that it may help; and so I continue.

    Reason 3:
    There are multiple places in scripture old testament and new where the inspired word leads us to envision both The Father and The Son of God in the same place at the same time. Those accounts should be used (I would think) to help establish our faith unless there are scriptures somewhere that clarify these visions to be understood in a different light (Please post them). There are more, but I just list a few from both testaments.

    Gen 22:2-8
    (2) And he said, Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom thou love, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
    (6) And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
    (7) And Isaac spoke unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
    (8) And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    John the baptizer announced the Lamb that God did provide (John 1:29, 36).

    Dan 7:13-14
    (13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    (14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Psa 45:6-7
    (6) Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the sceptre of your kingdom is a right sceptre.
    (7) Thou love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, your God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

    Act 2:29-35
    (29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    (31) He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    (32) This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    (33) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
    (34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he says himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    (35) Until I make your foes your footstool.

    Act 7:52-56
    (52) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
    (53) Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
    (54) When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
    (55) But Stephen, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    (56) And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Heb 1:8-9
    (8) But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.
    (9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

    Rev 4:2
    (2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    Rev 5:1, 5
    (1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
    (5) And one of the elders says unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    Rev 5:6-10
    (6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    (7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    (8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    (9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou were slain, and hast redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    (10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Rev 5:13-14
    (13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.
    (14) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that lives forever and ever.

    You will notice in Revelations 4:8, 11 they praise and worship God our Father who is not a man**, and then a new song for the Lamb that was slain and then they worship them both that live forever and ever. **See Num 23:19, 1Sa 15:29, Job 9:32, Hos 11:9**

    Many more reasons:
    There are many more reasons and some of the most important of which I will most likely start new threads on if the will of God be so.

    I pray that this post at least gives food for thought as my only purpose for inquiry is that the body of Christ might be edified, which we as disciplined learners of Him are encouraged to do (Rom 14:19). Please post scripture as to why you hold this opinion.

    One additional question, in light of the below scripture, why would Jesus Christ our King have to then turn over the Kingdom to His Father if He didn't exist? The story could have been over with death and hell being swallowed up. And why would the inspired scriptures make manifest that HE, The Father (Who Christ said is greater than He is, though Christ is also God) is obviously excepted.

    1Co 15:24-28
    (24) Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    (25) For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet.
    (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    (27) For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    (28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    As believers in Christ Jesus and God our Father through the revelation of the Holy Spirit we should not hold opinions that contradict the Gospel message recorded in scripture. There are so many things still to cover but this response is very long already.

    Please post scripture as to why you hold this opinion keeping in mind 1 John 2:22-24.
    AndTheWordWasGOD
    [8] Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
    [9] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?” John 14:8-9 RSV
    _________________
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    Pray constantly. 1 Thess 5:17 RSV

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by GaryA View Post

    The phrase 'this thread' in my post is a link to the first post in another thread. It was that post ( 'OP' meaning "original post" rather than "original poster" ) that I was referring to.
    Thanks for the clarification GaryA, I didn't realize you were pointing to a link you had inserted. But I was going to respond to resurrection33's statement anyway. Your post just helped make sure that I did it today.

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