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Thread: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    [8] Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
    [9] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?” John 14:8-9 RSV
    Good answer. That coupled with your response, "With God all things are possible" to another poster, I think do show evidence of a firm faith in Jesus Christ, even though you view the scriptures in a different perspective than I do at this present time. Not that my opinion matters much.

    I also just saw a typo I made after Joh 15:1-3 and want to correct that now: "Surely Jesus Christ The Son of God did not lie in the above statements that make us clean."

    But do be careful as many in this day are using what's referred to as a "oneness approach" to the gospel and over time reject Christ as the Son of God.

    I am curious though ressurection33, do you believe that Jesus Christ died according to the scriptures? Most I've met with a "oneness" understanding don't believe that Christ really died. They can explain in a round about way how he kinda died but not really because God cannot die. I think that's dangerous so I'm curious to get your understanding of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection since these are fundamental to the faith recorded in the scriptures.

    1Co 15:1-4
    (1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    (2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    (3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

  2. #62
    Senior Member MultilingualMessenger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    [8] Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
    [9] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?” John 14:8-9 RSV
    Yep. Same nature (essence). But that still doesn't prove they are the same person. Two verses in particular come to mind immediately that don't exactly gell with the same-person idea.

    "But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." - Mark 13:32.

    Would the same person simultaneously know and not know the same piece of information?

    Also, Jesus says in John chapter 16, "but now I am going to the one who sent me. None of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you."

    Why would Jesus have to go to the one who sent him if he sent himself? And why would he leave so the Advocate (Holy Spirit) would come if they are the same person? Why would the Holy Spirit have to come if he was already there? If they were all the same person, it would stand to reason that Jesus wouldn't have had to go anywhere--to be with the Father or so the Holy Spirit would come--but would have just stuck around.

    You'd be hard-pressed to rationalize leaving to go to yourself to send yourself so you could come.
    Last edited by MultilingualMessenger; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndTheWordWasGOD View Post
    Good answer. That coupled with your response, "With God all things are possible" to another poster, I think do show evidence of a firm faith in Jesus Christ, even though you view the scriptures in a different perspective than I do at this present time. Not that my opinion matters much.

    I also just saw a typo I made after Joh 15:1-3 and want to correct that now: "Surely Jesus Christ The Son of God did not lie in the above statements that make us clean."

    But do be careful as many in this day are using what's referred to as a "oneness approach" to the gospel and over time reject Christ as the Son of God.

    I am curious though ressurection33, do you believe that Jesus Christ died according to the scriptures? Most I've met with a "oneness" understanding don't believe that Christ really died. They can explain in a round about way how he kinda died but not really because God cannot die. I think that's dangerous so I'm curious to get your understanding of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection since these are fundamental to the faith recorded in the scriptures.

    1Co 15:1-4
    (1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    (2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    (3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    It would depend on what you mean by "die." We all live eternally. Our bodies die but we pass on to the resurrection, as I understand it. I never gave this a lot of thought, but off the top of my head, yes, Jesus died. His body died.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultilingualMessenger View Post
    Yep. Same nature (essence). But that still doesn't prove they are the same person. Two verses in particular come to mind immediately that don't exactly gell with the same-person idea.

    "But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." - Mark 13:32.

    Would the same person simultaneously know and not know the same piece of information?

    Also, Jesus says in John chapter 16, "but now I am going to the one who sent me. None of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you."

    Why would Jesus have to go to the one who sent him if he sent himself? And why would he leave so the Advocate (Holy Spirit) would come if they are the same person? Why would the Holy Spirit have to come if he was already there? If they were all the same person, it would stand to reason that Jesus wouldn't have had to go anywhere--to be with the Father or so the Holy Spirit would come--but would have just stuck around.

    You'd be hard-pressed to rationalize leaving to go to yourself to send yourself so you could come.
    "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
    and his name shall be called Emmanuel"
    (which means, God with us). Matt 1:23 RSV
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
    and his name shall be called Emmanuel"
    (which means, God with us). Matt 1:23 RSV
    Of course, because again, they are the same nature.

    That still doesn't prove they are the same person.

    I don't mean to press you, but I really am curious as to how you would answer the questions I wrote in post 62. Would you please? It's like you completely overlooked them to post a verse that didn't prove your point, nor did it disprove mine. They were legitimate questions.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Trinitarians believe that Jesus is “the” God (or God incarnate). I believe that Jesus is “the Divine Son” (or the Son incarnate). The OP has shown scriptural evidences of the Father being the one calling the shots both before and after Jesus’ incarnation. We can see how it was God who “sent” Jesus into this world. In fact, Jesus even backs this up in John 8:42.

    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. [John 8:42 NASB]

    So, if Jesus is God, then God is sending Himself into this world. Yet, we see how Jesus claims that He did not come on His own accord, but that it was God who sent Him. This makes sense to me since I believe that God sent His Divine Son into this world and not Himself. I would like to hear a Trinitarian's perspective on this though.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultilingualMessenger View Post
    Of course, because again, they are the same nature.

    That still doesn't prove they are the same person.

    I don't mean to press you, but I really am curious as to how you would answer the questions I wrote in post 62. Would you please? It's like you completely overlooked them to post a verse that didn't prove your point, nor did it disprove mine. They were legitimate questions.
    God wanted to create a person who would set the perfect example for us to follow. Look at it that way. Such a person doesn't walk around saying, "I am God." And yet he​ WAS God.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    It would depend on what you mean by "die." We all live eternally. Our bodies die but we pass on to the resurrection, as I understand it. I never gave this a lot of thought, but off the top of my head, yes, Jesus died. His body died.
    When we die, the spirit returns to God who gave it. This is why Jesus cried, "Father into your hands I commend my Spirit." If Jesus and His Father were the same person, then They would both die and all would be lost.

    Christians are seeking to encapsulate all of the scriptures into their short statements of faith. There's a reason why people cling to the concept of the trinity and why the scriptures point to the fact that God and His Son are One God by the Holy Spirit (which is their essential make up), but not the same person. That same Holy Spirit is how we become One with The Father and His Son. Read John Chapter 17, Christ is earnestly praying these things to His Father which is in Heaven (while Christ was on earth with His disciples preparing to give up His life for the sheep).

    Ecc 12:7
    (7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Luk 23:45-46
    (45) And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
    (46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Joh 17:9-24
    (9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
    (10) And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
    (11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    (20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    (21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    (22) And the glory which thou gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    (23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    (24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world.

    This is why God had to forsake Christ on the cross. He (God our Father) had to turn away His Face and His Spirit, for Christ our Great God and King of Glory was accursed for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS. And as a result for the first time God would not only experience death, but also separation from His Father who Christ said was His God. This is why John 3:16 is the pillar of our faith and the understanding of how much God loved/loves man whom He created. Because He gave up His only Begotten Son that we might have life with Him for eternity. Amen.

    Mat 27:46
    (46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    But it was only for a small moment...... because it is written.......

    Isa 54:7-8
    (7) For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
    (8) In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
    Praise and Glory and Honor be unto God and The Lamb Who was slain!!!! For in their works we have redemption; praise God for His Everlasting Gospel!

    Gal 3:13-14
    (13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:
    (14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    God wanted to create a person who would set the perfect example for us to follow. Look at it that way. Such a person doesn't walk around saying, "I am God." And yet he​ WAS God.
    Whoa...Jesus was not created. He was there in the beginning...(in the beginning was the Word). He was begotten, not made.

    So your position is that Jesus was created, and so therefore he and the Father are the same person?

    Er?
    AndTheWordWasGOD and G00WZ like this.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    God wanted to create a person who would set the perfect example for us to follow. Look at it that way. Such a person doesn't walk around saying, "I am God." And yet he​ WAS God.
    Now I'm confused. God wanted to create Himself?

    God and Christ were not created. They are the Self Existing by The Holy Spirit from the beginning.

    I must be misunderstanding what you wrote. Please clarify.....

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

    Revelation 3:14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

    Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, THROUGH whom also He made the worlds

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndTheWordWasGOD View Post
    Now I'm confused. God wanted to create Himself?

    God and Christ were not created. They are the Self Existing by The Holy Spirit from the beginning.

    I must be misunderstanding what you wrote. Please clarify.....
    Don't get tied up in semantics.
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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    Don't get tied up in semantics.
    Um, the difference between "created" and "begotten" kinda matters. A lot.

    You can't brush this one away, as you have brushed away several other good points and questions made to you in this thread.

    In case it's not clear, I'm gonna have to retract my earlier statement about us expressing the same concept using different words. If you believe that God--whether the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit--was created, we most definitely are not on the same page.

    I would hope nobody else is on your page.
    maxwel and AndTheWordWasGOD like this.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God"....Jesus is the Word of God"....
    ...In Genesis you can see how God spoke everything into existence using words...

    John 5:19 " so Jesus explained, "I tell you the truth, the son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does."

    So.. in short God initiates something by speaking it and Jesus makes whatever it is manifest... And He does it not because he was told to, He does this because it's who HE is, the Word.

    God initiated the creation, and it was done through Jesus, making it manifest, and it was the same thing with the miracles.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    "Don't get tied up in semantics."
    I hope that you are not serious with the "semantics comment" and that a real clarifying response is forthcoming?

    Please don't be slippery.... That's the kind of stuff I was talking about in Post #61 that I've experienced with some of those holding to a "oneness approach" in their understanding of the Gospel of God. I've found that down the road they eventually end up denying the Divinity of Jesus Christ The Son of God.


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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    @AndTheWordWasGOD

    Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

    I have no stance on this yet. But, I have been thinking about this verse in particular where Jesus seems to show a different will than G-d the father by asking G-d the father to take "this cup from me."

    I know this is late, but better late than never.
    Last edited by Calmador; 1 Week Ago at 03:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    James 1:13-15
    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

    Hebrews 4:15
    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    I believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person.
    The Father, while His Son was on the cross, forsook His Son. The triune God is One of unity, but they are three distinct Persons in the Godhead. What you are saying teeters upon modalism.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    Another Trinity argument? I can't believe there are three Gods. I believe in one who serves as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is the Creator, Jesus is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is God when he talks to us. But you don't believe that, and we could go round and round till the cows come home.
    This reeks of modalism. The oneness Pentecostal doctrine.

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    Default Re: Did Jesus Create All Things At His Father's Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    This reeks of modalism. The oneness Pentecostal doctrine.
    Yes, it does, because it is.

    Wonder if the Holy Spirit isn't God when He doesn't talk to us, or is He God only when He does? Maybe Jesus is the Father too, since He is Creator? (Colossians 1, John 1).

    But I digress, such misnomers and errors arise when people just make up what they want to believe, package it, and call it truth and/or Christianity. 2 Timothy 4:3 is in order as it is being departed from more and more.
    People are offended that God is God.

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