Lets talk about the Quran

So Ive been reading the quran here and there, and Ive seen some verses being thrown around that arent really what they seem to be, so Ive decided to to make a thread about it so that we can talk about it, and maybe people more knowledgeable than me can share some stuff too : p
Im bringing up something I read today, but anything about the quran can be discussed.
Anything related to the quran can be discussed. BUT, if you want to make the argument that Islam is a peaceful religion, avoid talking about Muslims alone. Since this is about the quran, try to keep it about the quran alone, using arguments from it.

Note: the topic is the quran, for those who do not know, Islam exists to deny Jesus Christ of the Gospel. Be aware that there will be verses about Him that are false, and that the quran denies Him of His divinity and claims He was "nothing more than a messenger" of allah.

So theres a popular quran verse Ive been seeing floating around online lately in defense of Islam. Its a verse from chapter 60 of the quran. Heres the verse.

Quran 60:8
"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly."

So, this verse on its own, with nothing else around it, has been appearing here and there online. And yeah, it totally sounds reasonable and seems to fit inline with what those who speak out in defense of Islam say. It doesnt command to fight unbelievers, it only says that self defense against those who attack Muslims is acceptable. So I decided to read the chapter myself.

Its funny though, cuz when I googled Quran 60, I just got multiple links to this one single verse : p Keep in mind I did not google Quran 60:8. I only googled Quran 60. Thats how much others want you to see this one verse : p

I did find the chapter though, here is the entire chapter, and Im gonna bold a few verses here and there to make a point-

Quran 60-
O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as allies, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah, your Lord. If you have come out for jihad in My cause and seeking means to My approval, [take them not as friends]. You confide to them affection, but I am most knowing of what you have concealed and what you have declared. And whoever does it among you has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.


If they gain dominance over you, they would be to you as enemies and extend against you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they wish you would disbelieve.


Never will your relatives or your children benefit you; the Day of Resurrection He will judge between you. And Allah, of what you do, is Seeing.


There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination.


Our Lord, make us not [objects of] torment for the disbelievers and forgive us, our Lord. Indeed, it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."


There has certainly been for you in them an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day. And whoever turns away - then indeed, Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.


Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.


Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.


O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.


And if you have lost any of your wives to the disbelievers and you subsequently obtain [something], then give those whose wives have gone the equivalent of what they had spent. And fear Allah, in whom you are believers.


O Prophet, when the believing women come to you pledging to you that they will not associate anything with Allah, nor will they steal, nor will they commit unlawful sexual intercourse, nor will they kill their children, nor will they bring forth a slander they have invented between their arms and legs, nor will they disobey you in what is right - then accept their pledge and ask forgiveness for them of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


O you who have believed, do not make allies of a people with whom Allah has become angry. They have despaired of [reward in] the Hereafter just as the disbelievers have despaired of [meeting] the inhabitants of the graves.
[END]

Theres a few lines I wanted to point out here-

I believe that there is a strong case here for the argument that this chapter isnt entirely about just living in peace with the non-believers, but living in peace with them WHEN it is beneficial to do so, as in, when they are not the majority of the population of a certain area, and are in danger of being the ones who would be persecuted.

I decided to go ahead and read the next chapter as well, just to feed my curiosity here : p

Quran chapter 61-
Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth exalts Allah, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.


O you who have believed, why do you say what you do not do?


Great is hatred in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do.


Indeed, Allah loves those who fight in His cause in a row as though they are a [single] structure joined firmly.


And [mention, O Muhammad], when Moses said to his people, "O my people, why do you harm me while you certainly know that I am the messenger of Allah to you?" And when they deviated, Allah caused their hearts to deviate. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.


And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."


And who is more unjust than one who invents about Allah untruth while he is being invited to Islam. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.


They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.


It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.


O you who have believed, shall I guide you to a transaction that will save you from a painful punishment?


[It is that] you believe in Allah and His Messenger and strive in the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. That is best for you, if you should know.


He will forgive for you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence. That is the great attainment.


And [you will obtain] another [favor] that you love - victory from Allah and an imminent conquest ; and give good tidings to the believers.


O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
[END]

Id like to point out that last line there, that the Muslims of Israel who followed Jesus became dominant over the non-believers of Jesus, there is no recorded history of that AT ALL other than Muhammad saying it happened : p

But yeah, after reading this chapter, directly after chapter 60, it doesnt really seem to be about peace at all. It seems to be another chapter about victory and conquest, and dominating the non-believer.

I think its really for the best that people stop taking these one line verses in the quran about peace at face value, because there are often verses right after it that teach the exact opposite. There is so many verses about victory, conquest and dominance over the unbelievers and all other religions in the quran, but people always end up ignoring them because the once saw a nice sounding verses in the quran, or they knew a Muslim who was really cool once.

These are the kinda things we should be talking about when it comes to Islam, imo. I dont believe that most people will actually look into a verse that they are shown from the quran, much like an atheists will take one line from the Bible in order to paint Christianity as evil, while ignoring every other verse around it. It is entirely easy to be confused about what a doctrine teaches when you are only given one small verse while having no knowledge about the rest of it.

Amen ! It's all about the context !

[video=youtube;qv1cWoa-N_U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv1cWoa-N_U&t=249s[/video]

The greatest threat to terrorist groups like the Islamic State, The Taliban, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab, and Al-Qaeda, is not a UN resolution or the US Military. The greatest threat to terrorists is an informed population, because only an informed population can undermine the ideology that gives rise to jihad.

With this in mind, let's go through 10 facts about the Qur'an, history's
most effective manual for violently subjugating nations and cultures.

Fact number 1: The word Qur'an means recitation. The Qur'an is something that is supposed to be recited from memory. Muhammad and his companions weren't big on reading, and in Muhammad's time, portions of the Qur'an were only written down as memory aids. It wasn't until later that some of his followers came up with the idea of putting it all together into book form.

So, why would Muslims want to recite the Qur'an? Because:

Fact number 2: Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah. The angel Gabriel, as the story goes, delivered verses to Mohammed, and Mohammad passed these verses on to his followers. But as far as the Qur'an is concerned, Gabriel and Muhammad were mailmen. It's the word of Allah not the words of Gabriel or Muhammad. Why do Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah? Because:

Fact number 3: Muhammad said so.

The Qur'an was supposedly revealed to one man, Muhammad. Unlike the Bible, which contains numerous shorter works written by around 40 different authors, the Qur'an stands or falls with the lone testimony of Mohammed, a guy who's first impression of his revelations was that they were demonic, a guy who repeatedly tried to kill himself, a guy who believed he was the victim of magic spells that give him delusional thoughts and false beliefs. A guy who delivered versus to his followers and later blamed the devil for tricking him. A guy who had sex with a nine year old girl, had nine wives at one time, even though the Qur'an says Muslims can only have four, married the divorced wife of his own adopted son after causing the divorce; told his followers that it is okay to beat their wives into submission, and so on.

So... What evidence did Muhammad offer to show that his revelations were from Allah?

Fact number four: Muhammad's main argument for the inspiration of the Qur'an, was what we'll call the argument from literary excellence, one of the silliest arguments ever offered by anyone for anything. My poetry is better than your poetry,so my poetry must be the inspired word of Allah. The idea is that no one can produce something as wonderful as or more wonderful than the Qur'an.

Now, there are all kinds of things we could do to make the Qur'an better than it is. We could take out the verses about slaughtering unbelievers or about raping female captives or about having sex with pre-pubescent girls But one simple way to improve the Qur'an would be to put it in chronological order because:

Fact number 5: The Qur'an is not arranged chronologically. Apart from the first chapter, which is a short prayer, the rest of the Qur'an is basically arranged from the longest chapters to the shortest chapters. But the longer chapters were generally much later than the shorter chapters, so the Qur'an is thoroughly disorganized, making it very difficult to read. You might not care about the order, but it's actually extremely important, because"

Fact number 6: Some parts of the Qur'an abrogate or cancel other parts of the Qur'an. Later revelations typically abrogate earlier revelations, but since the Qur'an isn't arranged chronologically, we don't know which verses are cancelled, and which versus still apply, without massive collections of commentaries to help sift through this mess.

You will recall that the main argument for its divine origin is that it is so incredibly well-written, that it must be from God. Yes so wonderfully written that nobody can understand what they're supposed to do without consulting a team of scholars. This is my modern take on the Qur'an; what did Muhammad's contemporaries think of it?

Fact number seven: Muhammad's contemporaries were convinced that the Qur'an was plagiarized from earlier sources. How do we know what they thought about the Qur'an? We know because the Qur'an repeatedly tells us that Muhammad's contemporaries accused him of stealing his stories from others. How did Muhammad respond to charges of plagiarism? He declared that:

Fact number 8: The Qur'an is a continuation of previous scriptures. The reason so much the Qur'an sounded so familiar to the people of Arabia wasn't that Muhammad was plagiarizing earlier sources, those earlier sources were also the word of Allah. That's why they sounded the same!

Of course Muslims today know that those earlier sources thoroughly contradict the Qur'an, so they are forced to claim that the earlier sources were corrupted. This is extremely odd because:

Fact number 9: The Qur'an was only compiled into a book because much of it was lost. According to Muslim sources, entire chapters of the Qur'an were forgotten. Large passages came up missing, verses vanished. This is in spite of the fact that Allah promised, He promised in chapter 15 Verse 9, to protect the Qur'an from corruption. He couldn't do it, which calls into question the rest of what he said in the Qur'an. Why is this relevant? Because:

Fact number ten: The Qur'an is the highest authority on matters of sharia:

Raping female captives, beating women into submission, chopping off
hands for stealing, grown men marrying little girls. These things come
from this book (the Qur'an), which most certainly is not the word of God.

Learn these facts, my friends, and share them with others.

the quran????

more like the qurap..... am i right?




lol sorry

islame joke (<2)

lol my apoligies


tired from work and thought of the 2nd pun before the first dorky joke

Its okay, we <2 you too : p

Oh, pfffft Im just now realizing I put this in the wrong section. I was in a hurry when I posted this, I thought I was in miscellaneous : /

If a mod could move this to miscellaneous, that would be really awesome.

Facts About the Qur'an (Part One)

Islam is a collection of teachings and practices that were common in Arabia
during the time of Muhammad. There were several tribes of Jews preaching
monotheism in Arabia. These Jews had the Torah, along with tons of other
stories that were recorded in the Talmud, and other sources. Many of the
stories in these additional sources were based on Biblical characters, but
they were fictitious. Stories about Abraham being delivered from a fire,
or a bird teaching Cain to bury his brother, or Solomon talking to animals.

Muhammad heard the stories, and now they're in the Qur'an.

There were also a variety of tales about Jesus and Mary, that certain
heretical Christian groups believed, stories about Jesus speaking at birth,
Jesus giving life to clay birds; Mary giving birth under a palm tree, and so on.

No historian on the planet believes that these stories are authentic,
but they were popular in Arabia during the 7th century.

Muhammad heard them, and now they're in the Qur'an.

In Sura 18, Allah tells us that Alexander the Great traveled so far west
he found the place where the sun sets. This was a popular story during
Muhammad's lifetime; Muhammad heard it, now it's in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an even claims that Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim,
when we know historically that he was a complete pagan.

During Muhammad's time, the Sabians, who are mentioned several
times in the Qur'an, recited a creed, "there is no God but Allah."
Muhammad heard this creed and simply added the words, "and
Muhammad is his messenger." The Sabians also prayed at all 5 of
the times Muslims pray during their prescribed daily prayers.

Some of the Persians believed that after death, a paradise of sensual
delights awaited them, complete with houris, the perpetual virgins
Muslims believe they will be awarded in Paradise.

It seems that Muhammad simply took a bunch of the beliefs and
practices the were popular in 7th century Arabia, gave them an
Islamic twist, and incorporated them into his new religion.

The pagans, by the way, thought this was hilarious.
They regularly made fun of Muhammad for believing
everything he heard, so they called him "the ear."

Let's read a passage from Ib'-- about Muhammad
and one of his critics a man named Nabtal bin al-Harith

I have heard that it was of him that the Apostle said, whoever wants
to see Satan let him take a look at Nabtal -- He was a sturdy man
with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks.
He used to come and talk to the apostle and listen to him, and
then carry what he had said to the hypocrites. It was he who said,
Mohammed is all ears. If anyone tells him anything, he believes it.
God sent down concerning him, in Sura 9:61 of the Qur'an, and of
them are those who annoy the profit, and say he is all ears, say,
good ears for you. He believes in God and trusts the believers and
is a mercy for those of you who believe; and those who annoy the
apostle of God, for them is a painful punishment.

So the pagans could tell that Muhammad was simply
adopting stories and practices for Islamic purposes.

[video=youtube;Rxj41M-xwa0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxj41M-xwa0[/video]

Not surprisingly the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, is saturated
in paganism and idolatry. During the Hajj, Muslims walk circles around
the Kaaba, the cubicle shrine that they pray to. They kiss the black stone.
They run back and forth between the hills of Safa and Malwa and so on.

Where do they get these practices? Before Muhammad conquered
Mecca, the Kaaba was a center of pagan worship in Arabia. The
Kaaba was surrounded by three hundred and sixty pagan idols.

24:78 -- Narrated
The prophet entered Mecca, and at that time there were 360 idols
around the Kaaba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had
in his hand, and reciting, and say, truth i.e. Islamic monotheism or this
Jihad against polytheists has come, and Satan, or polytheism, has vanished.

This is when Muhammad took control of the Kaaba.

But why would he want to take control of a pagan
temple and make it the center of Islamic worship?

Let's back up a bit. When Muhammad and his followers were in
Mecca years earlier, they prayed facing Jerusalem. The pagans
prayed facing the Kaaba. Muslims prayed facing Jerusalem like
the Jews. You can line up the Kaaba and Jerusalem if you wanted
so that you were facing both, but the direction of prayer was Jerusalem.

When Muhammad was in Mecca he really thought
that the Jews were going to accept him as a prophet.

The Muslim Community eventually moved to Medina, and the Jews
could tell immediately that Muhammad was a false prophet, because
they knew the Torah, and Muhammad only knew some stories that
he had heard. He was all ears, remember.

But Muhammad could not even get those stories right, so the Jews
rejected him, and Allah said to Muhammad in Sura 2:144

Now shall we turn thee to a Quibla that shall please thee. Turn
then thy face in the directions of the sacred mosque. (2:144)

So Allah's goal goal in telling Muslims to face the Kaaba, was
to please Muhammad. It's amazing how much of Islam is
dedicated to pleasing the man who was receiving the revelations.

Why would facing the Kaaba please Muhammad? Two reasons:

One~ he was sending the Jews a message: this is what you get for
rejecting me. Two~ Muhammad had grown up among pagans who
prayed facing the Kaaba and all its idols. So praying to the Kaaba
was normal for them; it felt right. But how could Muhammad justify
praying towards a pagan shrine? Well, just a few verses earlier, (2:127)
Allah declared that the Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ishmael.

Now that's interesting. If it was built by Abraham and Ishmael, why
did Muslims spend more than a decade praying towards Jerusalem?
Why does it seem like Mohammed is inventing this as he goes along?

One of life's great mysteries! (haha I know, right?)

But what evidence do we have that the Kaaba was built by Abraham and
Ishmael? Absolutely none apart from the fact that Muhammad said it.
That's good enough for Muslims, but it shouldn't be. Muhammad had
absolutely no clue what he was talking about, and I can prove it.

3366 narrated Abu Dhar
I said, oh Allah's messenger! Which mosque was first built on the
surface of the Earth? He said, at Makkah. I said, which was built
next? He replied, at Jerusalem. I said, what was the period of
construction between the two? He said, 40 years.

According to Muhammad, there was a 40-year gap between the
construction of the Kaaba and the temple in Jerusalem.

Why is this important? Well, we know when the Jerusalem Temple
was built; Solomon built it in the 10th century BC.

That's more than 1,000 years after Abraham. If Abraham built the
Kaaba, he built it more than a thousand years before Solomon built
the Jerusalem Temple. But Muhammad said they were built 40 years apart.

So we need to ask our Muslim friends, where did Abraham and Ishmael
get their time machine? Because if they didn't have a time machine,
Muhammad was wrong, and we can't trust what he says about the
construction of the Kaaba, and without Muhammad making up
stories about Abraham and Ishmael and the Kaaba, the only
evidence we have tells us that Muslims are bowing down to a
pagan temple and taking a pilgrimage to a pagan temple and
walking circles around a pagan temple.

By the way, why do Muslims walk circles around the Kaaba?
The pagans walked circles around the Kaaba, too.

Why did they do that? This is about half the video transcribed.
I will carry on with the second half later tonight
Thank you for reading and/or listening... Have a great day!

For some reason I'm reminded of the Earthworks measurement microphone. I know I've mentioned it on this forum multiple times, but this thread reminds me of it again.

Pagan practices proliferate in Islam.

Picking up again where we left off, @ 7:48

By the way, why do Muslims walk circles around the Kaaba? The
pagans walked circles around the Kaaba too. Why did they do that?

The Muslim scholar and Qur'an translator Yusaf Ali, in his
commentary on the Qur'an, has an appendix on ancient forms
of pagan worship. He writes, It will be noticed that the Sun and
the Moon and the five planets got identified each with a living
deity, god or goddess, with characteristic qualities of its own.

The ancients knew about the stars and constellations, but they also
knew about seven heavenly objects that seemed to have their own motions:
the sun, the moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. They
didn't have telescopes yet so they didn't know about the other planets.

According to the pagans, each of these seven heavenly objects was
orbiting the earth, and each was associated with a particular pagan deity.

Why did the pagans of Mecca circle the Kaaba seven times? To honor
and worship the seven planetary deities that they believed were circling
the Earth. This is as pagan as you can possibly get, and now this thoroughly
pagan practice is one of the five pillars of Islam. But let me guess: if it
looks like paganism, and walks like paganism, and talks like paganism,
it must be pure monotheism in disguise, right?

When they visit the Kaaba, Muslims do their best to kiss the black stone.
That's funny! The pagans of Arabia used to worship stones, too.



4376 Narrated Abu Raja al Utaridi: we used to worship stones, and
when we found a better stone than the first one, we would throw
the first stone and take the latter, but if we could not get a stone, then
we would collect some earth (meaning soil), and then bring a sheep,
and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it. When
the month of Rajab came, we used to stop the military actions, calling
this month the iron remover, because we used to remove and throw away
the iron parts of every spear and arrow in the month of Rajab.

What did the pagans worship? A stone. And they would trade that
stone for a better stone to worship. When does that process stop?

When you get to the best stone, the black stone, at the Kaaba.
That's what the pagans did. What do Muslims do when they get
to the Kaaba? They kiss the black stone. It's as if Muslims are saying,
we want to be as idolatrous as possible, but we're still not idolaters.


Interestingly, even Muhammad's companions understood that kissing
the black stone was idolatry, but they kept doing it anyway, because
Muhammad had done it. 1597 Narrated Naris bin Abis we read:

Ramar came near the Black stone and kissed it and said, no doubt
I know you are a stone, and can neither harm anyone nor benefit
anyone. Had I not seen Allah's messenger kissing you,
I would not have kissed you.

This is Umar, the second rightly guided Caliph, saying that he
knows he shouldn't be kissing a pagan idol like the black stone,
but he does it anyway, because Muhammad did it.

But there is more idolatry during the Hajj. When the pagans took
the pilgrimage to Mecca, they would run back and forth between
the hills of Al-Safa and Al-Marwah. They ran back and forth between
them to honor the pagan idols. Yusaf Ali comments on Sura 2:158
of the Qur'an: The virtue of patient perseverance in faith leads to the
mention of two symbolic monuments of that virtue. These are the two
little hills of Safa and Marwah now absorbed in the city of Makkah
(Mecca) and close to the well of Zamzam. Here, according to tradition,
the lady Hagar, mother of the infant Ishmael, prayed for water in the
parched desert, and in her eager quest round these hills, she found
her prayer answered, and saw the Zamzam spring. Unfortunately the
pagan Arabs had placed a male and a female idol here, and their gross
and superstitious rites caused offense to the early Muslims.

Now, how do we know that Hagar and Ishmael were ever at these hills?
Because Muhammad said it, right? And Muhammad's the guy who
thought that Abraham and Solomon lived forty years apart, and that
Alexander the Great was a Muslim: least reliable source of historical
information ever. But what do we actually know here?

We know that pagans used to run back and forth as part of
their idol worship, and the early Muslims knew this as well.

3847 narrated by Ibn Abas: To run along the valley between the two
green pillars of As-Safa and Malwara (mountains), was not Sunna, but
the people in the pre-Islamic period of ignorance used to run along it and
used to say, "We do not cross this rain stream except running in great haste."

Now, this is devastating to Islam, because Ibn Abas says this practice
was just a pagan practice. It wasn't part of the sunna of Muhammad.

Notice the commentary at the bottom: This statement of Ibn Abas
is wrong, as most of the religious scholars consider it As-Sunna
of the prophet. Most of the religious scholars, in order to rescue
Islam, have to throw Ibn Abas under the bus. This is getting ridiculous!

(2574) Narrated 'Asim bin Sulaiman: I asked Anas bin Malik about Safa
and Marwa. Anas replied, "We used to consider (i.e. going around) them
a custom of the Pre-islamic period of Ignorance, so when Islam came, we
gave up going around them. Then allah revealed" "Verily, Safa and Marwa
(i.e. two mountains at Mecca) are among the symbols of allah. So it is not
harmful (sin) of those who perform the Hajj (pilgrimage) of the House
(Kaaba) at Mecca - or perform the Umra to ambulate (Tawaf) between
them." (2.158) (Book #60, Hadith #23) [video said 4496]

[video=youtube;Rxj41M-xwa0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxj41M-xwa0[/video]

Here again the early Muslims understood that this was a pagan practice.
They sad that they stopped doing it when they became Muslims, but
Muhammad liked it, so it ended up in the Qur'an.

How much paganism can you fit into one religion?

Quite a bit, it seems. And two things are amazing here:

First, it's amazing that Muslims who are swimming in a sea of pagan
practices are deluded enough to think that they're the true champions
of monotheism. They're doing everything the pagans did.
They just rename it, monotheism.

Second, the pagans of Arabia were local groups. They weren't going to spread
their pagan practices around the world, but Islam has taken the same idolatrous
pagan nonsense practiced by the Meccans and spread it around the world.

This means that Islam is the greatest source of idolatry and paganism
in history. Now to you Muslims who insist on taking the pilgrimage
to Mecca, in spite of its pagan roots, I make a simple request: watch the
video where I talk about the Kaaba, and how you can convert your false
pagan worship into something that actually involves God. I'm not sure
you'll like it, but it will definitely be an improvement over spending your
lives kissing a pagan rock, and running around a pagan cube, and
celebrating the seven false planetary deities, and having no idea that
you've been duped. The chief export of Saudi Arabia is not oil, it's
paganism, and terrorism... off topic but I couldn't resist.

David gets a lot of comments from people who practice this "peaceful"
pagan religion, many of them death threats. Thank you Lord for providing
teachers who stand up for Truth despite the bullies and opposition to facts.

Maybe next you can read the satanic bible and find some verses that are not what they seem to be




That's cause it's a false religion and we don't care!

Our walk is with the Lord, not our reading what false gods are saying in their anti-Christ literature.

We have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ and His anointing of power and His love... that's what makes the difference, not arguing and debating with muzlims on a carnal minded level to see if one can match wits with them.

[FONT=&quot]This is part of an inscriprtion on the "dome of the rock" which sits upon Gods temple mount in Jerusalem even today, its forbidden to have a bible when you go into the area, or to speak of Gods Son. the entire religion is anti Son of God, or anti Christ. its interesting because thoer prophetic writings are very much in opposition to the Christian prophetic writings for instance in revelation were told about christians being slaughtered, and in thiers, its about a time when they will slaughter christians in the same ways beheadings in both. The also have a different "messiah" type which will come to prove with miraculous powers, that indeed God has "no son" which really is the foundation of christianity john 3:16. Ive always thought and now even moreso believe that its the religion of anti christ. The quran also males these statements
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"NE better for you! – God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender. The Messiah will never scorn to be a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]N servant unto God, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him. Oh God, bless Your Messenger and Your servant Jesus[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NW son of Mary. Peace be on him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the day he shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary, (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. It befitteth not (the Majesty of) God that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him!"


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O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say anything concerning Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers . . .” (Quran 4:171; see also 66:12)
In the above passage Jesus in called by four noble titles. He is the Messiah, the Messenger of Allah, a Word from Allah, and a Spirit from Allah. In the same passage, it is clear that the Quran seeks to discourage exaggeration in religion. Further in the same passage, Allah says:
“Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.” (Quran 4:171)

Like satan always does, the quoran seems to honor Jesus son of mary as a messenger, even tells of Him coming in the end to defeat anti Christ....BUT then he will step down and let mohammed lead the prayers, then Jesus will be married, live awhile and die, and then be resurrected in the end.

it truly is a design of the subtle beast in the beginning, deception and is all about world domination and "striking terror in the hearts of non believers" its really not hard to see why it drives the heart of terrorism, why they are responsible for so many christian martyrs a good share of the 90,000 killed last year alone world wide, and they are the fastest growing religion on earth. the quran teaches either join them or be killed and driven out until thier god is in control


interesting post, The true God and father of Our Lord Jesus Christ bless you

Magenta; excellent info. These are the best posts I have read on CC in a while.

I have read some of the quaran and read some short books about it and Islam. There is no doubt in my mind the book and the religion have all the earmarks of Satan being the true author.

What I find particularly revealing is Satan, who it is believed was the angel of praise and worship music, forbids it in Islam.
Of course their are many other tell tale signs that point to this religion being of the evil one.
This is why some liberals are defending it and drawn to it like bees to honey. They are of the same spirit.

What an odd thing for you to say ->

Also, bringing up the satanic bible is kinda silly. Most people really dont take satanism all that seriously, its mostly followed by edgy rebellious teens, most of whom are just atheists who are trying to find a way to be edgy and different.

Islam, however, is the second largest religion in the world, claims to be from Jesus Christ, and is the biggest deception of Christianity. I mean someone could argue that Catholicism is, but at the very least it doesnt deny who He is and what He did for us. Many people like to point to Islam when trying to disprove Christianity, and thanks to Islam, the secular community has come to believe that Jesus' identity is "merely a matter of interpretation".

And I absolutely disagree with anyone that claims its wrong for a Christian to debate with others, if we cannot stand for our argument, and make a case for what we choose to follow, there will be alot less people willing to follow Christ.
Muslims evangelicals work just as much to lead others to Islam as we do for Christianity, they are working to lead others to their prophet Muhammad daily, and work together to form arguments for their case. Lets say you are in a group listening to a Muslim teach about Islams Jesus. He tells them he was no more than a prophet of allah, did not die on the cross for our sins and never said He was the Son of God. And that He only came to say "worship allah" and to bow before the kabba stone and to fight the unbelievers.

Of course, youd want to say that none of that is true. So the audience looks at you, theyre attention is now being given to you, and you are now a representative for Christianity. If you didnt know how to debate with Islam, you are gonna lead others to believe that Islam is the truth.

Its good to know how Islam is false. Even with my post, we know that Jesus said to love your enemy, to give the other cheek, and that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Even this can be used to show that Muhammad couldnt be farther from sharing the same message as Christ.

I did the exact same thing here last week.

Haha, yeah I think its interesting that John warned us of those who would pull those in the synagogues out to kill them, believing they offer God service, while the hadiths specifically say that the Muslims will be gathered against the Jews in the last day that the rocks will cry out to kill the Jews hiding behind them : p

1 John 2:22 tells us that the antichrist denies the Father and the Son. Islams entire purpose for existing is to deny the Father and the Son. I believe it is extremely important for every Christian to know that : p

Another interesting verse says "Allah is the greatest of deceivers", ironically Satan is known as the great deceiver / the father of lies. Not to mention even their precious prophet muhammad was unsure about his salvation which says alot.

Another of his 99 names are "the most proud", that one gave me chills when I heard it : p

And yup, Muhammad even said something about being afraid of his salvation all the way until he made it to paradise, as allah could allow someone in and then just send them to hell merely to lead them to believe theyre safe before destroying them. Its as if the god of Islam enjoys destroying the unbeliever : /

Jesus quoted the OT by saying God desires mercy and not sacrifice, but Muhammad seemed to have no idea that verse existed when he commanded Muslims to fight.