WORKS SALVATION

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Rosemaryx

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
#121
May 3, 2017
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#121
Rosemaryx said:
Hi...Just come across reading in Thessalonians 2:1...Is Paul talking about people who do believe in verse 8 as well as those who do not...Only people who believe would know to obey the gospel, so is he talking about they new it but turned away from it, if so, then am i understanding correctly that God will destroy them in the final day even though it seems to say that some were saved, am confused now :confused:...xox...
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[FONT=&quot]3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.[/FONT]
 
Desertsrose

Desertsrose

Senior Member
#122
Oct 24, 2016
2,824
207
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#122
Rosemaryx said:
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.
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Hi Rosemary,

The those that will be judged are those who've rejected the truth and walk in disobedience. They are unbelievers.
 
FranC

FranC

Banned
#123
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
#123
Rosemaryx said:
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]3 [/B][/FONT]We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]4 [/B][/FONT]so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]5 [/B][/FONT][I]which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; [/I][/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#000000][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]6 [/B][/FONT]since [I]it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [/I][/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#000000][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]7 [/B][/FONT]and to [I]give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [/I][/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#000000][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]8 [/B][/FONT[B]]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ[/B]. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]9 [/B][/FONT]These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]10 [/B][/FONT][B]when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[[URL="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+1&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-29660a"]a[/URL]] because our testimony among you was believed.[/[/B]FONT][/I][/I][/I]
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"He will be admired among all those who believe..

Because our testimony among you was BELIEVED."

Those who believe will be saved.
Those who do not believe are lost.

P.S.


P.S. Vengeance will be taken on those who do not believe IN GOD
and do not obey the gospel of JESUS.

(I highlighted these verses above)
 
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Rosemaryx

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
#124
May 3, 2017
3,713
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#124
Desertsrose said:
Hi Rosemary,

The those that will be judged are those who've rejected the truth and walk in disobedience. They are unbelievers.
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Hi DR...But are not some who once knew the gospel and then walked away :confused:, you can only know the good news with ears that listen, people who do not believe do not have ears to hear :confused: why would Paul say they and on those who do not obey the gospel, it feels like he was talking about two groups of people...xox...
 
Rosemaryx

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
#125
May 3, 2017
3,713
4,079
113
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#125
Rosemaryx said:
Hi DR...But are not some who once knew the gospel and then walked away :confused:, you can only know the good news with ears that listen, people who do not believe do not have ears to hear :confused: why would Paul say they and on those who do not obey the gospel, it feels like he was talking about two groups of people...xox...
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Oh by the way, i am looking for understanding, been in the Word a lot today, seeing things i never seen before, understanding as well as no understanding :eek:...xox...
 
Desertsrose

Desertsrose

Senior Member
#126
Oct 24, 2016
2,824
207
63
#126
Rosemaryx said:
Hi DR...But are not some who once knew the gospel and then walked away :confused:, you can only know the good news with ears that listen, people who do not believe do not have ears to hear :confused: why would Paul say they and on those who do not obey the gospel, it feels like he was talking about two groups of people...xox...
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Hi Rosemary,

You have such great questions! :) It could be a separation of those who don't know God and those who know God, but don't obey the truth.

Kind of like those in Matthew 7:21-23. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from ME, you who practice lawlessness.'"

I was clumping them all together, but the separation could definitely be specific as you say. The more I read it the more I'm inclined to agree with you. :)
 
P

PHart

Guest
#127
#127
Persuaded said:
NO, that is what the Scriptures teaches.
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Lol, What I'm pointing out to you is your contradictory post.

You said:

"Any person who can willfully sin or walk away from God and never feel God's chastisement was never a son, but a bastard.
...
As far as Calvinist, they are Heretics."​


Calvinists are the ones who believe that if you fall away from God you were never really saved to begin with. You use that Calvinist argument, but then you turn right around and say Calvinists are Heretics.


Persuaded said:
Do you really believe a child of God could walk away and God just ignore him?
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Only after that child repeatedly refuses to come back to faith in Christ.
 
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BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#128
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
4,334
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#128
PHart said:
Lol, What I'm pointing out to you is your contradictory post.

You said:
"Any person who can willfully sin or walk away from God and never feel God's chastisement was never a son, but a bastard.
...
As far as Calvinist, they are Heretics."​


Calvinists are the ones who believe that if you fall away from God you were never really saved to begin with. You use that Calvinist argument, but then you turn right around and say Calvinists are Heretics.



Only after that child repeatedly refuses to come back to faith in Christ.
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Hi PHart,

What do you mean by "repeatedly refuses to come back to faith in Christ"
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#129
Apr 7, 2014
25,043
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#129
GuessWho said:
What makes us worthy of what?
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Salvation. I don't believe that any of us are worthy "in of ourselves" of receiving salvation. Through FAITH, believers are "accounted as worthy" (Luke 20:35) and "accounted as righteous" because we believe in Him/trust in Christ alone for salvation and not in works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9), but apart from the blood of Christ, we are not worthy and righteous "in of ourselves" (Romans 3:23-26).
 
P

PHart

Guest
#130
#130
gb9 said:
so, I guess there was not enough of this in the bdf, so you moved it over to here??
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It's been refreshing to leave the contentious behind in that thread.

And are you going to be able to understand any better in this thread how it is that Peter is not teaching a 'works save gospel' even though he exhorts the people to 'save themselves' in this passage?


"38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” " (Acts 2:38-40 NIV)​


Or how it is that Paul can say women are saved through childbearing and continuing in love and holiness, and yet he not be teaching a 'works save gospel'?


"But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1 Timothy 2:15 NIV)​


When you can understand these passages, then you will know how works are required in salvation without those works earning salvation for that person.
 
P

PHart

Guest
#131
#131
BillG said:
Hi PHart,

What do you mean by "repeatedly refuses to come back to faith in Christ"
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The person who goes back to unbelief refuses all attempts by God to bring them back to trust in Christ's blood. God knows at what moment they are to be sealed in their unbelief and not allowed to come back to repentance.
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#132
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
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#132
PHart said:
The person who goes back to unbelief refuses all attempts by God to bring them back to trust in Christ's blood. God knows at what moment they are to be sealed in their unbelief and not allowed to come back to repentance.
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So in a sense are you saying they reject Jesus as the Son of God who died and rose again for their sin?
 
P

PHart

Guest
#133
#133
BillG said:
So in a sense are you saying they reject Jesus as the Son of God who died and rose again for their sin?
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Yes.

There is no sacrifice to cover that sin. That is the sin that, ultimately, is beyond the grace of God.
 
FranC

FranC

Banned
#134
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
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#134
GuessWho said:


What makes us worthy of what?
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Hi GuessWho,

Mailmandan answered your question about something I had brought up.

Our works cannot make us worthy. God can accomplish anything He wants to all on His own.

Our BELIEF in His Son makes us worthy of salvation.
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#135
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
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#135
PHart said:
Yes.

There is no sacrifice to cover that sin. That is the sin that, ultimately, is beyond the grace of God.
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Sorry to harp on, last one I promise.

So is it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
 
FranC

FranC

Banned
#136
Apr 30, 2016
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#136
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is non-belief.
There is only one unpardonable sin---the sin of unbelief.
Every other sin can be forgiven.
How can unbelief be forgiven?
It cannot.

This is why eternal security (OSAS) cannot be a correct doctrine.

If UNBELIEF is not pardonable, then it doesn't matter at WHAT POINT the unbelief occurs.

It Always is before salvation when one does not believe in Jesus.
And it can be AFTER salvation, when one loses faith in Jesus and no longer follows or believes in Him.

Belief.....................Salvation
No Belief................No Salvation

The bible is clear that persons can fall away.
Paul exhorted us to ENDURE and not to FALL AWAY.
What about Hebrews 6:4-6
and 2 Peter 2:20-21

What about Mathew 13:21
Jesus says that the hearing and belief is only temporary and then the person falls away.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#137
#137
PHart said:
The person who goes back to unbelief refuses all attempts by God to bring them back to trust in Christ's blood. God knows at what moment they are to be sealed in their unbelief and not allowed to come back to repentance.
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this process hardens their heart, no?

THEY turn from HIM
and become reprobate

and are given over to delusion correct?

as a result of their own actions

and trampling on the blood of Christ
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#138
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
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113
#138
FranC said:
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is non-belief.
There is only one unpardonable sin---the sin of unbelief.
Every other sin can be forgiven.
How can unbelief be forgiven?
It cannot.

This is why eternal security (OSAS) cannot be a correct doctrine.

If UNBELIEF is not pardonable, then it doesn't matter at WHAT POINT the unbelief occurs.

It Always is before salvation when one does not believe in Jesus.
And it can be AFTER salvation, when one loses faith in Jesus and no longer follows or believes in Him.

Belief.....................Salvation
No Belief................No Salvation

The bible is clear that persons can fall away.
Paul exhorted us to ENDURE and not to FALL AWAY.
What about Hebrews 6:4-6
and 2 Peter 2:20-21

What about Mathew 13:21
Jesus says that the hearing and belief is only temporary and then the person falls away.
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Putting aside OSAS what I am trying to get at if Mr PHart is saying that it is unbelief in the claims of Jesus and him rising again and confessing him as Lord & Saviour.

Regardless of when one thinks this can happen.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#139
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#139
BillG said:
Hi PHart,

What do you mean by "repeatedly refuses to come back to faith in Christ"
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It means the person has refused to save themselves by "coming back to faith in Christ". Thank God this roller coaster of losing/regaining salvation isn't even remotely true.

Apparently if they come back then they will save themselves or Christ will save them again. I suppose they can renew themselves to repentance, no biggie, instead of seeing this as impossible and instead going on to maturity in their faith. :confused:

In contrast it points to the one saying it, that they are in fact saving themselves, and aren't like others who do not do this.
 
P

PHart

Guest
#140
#140
BillG said:
Sorry to harp on, last one I promise.

So is it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
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Yep.
That is exactly what it is.

The grace of God does not cover blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is an unforgivable sin, because there is no sacrifice given by God to cover the sin of rejecting the one and only sacrifice for sin.
 
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