When (timewise) are we judged?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
3,468
113
#21
What do you think? In the here and now? Immediately upon death? After we are resurrected from the grave? Sometime in between? Never?
The book of Revelation says the final judgement happens at the end.. So it does not happen until then..

Revelation 20: KJV
11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So i cannot see why people would think we get judged at the moment of our deaths..
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#22
Where is air in time? Is there a temporalness to it? Because if we breath in air, we breath it out again. Might use a few molecules of what was in the air, but it's still air going in and out. And what we take out of it, (oxygen), is reinserted into it by plants, and what they take out of it, (carbon dioxide), we put back in, thus it is in a constant state of being. I think outside of time is something like that.

And, I think most people think there is temporalness even in heaven, because who can fully, or even partially, grasp nontemporal as temporal beings? I don't get what it looks like or will be at all, except since God always was, without ever having a beginning, then why would we not be in a similar state of being as he is? So, yeah, I do get it is an odd theory. Anything we propose is just a theory, but otherwise, how many Judgement Days will they be? As it stands now, there would have to be at least 10 billion of them to accommodate every single human being when we die.


1. Since time is non-spatial, it would seem there really is no such place as "outside of time".

As a theoretical, we can use the term "outside of time", but we really don't have any way to define it, explain it, or even suggest what it might mean... I'm not sure it means anything at all, and I'm not sure it's logically possible for such a thing to exist.



2. After God created time, it would seem that God is indeed in time, as we are.

God would be "in" time because there is no "outside of time" to reside in... time is non-spatial.
Time is the existence of temporal becoming - change and motion creating a "before" and "after"', not something that has spatial dimensions.

In the Bible, we see God using tenses of time: he talks about before and after, he speaks of things he did in the past, and things he will do in the future.
This means God is experiencing the temporal realm he created.
Just the fact that God is ACTING requires him to be acting in time... as there is no way for action to occur without time, because action itself generates a "before" and "after", and thus time.

So God would seem to be currently "in" time, but not burdened by it as we are.
- The future isn't mysterious or scary to him because he knows the future.
- He is never "out of control" as he would have all power to change the future as he sees fit.
- He doesn't age, or grow weary, or suffer any negative effects of time... he is an eternal being.



I believe all the ideas I'm explaining are both Biblically and philosophically sound,
and would be considered within orthodox theological views,
but I may be explaining them poorly.
 
Last edited:

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#23
Note:

For God to be "in time" does not mean he is in some way limited, or hindered.

Rather, it means he has created a non-spatial dimension which allows him to act, and to show his power.



Time is a dimension of action, not a dimension that in some way limits God.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
113
#24
Note:

For God to be "in time" does not mean he is in some way limited, or hindered.

Rather, it means he has created a non-spatial dimension which allows him to act, and to show his power.



Time is a dimension of action, not a dimension that in some way limits God.
yes, God is both immanent and transcendent.

to sum it up. lol
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#25
Most of the things you say usually seem confused and kind of a vague "two-speak." But doesn't this post of yours, above, say "there is no time" and "Without time..."?

I find it hard to see that saying anything other than, "There is no time." And that sounds very much like "Time doesn't exist with God."
No. It says there will be no time when this is over. We're in time now.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#26
Note:

For God to be "in time" does not mean he is in some way limited, or hindered.

Rather, it means he has created a non-spatial dimension which allows him to act, and to show his power.



Time is a dimension of action, not a dimension that in some way limits God.
If he created a non-spacial dimension then where was he before he created it? And was he unable to act without that dimension, which gets back to him acting to act. I get space and time are connected, but God always was. (Pretty funny that the only way to say this is to hint at time and space anyway, btw. So I do get this is the world's biggest confusing conversation, since we are spacial and time beings.)

Do you think time and space always were? Or do you think God created them? Neither answer is right or wrong. We really can't put ourselves out of time and space because this is what we were born into for purpose. This is what we know. And since everything God has ever told Man was referencing what we know, he really couldn't put it any other way than in terms of time and space. (Getting back to is Judgement Day just one day?)

Two men saw God in full glory -- sort of. Moses and Paul. Both described the same thing. God's feet on something blue. They called the blue thingy some kind of gem. BUT do you really think God was standing on a blue gem with real feet, or that they were describing the describable in the best way they could? They weren't lying. They weren't embellishing, but I don't think God's standing on blue gem.

Where God is is apart from our full understanding. I keep getting stuck on worshiping him forever. If I'm worshiping God face-to-face, I'm only in one of two positions -- flat on my face or standing arms raised. My nose hurts or my legs are killing me if I'm doing that forever and ever. Aka eternally. And yet, somehow that's going to be exactly what I want to do -- have been designed to do. Something has to give. I gave up space and time to get the good stuff. God!

Nope. Not scientific or philosophical. That's okay. I'm neither anyway. What I am is practical.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#27
If he created a non-spacial dimension then where was he before he created it? And was he unable to act without that dimension, which gets back to him acting to act. I get space and time are connected, but God always was. (Pretty funny that the only way to say this is to hint at time and space anyway, btw. So I do get this is the world's biggest confusing conversation, since we are spacial and time beings.)

Do you think time and space always were? Or do you think God created them? Neither answer is right or wrong. We really can't put ourselves out of time and space because this is what we were born into for purpose. This is what we know. And since everything God has ever told Man was referencing what we know, he really couldn't put it any other way than in terms of time and space. (Getting back to is Judgement Day just one day?)

Two men saw God in full glory -- sort of. Moses and Paul. Both described the same thing. God's feet on something blue. They called the blue thingy some kind of gem. BUT do you really think God was standing on a blue gem with real feet, or that they were describing the describable in the best way they could? They weren't lying. They weren't embellishing, but I don't think God's standing on blue gem.

Where God is is apart from our full understanding. I keep getting stuck on worshiping him forever. If I'm worshiping God face-to-face, I'm only in one of two positions -- flat on my face or standing arms raised. My nose hurts or my legs are killing me if I'm doing that forever and ever. Aka eternally. And yet, somehow that's going to be exactly what I want to do -- have been designed to do. Something has to give. I gave up space and time to get the good stuff. God!

Nope. Not scientific or philosophical. That's okay. I'm neither anyway. What I am is practical.


1. "I do get this is the world's biggest confusing conversation"

Yeah.
We need to really keep this in mind the whole time we talk about it, lol.




2. "If he created a non-spacial dimension then where was he before he created it?"

Let's rephrase the question for clarity: "If God created time, where was he before he created time?"


A. First of all, the question should be "when" was he before he created time, lol.
:)

B. The answer to "when was God before he created time", would be that he was eternal... he was always existing in a timeless state before there was time.




3."And was he unable to act without that dimension?"

It would seem that, to the best of our understanding, God did not "act" before he created time...
as the act of acting is actually to GENERATE time, by creating the tensed facts of "before" and "after".



I realize this is all weird, but philosophically this is how it appears to work out,
and this is considered an orthodox view of God's existence in eternity past.

* Please consider that if God did not "act" before he created time, this in no way limited or constrained God. God has always had all power, and all authority, to act or not act, or do whatever he pleases. Whatever he did, or did not do, in eternity past, was at his own choosing.




4. "Do you think time and space always were? Or do you think God created them?"

I think this is a GRAVELY SERIOUS theological question.
Yes, I believe God created time and space, and there are several reasons.



A. Genesis 1:1 seems to show God creating both time and space, and other scriptures seem to support this.


B. God, as the only entity which has "necessary being" would, by necessity, have to create everything else.

God is the ONLY entity (the only person, thing, or object) which is self existent.
God is a "necessary being"... he created ALL things, and by him ALL things consist.
His existence is both eternal, and necessary - as without his existence there would be, and could be, nothing else.


C. God, if defined as the only "necessary being" would negate the ABILITY of anything else to have existence before him, or parallel to him... which he did not create.

Simply put, it's impossible for anything else ( like time and space) to have existed BEFORE God, or ALONGSIDE God, which he did not create.

If anything else could co-exist with God, then those things would be eternal, and would also have "necessary being"... they would be equal with God. This is contrary to both scripture and to philosophical logic.


D. Time and space are NOT NECESSARY for the existence of a timeless, spaceless being... so there is absolutely NO NEED for them to have always existed.

If you're God, and you are timeless and spaceless... you have no need of time and space.
You would create time and space "if" and "when" you feel some need to do so... like perhaps needing them as a container in which humans can exist, and in which you can interact with them.



5. "I keep getting stuck on worshiping him forever. If I'm worshiping God face-to-face, I'm only in one of two positions -- flat on my face or standing arms raised. ...I'm doing that forever and ever."

I think this is just a matter of what you expect, or what you picture in your own mind...we all do this.

This really has little to do with:
A. Real issues of time and space.
B. ALL the ways we can worship God, and all the ways God may define worship
C. ALL the things God has planned for us in eternity.





Final Thought:
Again, I believe the above explanations are all considered orthodox views, though I may be explaining them poorly.









 
Last edited:
Feb 5, 2017
1,118
36
0
#28
In the lower dimension most of us exist in 'most of the time', the state of ordinary human awareness, time exists. But in spirit, the point of existence, is detached from time as it is the body.

But it is not so much that, you suddenly go in slow motion, or an hour passes and it feels like a minute or half a day.

It is not that everything changes speed at the same time.

It is more a case of, things that 'take time', can 'take no time'. You pray to God for something, and it appears in 'God speed'.

How else was it that Jesus healed people in the blink of an eye? Healing from an ordinary human perspective 'takes time'. However if my theory is correct, nearly everyone, if they think about it, has experienced something that happened 'outside of time', things such as coincidence (2 angles meet perfectly, aligned to spirit).

Time is a bit like the human condition that says, money is important, it is essential. Something of the world which we are enslaved to. A bit like time. And yet we can still move mountains without it.

And likewise, how many times do we think 'I don't have time for this' and so it is. It is really a statement of submission to something which then bounds us to these terms. What is the 'having time' element? Such language logic is odd if you look at it closely. Where did it come from?

It is almost as if some things exist, before they exist, or things don't exist, after we believe they exist. Something about reality is incomprehensible, if you look at it closely, and all the things we take for granted in our perception, logic, and language.

God exists outside of ordinary human awareness, and yet at the same time exists within it.
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
218
63
#29
At the Great White Throne Judgement for the unsaved. And the Judgement Seat of Messiah/Christ for the Saved. That is how the unjust get away with so much; they may look like they do not pay a price but like the saying says their sins will catch up with them. I do think those that G-d loves He somewhat gets us now too, the Scripture says that G-d chastens those He loves. So I think and know G-d loves me a lot...;)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#30
1. "I do get this is the world's biggest confusing conversation"

Yeah.
We need to really keep this in mind the whole time we talk about it, lol.




2. "If he created a non-spacial dimension then where was he before he created it?"

Let's rephrase the question for clarity: "If God created time, where was he before he created time?"


A. First of all, the question should be "when" was he before he created time, lol.
:)

B. The answer to "when was God before he created time", would be that he was eternal... he was always existing in a timeless state before there was time.




3."And was he unable to act without that dimension?"

It would seem that, to the best of our understanding, God did not "act" before he created time...
as the act of acting is actually to GENERATE time, by creating the tensed facts of "before" and "after".



I realize this is all weird, but philosophically this is how it appears to work out,
and this is considered an orthodox view of God's existence in eternity past.

* Please consider that if God did not "act" before he created time, this in no way limited or constrained God. God has always had all power, and all authority, to act or not act, or do whatever he pleases. Whatever he did, or did not do, in eternity past, was at his own choosing.




4. "Do you think time and space always were? Or do you think God created them?"

I think this is a GRAVELY SERIOUS theological question.
Yes, I believe God created time and space, and there are several reasons.



A. Genesis 1:1 seems to show God creating both time and space, and other scriptures seem to support this.


B. God, as the only entity which has "necessary being" would, by necessity, have to create everything else.

God is the ONLY entity (the only person, thing, or object) which is self existent.
God is a "necessary being"... he created ALL things, and by him ALL things consist.
His existence is both eternal, and necessary - as without his existence there would be, and could be, nothing else.


C. God, if defined as the only "necessary being" would negate the ABILITY of anything else to have existence before him, or parallel to him... which he did not create.

Simply put, it's impossible for anything else ( like time and space) to have existed BEFORE God, or ALONGSIDE God, which he did not create.

If anything else could co-exist with God, then those things would be eternal, and would also have "necessary being"... they would be equal with God. This is contrary to both scripture and to philosophical logic.


D. Time and space are NOT NECESSARY for the existence of a timeless, spaceless being... so there is absolutely NO NEED for them to have always existed.

If you're God, and you are timeless and spaceless... you have no need of time and space.
You would create time and space "if" and "when" you feel some need to do so... like perhaps needing them as a container in which humans can exist, and in which you can interact with them.



5. "I keep getting stuck on worshiping him forever. If I'm worshiping God face-to-face, I'm only in one of two positions -- flat on my face or standing arms raised. ...I'm doing that forever and ever."

I think this is just a matter of what you expect, or what you picture in your own mind...we all do this.

This really has little to do with:
A. Real issues of time and space.
B. ALL the ways we can worship God, and all the ways God may define worship
C. ALL the things God has planned for us in eternity.





Final Thought:
Again, I believe the above explanations are all considered orthodox views, though I may be explaining them poorly.
If'n you're ever looking for a new job, I think I know what you would be good at. Critiquing writing -- particularly fiction. Not that what you are saying is fiction. I think you understand this conversation like a college/university level of understanding, and you're trying to explain it to me at my third grade level.

What you're good at is Big Picture critiquing. You see the whole story. I see the scene. If you ever want to change your job, you could become a Big Picture Editor for story writers, because you'd see why P couldn't happen on the timeline, because C and G happened already. (Picture story line going from A to Z to get what I'm talking about when I pick out letters.)

I'm still, at best, not getting what you're saying, but I have gotten to the point of thinking I missed something important to my guess/theory. I'm also getting I mixing up time and space, although truthfully, I think they're related somehow too.

Most important to get is I like where this went. Neither of us were scolding each other yet bringing forth what we think on an elusive subject. Good to see that in fellowship with the bros.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#32
If'n you're ever looking for a new job, I think I know what you would be good at. Critiquing writing -- particularly fiction. Not that what you are saying is fiction. I think you understand this conversation like a college/university level of understanding, and you're trying to explain it to me at my third grade level.

What you're good at is Big Picture critiquing. You see the whole story. I see the scene. If you ever want to change your job, you could become a Big Picture Editor for story writers, because you'd see why P couldn't happen on the timeline, because C and G happened already. (Picture story line going from A to Z to get what I'm talking about when I pick out letters.)

I'm still, at best, not getting what you're saying, but I have gotten to the point of thinking I missed something important to my guess/theory. I'm also getting I mixing up time and space, although truthfully, I think they're related somehow too.

Most important to get is I like where this went. Neither of us were scolding each other yet bringing forth what we think on an elusive subject. Good to see that in fellowship with the bros.



1. "... and you're trying to explain it to me at my third grade level."

I appreciating your self-effacing humor -
and nobody thinks you're working at a 3rd grade level, lol.

: )



2.
"I'm still, at best, not getting what you're saying, but I have gotten to the point of thinking I missed something important to my guess/theory."

A. This stuff is inherently confusing, and it's also something we just don't talk about much.
There's nothing wrong with having some confusion about a confusing topic... that's pretty normal.

It took the early church fathers hundreds of years to sort out the dual nature of Christ,
and it still remains confusing and paradoxical. There are things done by an infinite God which are just beyond us. We can grasp them... but only to a degree.


B. If I explain something and you don't understand it, then I probably did a poor job of explaining it.

It's always incumbent on the speaker to be understood.
So if you didn't understand me, that would be my fault and not yours.



3.
"Most important... I like where this went. Neither of us were scolding each other yet bringing forth what we think on an elusive subject. Good to see that in fellowship..."

I agree.

It's nice to have a polite chat.
And we don't have to agree on everything to get along.




 
Aug 2, 2009
24,574
4,262
113
#33
Between 12 noon and 5pm.... but never on Sundays! :rolleyes:

 
Dec 9, 2011
13,703
1,715
113
#35
Time for man Is not the same as time for GOD but It Is appointed for man to die once and then the judgement so I would think It would be immediately after death.