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Thread: Forest for the trees?

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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Forest for the trees?

    This may not impress you the same way it hit me. But, I thought you might want to give it a look anyway.

    Alexander Schmemann has beautifully drawn attention to the nature of worship as the Church’s weekly ascension to heaven (cf. Ex. 24:9-11; 34:1-8, 29-35; Mark 9:1-29): “The early Christians realized that in order to become the temple of the Holy Spirit they must ascend to heaven where Christ has ascended.

    They realized also that this ascension was the very condition of their mission in the world, of their ministry to the world. For there — in heaven — they were immersed in the new life of the Kingdom; and when, after this ‘liturgy of ascension,’ they returned into the world, their faces reflected the light, the ‘joy and peace’ of that Kingdom and they were truly its witnesses. They brought no programs and no theories; but wherever they went, the seeds of the Kingdom sprouted, faith was kindled, life was transfigured, things impossible were made possible. They were witnesses, and when they were asked, ‘Whence shines this light, where is the source of its power?’ they knew what to answer and where to lead men.

    In church today, we so often find we meet only the same old world, not Christ and His Kingdom. We do not realize that we never get anywhere because we never leave any place behind us.”

    Alexander Schmemann, For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy (New York: St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, revised cd., 1973), p. 28.
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    This is what the Mass aspires to do.

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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGirl View Post
    This is what the Mass aspires to do.
    Maybe one of the few things the Catholics came close to getting right.
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    Maybe one of the few things the Catholics came close to getting right.
    Right.
    You can find a CC everywhere. You know what you're going to get. No picking pastors thru a committee.
    Communion every week, I find no problem with most sermons...homilies.

    If you want to get involved, you can. Plenty to do.
    And if you don't, that's fine too.

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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGirl View Post
    Right.
    You can find a CC everywhere. You know what you're going to get. No picking pastors thru a committee.
    Communion every week, I find no problem with most sermons...homilies.

    If you want to get involved, you can. Plenty to do.
    And if you don't, that's fine too.
    There are times in our church meetings that I do sense a state of mental transportation, but it doesn't come as often as I would like. I sometimes wonder at that emotional elevation some Catholics speak of experiencing due to the ritualistic setup their services tend to provide.
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    “True eloquence consists of saying all that is necessary, and only that which is .” François Duc De La Rochefoucauld (among others)
    I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus.

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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    There are times in our church meetings that I do sense a state of mental transportation, but it doesn't come as often as I would like. I sometimes wonder at that emotional elevation some Catholics speak of experiencing due to the ritualistic setup their services tend to provide.
    And yet, interestingly when my family attended a more liturgical church during my growing up years the repetition week after week seemed to put people to sleep more than anything... I don't recall anyone feeling "transported" to a more heavenly place during the services.

    Rituals or no rituals, it all begins in the heart. Any kind of church can be uplifting if the congregation is really seeking God.
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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceMan View Post
    And yet, interestingly when my family attended a more liturgical church during my growing up years the repetition week after week seemed to put people to sleep more than anything... I don't recall anyone feeling "transported" to a more heavenly place during the services.

    Rituals or no rituals, it all begins in the heart. Any kind of church can be uplifting if the congregation is really seeking God.
    Yes, I absolutely detest Liturgical services. But, maybe there are people it doesn't put to sleep. I honestly dunno.... but, something seems drastically wrong in what we are all (well, most of us) doing.
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    I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus.

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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Well, like I said I think it has a lot to do with the heart of the congregation. Obviously, we can't keep all our brothers and sisters from living lives if disobedience, however we can disciple and rebuke and encourage those close to us in the Body. If everyone did that, perhaps our churches would be healthier overall and the services would end up becoming more "heavenly".

    Just my two cents, but two cents doesn't buy much.
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    Yes, I absolutely detest Liturgical services. But, maybe there are people it doesn't put to sleep. I honestly dunno.... but, something seems drastically wrong in what we are all (well, most of us) doing.
    Willie,
    Read a really good book. Short and edifying...
    The Supper of the Lamb
    Scott Hahn

    He's a Catholic theologian that used to be Protestant when he was younger.
    His books are great -- I've read 2 or 3.

    It explains what the Mass is all about.
    He compares it to the New Testament and Revelation.
    The best I've read on Revelation...a book I don't even like and haven't read through one time.

    I think you would like it.

    P.S. It's not about Revelation. It's about the Mass and when you understand what's going on, you appreciate it more.

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    Senior Member Waggles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    In church today, we so often find we meet only the same old world, not Christ and His Kingdom. We do not realize that we never get anywhere because we never leave any place behind us.”
    This is truly one of the great benefits of Pentecostal worship, whereby
    the Spirit-filled disciple in a Spirit-filled church does interact with the heavenly.

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places
    in Christ Jesus:
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens
    with the saints, and of the household of God;
    Ephesians 2:

    1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above,
    where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
    2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
    3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
    Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also
    appear with him in glory.
    Colossians 3:
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    our accession, walk through our lives is our goal after 'conversion', to live with our Heavenly Father
    throughout Eternity - our daily living for Him is our certainty that this is our soul purpose
    and that we know that it will happen through our obedience and Trust and Assurance
    in Him and His promises...

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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    There are times in our church meetings that I do sense a state of mental transportation, but it doesn't come as often as I would like. I sometimes wonder at that emotional elevation some Catholics speak of experiencing due to the ritualistic setup their services tend to provide.
    Forgot to answer this.
    All my friends are catholic.
    I don't hear any of them speaking about this emotional elevation.
    I doubt we're supposed to even aspire to this.
    Faith is like love.
    You know you love your spouse, whether you "feel" like it or not.
    If it happens, great.
    If it doesn't, great. You have something to look forward to!
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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGirl View Post
    Forgot to answer this.
    All my friends are catholic.
    I don't hear any of them speaking about this emotional elevation.
    I doubt we're supposed to even aspire to this.
    Faith is like love.
    You know you love your spouse, whether you "feel" like it or not.
    If it happens, great.
    If it doesn't, great. You have something to look forward to!
    This is only one of the many times David expressed a bit more than just doing his duty by showing up at church. He was often thrilled at just the thought of it.

    Psalm 122King James Version (KJV)
    122:1 — I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the Lord.
    2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
    3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
    4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the Lord.

    I think we are to not only want to FEEL the experience of worshiping, but we are to eagerly anticipate it and FEEL a whole lot.
    Last edited by Willie-T; 1 Week Ago at 01:20 PM.
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    “True eloquence consists of saying all that is necessary, and only that which is .” François Duc De La Rochefoucauld (among others)
    I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus.

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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    This is only one of the many times David expressed a bit more than just doing his duty by showing up at church. He was often thrilled at just the thought of it.

    Psalm 122King James Version (KJV)
    122:1 — I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the Lord.
    2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
    3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
    4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the Lord.

    I think we are to not only want to FEEL the experience of worshiping, but we are to eagerly anticipate it and FEEL a whole lot.
    What if I don't?
    What would that mean according to you?

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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGirl View Post
    What if I don't?
    What would that mean according to you?
    Since the Bible is filled with emotion, and people all through it really "LIVED the moment" in their religion, I would simply ask you why it is that you say you feel nothing? This is not "according to me", but rather what you think is the reason you say you don't feel any of those emotions.
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    “True eloquence consists of saying all that is necessary, and only that which is .” François Duc De La Rochefoucauld (among others)
    I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus.

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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    it means that 'you-don't....hopefully the 'beginning of your story...
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    Since the Bible is filled with emotion, and people all through it really "LIVED the moment" in their religion, I would simply ask you why it is that you say you feel nothing? This is not "according to me", but rather what you think is the reason you say you don't feel any of those emotions.
    You're answering a question with a question.
    I didn't say I don't, or never have, felt these emotions.

    I'm asking you what it means if I don't.


    What if a new Christian is reading along and felt all fired up at the beginning and now feels nothing?
    My point is that feelings are not important.
    What Is important is that we know we !ove God,
    And we know He loves us.

    We walk in knowledge of His love for us...Not in our feelings.

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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldethennew View Post
    it means that 'you-don't....hopefully the 'beginning of your story...
    Are you referring to me?
    If so, I don't understand.

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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGirl View Post
    Are you referring to me?
    If so, I don't understand.
    It means, "you don't." Nothing more, nothing less. Are you expecting strangers on a forum to tell you why you either feel something, or you don't?

    I often ask questions right back, in order to get you to do some self-evaluation, and figure out some things only you can possibly know.
    Last edited by Willie-T; 1 Week Ago at 08:54 PM.
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    “True eloquence consists of saying all that is necessary, and only that which is .” François Duc De La Rochefoucauld (among others)
    I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus.

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    Default Re: Forest for the trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    It means, "you don't." Nothing more, nothing less. Are you expecting strangers on a forum to tell you why you either feel something, or you don't?

    I often ask questions right back, in order to get you to do some self-evaluation, and figure out some things only you can possibly know.
    Still didn't answer my post.
    Why not??

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