Is it OK to lie?
- Thread starter Willie-T
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John 7:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]You go up to this feast. I am not yet[SUP][b][/SUP] going up to this feast, for My time has not yet fully come.”
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Not sure why you posted this verse....Jesus didn't lie he said he wasn't going to the feast because his time had not yet come meaning time for him to be crucified... Next verse said he stayed in Galilee... Wasn't the feast held in Jerusalem?[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He had said these things to them, He remained in Galilee.
[SUB][SUP][/SUP][/SUB][SUB][SUP][/SUP][/SUB][SUB][SUP][/SUP][/SUB]
I know we aren't the same religion, but is that actually how you guys read the Bible?
Read the full story. I knew Demi is a Bible reader and would not have to be told there was a lot more to that story than simply the one verse that I used to direct her there.
I would have expected this kind of silly "hedging" from some others here, but not you.
[FONT="]2 But when the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, 3 Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do. 4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.8 You go to the festival. I am not[b] going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. 11 Now at the festival the Jewish leaders were watching for Jesus and asking, “Where is he?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Among the crowds there was widespread whispering about him. Some said, “He is a good man.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Others replied, “No, he deceives the people.” 13 But no one would say anything publicly about him for fear of the leaders.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.8 You go to the festival. I am not[b] going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. 11 Now at the festival the Jewish leaders were watching for Jesus and asking, “Where is he?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Among the crowds there was widespread whispering about him. Some said, “He is a good man.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Others replied, “No, he deceives the people.” 13 But no one would say anything publicly about him for fear of the leaders.
[/FONT]
This is especially for anyone who has been programed to only read small portions of Bible stories:
Jesus Goes to the Festival of Booths John 7:7ff
7 Jesus later traveled throughout Galilee. He didn’t want to travel in Judea because Jews there wanted to kill him.
2 The time for the Jewish Festival of Booths was near. 3 So Jesus’ brothers told him, “Leave this place, and go to Judea so that your disciples can see the things that you’re doing. 4 No one does things secretly when he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, you should let the world see you.” 5 Even his brothers didn’t believe in him.
6 Jesus told them, “Now is not the right time for me to go. Any time is right for you. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I say that what everyone does is evil. 8 Go to the festival. I’m not going to this festival right now. Now is not the right time for me to go.”
9 After saying this, Jesus stayed in Galilee. 10 But after his brothers had gone to the festival, Jesus went. He didn’t go publicly but secretly.
11 The Jews were looking for Jesus in the crowd at the festival. They kept asking, “Where is that man?” 12 The crowds argued about Jesus. Some people said, “He’s a good man,” while others said, “No he isn’t. He deceives the people.” 13 Yet, no one would talk openly about him because they were afraid of the Jews.
14 When the festival was half over, Jesus went to the temple courtyard and began to teach. 15 The Jews were surprised and asked, “How can this man be so educated when he hasn’t gone to school?”
16 Jesus responded to them, “What I teach doesn’t come from me but from the one who sent me. 17 Those who want to follow the will of God will know if what I teach is from God or if I teach my own thoughts. 18 Those who speak their own thoughts are looking for their own glory. But the man who wants to bring glory to the one who sent him is a true teacher and doesn’t have dishonest motives. 19 Didn’t Moses give you his teachings? Yet, none of you does what Moses taught you. So why do you want to kill me?”
20 The crowd answered, “You’re possessed by a demon! Who wants to kill you?”
21 Jesus answered them, “I performed one miracle, and all of you are surprised by it. 22 Moses gave you the teaching about circumcision (although it didn’t come from Moses but from our ancestors). So you circumcise a male on a day of rest—a holy day. 23 If you circumcise a male on the day of rest—a holy day, to follow Moses’ Teachings, why are you angry with me because I made a man entirely well on the day of rest—a holy day? 24 Stop judging by outward appearance! Instead, judge correctly.”
25 Some of the people who lived in Jerusalem said, “Isn’t this the man they want to kill? 26 But look at this! He’s speaking in public, and no one is saying anything to him! Can it be that the rulers really know that this man is the Messiah? 27 However, we know where this man comes from. When the Christ comes, no one will know where he is from.”
28 Then, while Jesus was teaching in the temple courtyard, he said loudly, “You know me, and you know where I come from. I didn’t decide to come on my own. The one who sent me is true. He’s the one you don’t know. 29 I know him because I am from him and he sent me.”
30 The Jews tried to arrest him but couldn’t because his time had not yet come.
31 However, many people in the crowd believed in him. They asked, “When the Messiah comes, will he perform more miracles than this man has?”
32 The Pharisees heard the crowd saying things like this about him. So the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple guards to arrest Jesus.
33 Jesus said, “I will still be with you for a little while. Then I’ll go to the one who sent me. 34 You will look for me, but you won’t find me. You can’t go where I’m going.”
35 The Jews said among themselves, “Where does this man intend to go so that we won’t find him? Does he mean that he’ll live with the Jews who are scattered among the Greeks and that he’ll teach the Greeks? 36 What does he mean when he says, ‘You will look for me, but you won’t find me,’ and ‘You can’t go where I’m going’?”
37 On the last and most important day of the festival, Jesus was standing in the temple courtyard. He said loudly, “Whoever is thirsty must come to me to drink. 38 As Scripture says, ‘Streams of living water will flow from deep within the person who believes in me.’” 39 Jesus said this about the Spirit, whom his believers would receive. The Spirit was not yet evident, as it would be after Jesus had been glorified.
40 After some of the crowd heard Jesus say these words, they said, “This man is certainly the prophet.” 41 Other people said, “This man is the Messiah.” Still other people asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? 42 Doesn’t Scripture say that the Messiah will come from the descendants of David and from the village of Bethlehem, where David lived?” 43 So the people were divided because of Jesus. 44 Some of them wanted to arrest him, but they couldn’t.
45 When the temple guards returned, the chief priests and Pharisees asked them, “Why didn’t you bring Jesus?”
46 The temple guards answered, “No human has ever spoken like this man.”
47 The Pharisees asked the temple guards, “Have you been deceived too? 48 Has any ruler or any Pharisee believed in him? 49 This crowd is cursed because it doesn’t know Moses’ Teachings.”
50 One of those Pharisees was Nicodemus, who had previously visited Jesus. Nicodemus asked them, 51 “Do Moses’ Teachings enable us to judge a person without first hearing that person’s side of the story? We can’t judge a person without finding out what that person has done.”
52 They asked Nicodemus, “Are you saying this because you’re from Galilee? Study the Scriptures, and you’ll see that no prophet comes from Galilee.”[a]
53 Then each of them went home.
Jesus Goes to the Festival of Booths John 7:7ff
7 Jesus later traveled throughout Galilee. He didn’t want to travel in Judea because Jews there wanted to kill him.
2 The time for the Jewish Festival of Booths was near. 3 So Jesus’ brothers told him, “Leave this place, and go to Judea so that your disciples can see the things that you’re doing. 4 No one does things secretly when he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, you should let the world see you.” 5 Even his brothers didn’t believe in him.
6 Jesus told them, “Now is not the right time for me to go. Any time is right for you. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I say that what everyone does is evil. 8 Go to the festival. I’m not going to this festival right now. Now is not the right time for me to go.”
9 After saying this, Jesus stayed in Galilee. 10 But after his brothers had gone to the festival, Jesus went. He didn’t go publicly but secretly.
11 The Jews were looking for Jesus in the crowd at the festival. They kept asking, “Where is that man?” 12 The crowds argued about Jesus. Some people said, “He’s a good man,” while others said, “No he isn’t. He deceives the people.” 13 Yet, no one would talk openly about him because they were afraid of the Jews.
14 When the festival was half over, Jesus went to the temple courtyard and began to teach. 15 The Jews were surprised and asked, “How can this man be so educated when he hasn’t gone to school?”
16 Jesus responded to them, “What I teach doesn’t come from me but from the one who sent me. 17 Those who want to follow the will of God will know if what I teach is from God or if I teach my own thoughts. 18 Those who speak their own thoughts are looking for their own glory. But the man who wants to bring glory to the one who sent him is a true teacher and doesn’t have dishonest motives. 19 Didn’t Moses give you his teachings? Yet, none of you does what Moses taught you. So why do you want to kill me?”
20 The crowd answered, “You’re possessed by a demon! Who wants to kill you?”
21 Jesus answered them, “I performed one miracle, and all of you are surprised by it. 22 Moses gave you the teaching about circumcision (although it didn’t come from Moses but from our ancestors). So you circumcise a male on a day of rest—a holy day. 23 If you circumcise a male on the day of rest—a holy day, to follow Moses’ Teachings, why are you angry with me because I made a man entirely well on the day of rest—a holy day? 24 Stop judging by outward appearance! Instead, judge correctly.”
25 Some of the people who lived in Jerusalem said, “Isn’t this the man they want to kill? 26 But look at this! He’s speaking in public, and no one is saying anything to him! Can it be that the rulers really know that this man is the Messiah? 27 However, we know where this man comes from. When the Christ comes, no one will know where he is from.”
28 Then, while Jesus was teaching in the temple courtyard, he said loudly, “You know me, and you know where I come from. I didn’t decide to come on my own. The one who sent me is true. He’s the one you don’t know. 29 I know him because I am from him and he sent me.”
30 The Jews tried to arrest him but couldn’t because his time had not yet come.
31 However, many people in the crowd believed in him. They asked, “When the Messiah comes, will he perform more miracles than this man has?”
32 The Pharisees heard the crowd saying things like this about him. So the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple guards to arrest Jesus.
33 Jesus said, “I will still be with you for a little while. Then I’ll go to the one who sent me. 34 You will look for me, but you won’t find me. You can’t go where I’m going.”
35 The Jews said among themselves, “Where does this man intend to go so that we won’t find him? Does he mean that he’ll live with the Jews who are scattered among the Greeks and that he’ll teach the Greeks? 36 What does he mean when he says, ‘You will look for me, but you won’t find me,’ and ‘You can’t go where I’m going’?”
37 On the last and most important day of the festival, Jesus was standing in the temple courtyard. He said loudly, “Whoever is thirsty must come to me to drink. 38 As Scripture says, ‘Streams of living water will flow from deep within the person who believes in me.’” 39 Jesus said this about the Spirit, whom his believers would receive. The Spirit was not yet evident, as it would be after Jesus had been glorified.
40 After some of the crowd heard Jesus say these words, they said, “This man is certainly the prophet.” 41 Other people said, “This man is the Messiah.” Still other people asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? 42 Doesn’t Scripture say that the Messiah will come from the descendants of David and from the village of Bethlehem, where David lived?” 43 So the people were divided because of Jesus. 44 Some of them wanted to arrest him, but they couldn’t.
45 When the temple guards returned, the chief priests and Pharisees asked them, “Why didn’t you bring Jesus?”
46 The temple guards answered, “No human has ever spoken like this man.”
47 The Pharisees asked the temple guards, “Have you been deceived too? 48 Has any ruler or any Pharisee believed in him? 49 This crowd is cursed because it doesn’t know Moses’ Teachings.”
50 One of those Pharisees was Nicodemus, who had previously visited Jesus. Nicodemus asked them, 51 “Do Moses’ Teachings enable us to judge a person without first hearing that person’s side of the story? We can’t judge a person without finding out what that person has done.”
52 They asked Nicodemus, “Are you saying this because you’re from Galilee? Study the Scriptures, and you’ll see that no prophet comes from Galilee.”[a]
53 Then each of them went home.
I knew you would. You are, admittedly seeming to get a little dogmatic, but you are a bright girl.
The many instances in the Bible of people telling flat-out lies to people are there (I think) to show us that God's overall desire is far more important than mistakenly following what we think is a commandment to state only facts even if our words endanger God's kingdom or put others in danger.
The many instances in the Bible of people telling flat-out lies to people are there (I think) to show us that God's overall desire is far more important than mistakenly following what we think is a commandment to state only facts even if our words endanger God's kingdom or put others in danger.
often a lie or deception starts with the one asking a question
and already knowing the answer, thus they are tempting another
by putting them in an awkward situation...hopefully the one being
asked has enough respect for their Saviour to always tell the truth,
as we have to answer to Him for every world that proceeds out of our mouth'...
and already knowing the answer, thus they are tempting another
by putting them in an awkward situation...hopefully the one being
asked has enough respect for their Saviour to always tell the truth,
as we have to answer to Him for every world that proceeds out of our mouth'...
well but fact is.. we all in some way are dogmatic about something and i get more trouble here for the things that i am not dogmatic about LOL
Just remember if i ever ask u anything..just be blunt. i dont like sneak lies.. i know we all have done it and do it at times but i try to avoid it even if ppl dont like the answers then..like hey u is fat. if folks dont wanna hear it then dont ask about it lol
Just remember if i ever ask u anything..just be blunt. i dont like sneak lies.. i know we all have done it and do it at times but i try to avoid it even if ppl dont like the answers then..like hey u is fat. if folks dont wanna hear it then dont ask about it lol
D
Are those little lies really nothing? Or just "nothing compared to?"
Because you did call your own family members liars, which shows you don't respect them for their truth-telling abilities. I don't want to be told little lies or big lies, therefore I do not tell little lies or big lies.
And, do understand this. Willie really is trying to convince people some lies are good, whereas the Bible calls bearing false witness sin. Actually the word is "abomination." Willie is trying to teach situational ethics. God's word gives real ethics. This isn't slippery slope. It's off the cliff!
Have I ever lied? Ha! Let me introduce myself. I was one of the best liars ever! Not only could I tell you a whopper, I had the whole story played out in my brain, and rehearsed enough, that if you asked me for more details, I could give them without having to scurry to make them up. AND, if you asked me about it two years later, it would still sound real.
Funny thing. I even had a good Christian-like excuse for it. I lived in the boonies, had no car, but had to work and go places, so I hitchhiked. And the lies were set, so the driver would be too scared to assault me. It caused no harm for the driver to think he just picked up an armed robber going to the parole office, did it? (Not all that information came out at once. If I did that, it would sound like a lie.)
But then the Lord taught me to stop it! And he got through to me in the hardest possible way. (Some guys liked me because of my story, and thought they could convince me to do something I did not want to do because of it. Big trouble that night.)
It is NOT enough to be surface-level-Christian. The Lord wants all of us! Not only do I not lie anymore, I'm as honest as I can be. It works better! (Probably because it's the Lord's way to live.) Easier to remember too.
[h=1]Proverbs 6:16-19[/h][FONT="][FONT="]16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Because you did call your own family members liars, which shows you don't respect them for their truth-telling abilities. I don't want to be told little lies or big lies, therefore I do not tell little lies or big lies.
And, do understand this. Willie really is trying to convince people some lies are good, whereas the Bible calls bearing false witness sin. Actually the word is "abomination." Willie is trying to teach situational ethics. God's word gives real ethics. This isn't slippery slope. It's off the cliff!
Have I ever lied? Ha! Let me introduce myself. I was one of the best liars ever! Not only could I tell you a whopper, I had the whole story played out in my brain, and rehearsed enough, that if you asked me for more details, I could give them without having to scurry to make them up. AND, if you asked me about it two years later, it would still sound real.
Funny thing. I even had a good Christian-like excuse for it. I lived in the boonies, had no car, but had to work and go places, so I hitchhiked. And the lies were set, so the driver would be too scared to assault me. It caused no harm for the driver to think he just picked up an armed robber going to the parole office, did it? (Not all that information came out at once. If I did that, it would sound like a lie.)
But then the Lord taught me to stop it! And he got through to me in the hardest possible way. (Some guys liked me because of my story, and thought they could convince me to do something I did not want to do because of it. Big trouble that night.)
It is NOT enough to be surface-level-Christian. The Lord wants all of us! Not only do I not lie anymore, I'm as honest as I can be. It works better! (Probably because it's the Lord's way to live.) Easier to remember too.
[h=1]Proverbs 6:16-19[/h][FONT="][FONT="]16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Only because i can understand his point of view, doesnt mean i will agree with it. In fact my mind about lying hasn't changed. And I am a bit dogmatic in some ways but i really dont think that when it comes to lying that I am.
Truth hurts but being lied to is worse, even if its not meant in a bad way.
In my opinion if i ask somebody (again the fat comment) if i look fat and they are ready to lie to me about something small like that, they will be willing to lie about bigger more important things.
I dont see sn excuse for lying about anything.
He cant indoctrinate me. I have my mind set on that topic. Its just interesting to see others views
Truth hurts but being lied to is worse, even if its not meant in a bad way.
In my opinion if i ask somebody (again the fat comment) if i look fat and they are ready to lie to me about something small like that, they will be willing to lie about bigger more important things.
I dont see sn excuse for lying about anything.
He cant indoctrinate me. I have my mind set on that topic. Its just interesting to see others views
I think she is quite a bit smarter than you are, Lynn.
She knows I have never told her, or anyone, what to believe. (That is just for Protestant Popes) She also knows that my one encouragement to teens is to go directly to the Bible and see if what they are being told (by people like you) they are to believe, is REALLY what the Bible says.
In this case, we adults have all been raised to "know" that the 9th Commandment says: "Thou shalt not lie!" But, does it say that? Does it? None of us can know unless we go read EVERY WORD of it, for ourselves.
It turns out that is not what it says.
And as the many Biblical examples that I have posted demonstrate, it isn't even what it means...... since numerous people approved by God actually did tell straight-up lies in the Bible, and many others did so by subterfuge and deception.
Demi and the other people who are most important to me here, the younger people, know that my primary objective is to help them make sure they don't have to struggle through the same tangled weeds many of us have had to cut ourselves free from.
And beginning by understanding that we have been sold a bunch of mistaken things as pure fact is most easily done in this case, by showing this Commandment for what it was originally intended to be.......... an understanding of how we are to treat others fairly.
She knows I have never told her, or anyone, what to believe. (That is just for Protestant Popes) She also knows that my one encouragement to teens is to go directly to the Bible and see if what they are being told (by people like you) they are to believe, is REALLY what the Bible says.
In this case, we adults have all been raised to "know" that the 9th Commandment says: "Thou shalt not lie!" But, does it say that? Does it? None of us can know unless we go read EVERY WORD of it, for ourselves.
It turns out that is not what it says.
And as the many Biblical examples that I have posted demonstrate, it isn't even what it means...... since numerous people approved by God actually did tell straight-up lies in the Bible, and many others did so by subterfuge and deception.
Demi and the other people who are most important to me here, the younger people, know that my primary objective is to help them make sure they don't have to struggle through the same tangled weeds many of us have had to cut ourselves free from.
And beginning by understanding that we have been sold a bunch of mistaken things as pure fact is most easily done in this case, by showing this Commandment for what it was originally intended to be.......... an understanding of how we are to treat others fairly.
Willie,
you are 'closer' on the 9th Commandment - it's more about 'swearing falsely, bearing false witness,
such as in a 'court case'.
Rehab told a 'lie' in order to 'save lives', the 'lie' was still a 'sin', but it's up to Jesus to Judge
the 'motive' - if we 'lie' to save a life, that is totally different than telling a lie to 'hurt someone',
or make any kind of 'gain' emotionally-financially-self gain, this is a very different category -
there are the weightier matters' of the Law, and there are the 'least and greatest Commandments'...
you are 'closer' on the 9th Commandment - it's more about 'swearing falsely, bearing false witness,
such as in a 'court case'.
Rehab told a 'lie' in order to 'save lives', the 'lie' was still a 'sin', but it's up to Jesus to Judge
the 'motive' - if we 'lie' to save a life, that is totally different than telling a lie to 'hurt someone',
or make any kind of 'gain' emotionally-financially-self gain, this is a very different category -
there are the weightier matters' of the Law, and there are the 'least and greatest Commandments'...
Will, you very well know that neither one of us are allowed to engage in 'debate' for it is unprofitable...
your 'motive' is becoming clear as it is a personal 'demon' that you are trying to deal with,
and the 'both' of us know very well about such things, as this is the crux of our refining, -
the courage to put off and put on,(obedience at any cost, no matter what any one else thinks,
except our Saviour)...and yes, it is a 'battle', which we will eventually win, day-by-day,when we
submit our old-worldly-ways to His Holy Ways, once we understand and accept and obey them,
and not give up,..,.
thus obedience, which we have been taught comes with our Faith, as we use what we have
been given by our Holy Master, and then given more Faith as we go along and along in order to
discern ourselves and grow-up into Christ's ways...Faith, Hope, personal assurance are
always the order of our ways, if we have and hold fast to the ways that The Holy Spirit
is trying to teach us...it's quite the challenge Brother, but it is the one that we must master,
in order to be allowed to walk in His Holy, Precious, Light...
your 'motive' is becoming clear as it is a personal 'demon' that you are trying to deal with,
and the 'both' of us know very well about such things, as this is the crux of our refining, -
the courage to put off and put on,(obedience at any cost, no matter what any one else thinks,
except our Saviour)...and yes, it is a 'battle', which we will eventually win, day-by-day,when we
submit our old-worldly-ways to His Holy Ways, once we understand and accept and obey them,
and not give up,..,.
thus obedience, which we have been taught comes with our Faith, as we use what we have
been given by our Holy Master, and then given more Faith as we go along and along in order to
discern ourselves and grow-up into Christ's ways...Faith, Hope, personal assurance are
always the order of our ways, if we have and hold fast to the ways that The Holy Spirit
is trying to teach us...it's quite the challenge Brother, but it is the one that we must master,
in order to be allowed to walk in His Holy, Precious, Light...