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Thread: Is it OK to lie?

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Bare bones ? Yes .. I would lie to save somebody's life or protect them from physical harm. As for any other scenario, I would remain silent and/or if necessary, I would tell the person questioning that it's not my business ... or theirs. If one chooses to believe that lying to save a person from harm means that God sometimes approves of lying is equivalent to saying that God also approves of killing because we are sometimes faced with war. He approves of neither. God created a perfect world. We are those responsible for the sin and death brought into it.
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo View Post
    I refrain from lying as much as possible because I have poor memory and it would be impossible for me to maintain a lie without ever falling into contradiction.
    That's not what you said last time!
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    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    Open Theism and Molinism, two inept theological camps, do err in this sense; God doesn't have an R&D department, He does all things perfectly.

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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    lying before coming to Christ just comes natural to anyone born into this fallen-world -
    lying after coming to Christ will break a Christian's heart in two for betraying their Saviour,
    and they will immediately go to Him and ask for forgivness, that's why He is sitting where
    He is...
    as we grow in Jesus, our old-worldly-habits begin to die as we put on our Saviour's Mantle
    and begin listening and obeying how to walk in His Light day-by-day......

    'Jesus Lives' is a very humble and a very wise woman, as well as a few others in this thread...
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    We recently paid someone's tuition. We have asked to remain anonymous. Should we "confess" to that support if asked by anyone?
    I would say Why do you ask? And leave it at that.

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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
    Bare bones ? Yes .. I would lie to save somebody's life or protect them from physical harm. As for any other scenario, I would remain silent and/or if necessary, I would tell the person questioning that it's not my business ... or theirs. If one chooses to believe that lying to save a person from harm means that God sometimes approves of lying is equivalent to saying that God also approves of killing because we are sometimes faced with war. He approves of neither. God created a perfect world. We are those responsible for the sin and death brought into it.
    Yes, all of what he said.
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    I taught my daughter not to lie that she should always tell the truth even if it meant she might get in trouble. I promised her that if she told me the truth that she might still be punished but that the punishment would be much lighter than if I ever caught her in a lie.

    You can't trust what people say when they are known liars. I have known a few of them in my life and it's sad as you can't believe much of anything they say.

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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    JUST CHANGE THE SUBJECT OR ANSWER A DIFFERENT QUESTION DIPLOMATICALLY

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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    I worked at a summer camp one summer as a teenager in the kitchen and at night after the work was done a good portion of the teen staff would get together and have treasure hunts. Boys would put out the clues one night and then girls would put the clues out the next night. After the hunt we would talk together for a little while and then go to bed.

    The camp nurse and camp cook knew we were doing it and said as long as we could continue to work and not cause problems they didn't have an issue with it.

    Well the camp director caught my friend and I out one night and started grilling us on who all is involved? He was really red in the face and I knew he was really angry. I told him that I would not lie to him but I wasn't a rat either so I wasn't going to tell him. This made him angrier.....well my friend and I got sent home a week early and lost our bonus pay. If I had told a good part of the staff would have been in trouble.

    Yes, I got punished but I didn't tell a lie.....

  9. #89
    Senior Member slave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by seed_time_harvest View Post
    During the holocaust many Germans hid Jews and probably lied to save much life,so then IMO,since we know that GOD looks at the heart I will say It’s the persons motive that counts.
    While the Bible never condones lying (lying for the sake of lying), does it condone lying in order to preserve a higher moral imperative? For example, As has been exampled, Rahab purposed to deceive (the lesser moral law) in order to preserve the lives of two Jewish spies (the higher moral law). Likewise, a Christian father today should he not lie despite it being a catalyst in helping protect his wife and daughters from the imminent threat of rape or murder? Or is it that we simply say we won't lie and God will help us to make it ok in the end in any circumstance Supernaturally (even in practical supernaturalness; or even in an outcome that appears in human terms to be a defeat)?

    Finally,I believe there is a Scriptural difference between lying and not telling the truth. This is not merely a matter of semantics; it is a matter of substance. By way of analogy, there is a difference between unjustified and justified homicide. Murder is unjustified homicide and is always wrong. Not every instance of killing a person, however, is murder. Capital punishment and self-defense occasion justified homicide. Similarly, in the case of a lie (Annanias and Sapphira, Acts 5) there is an unjustified discrepancy between what you believe and what you say, and so lying is always wrong. But not telling the truth in order to preserve a higher moral law (Rahab, Joshua 2) is it to be the right thing to do and thus is not actually a lie?

    I believe it is God's will that counts in all these matters not our motives one way or the other. Now the first thing that came to mind is "The truth will set men free..." and thus I grasp onto that Spiritual Truth and conclude - I would say God never wants us to lie. But truth be told, if God would have us lie in His will for a purpose He intends would that then be wrong - even by way of exception over the rule? Could we say then, God never wants us to never lie? Jesus told many He healed not to tell what had happened to them to others, and He did this because it was not yet time for His sacrifice (A purpose of God's choosing). But was Jesus asking them to lie if confronted? Or would God have established the persons steps enabling them not to lie but to divert the truth without intent to divulge mistruth? I will be listening for peoples Scriptural references for sure. Interesting...isn't it?
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  10. #90
    Senior Member homwardbound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    While the Bible never condones lying (lying for the sake of lying), does it condone lying in order to preserve a higher moral imperative? For example, As has been exampled, Rahab purposed to deceive (the lesser moral law) in order to preserve the lives of two Jewish spies (the higher moral law). Likewise, a Christian father today should he not lie despite it being a catalyst in helping protect his wife and daughters from the imminent threat of rape or murder? Or is it that we simply say we won't lie and God will help us to make it ok in the end in any circumstance Supernaturally (even in practical supernaturalness; or even in an outcome that appears in human terms to be a defeat)?

    Finally,I believe there is a Scriptural difference between lying and not telling the truth. This is not merely a matter of semantics; it is a matter of substance. By way of analogy, there is a difference between unjustified and justified homicide. Murder is unjustified homicide and is always wrong. Not every instance of killing a person, however, is murder. Capital punishment and self-defense occasion justified homicide. Similarly, in the case of a lie (Annanias and Sapphira, Acts 5) there is an unjustified discrepancy between what you believe and what you say, and so lying is always wrong. But not telling the truth in order to preserve a higher moral law (Rahab, Joshua 2) is it to be the right thing to do and thus is not actually a lie?
    I believe it is God's will that counts in all these matters not our motives one way or the other. Now the first thing that came to mind is "The truth will set men free..." and thus I grasp onto that Spiritual Truth and conclude - I would say God never wants us to lie. But truth be told, if God would have us lie in His will for a purpose He intends would that then be wrong - even by way of exception over the rule? Could we say then, God never wants us to never lie? Jesus told many He healed not to tell what had happened to them to others, and He did this because it was not yet time for His sacrifice (A purpose of God's choosing). But was Jesus asking them to lie if confronted? Or would God have established the persons steps enabling them not to lie but to divert the truth without intent to divulge mistruth? I will be listening for peoples Scriptural references for sure. Interesting...isn't it?
    Very interesting, as discernment is needed in this. Matthew 10:16-20, Luke 21:14-15, Father who knows all things, I desire fro his lead in all things, being willing to be dead to me and this world.

    No, it is not okay ever to harm another for any self-gain over it in doing it. That is what I will be Judged over when my day comes. Oh wait a sec it has come, I am already willingly dead to this world and me.

    Where new life in Risen Christ today Starts, and we get led anew. Not as in the old days, but now in the new, The Risen Christ has taken over only those that are willing to Father for this get to see this if one does not quit belief to see, one day will see by not denying God as Job also did not deny God and Stephan who went willingly to death in front of Saul. So amazing to be willing to be dead to the flesh nature, and then be held back up alive by God.

    Acts 17:28, Gal 2:20-21 To be led, can one sin again? Yes! does one and all sin again after belief today?

    YES!

    Can anyone stop sin in them whatever they believe is a sin to them in doing what they do not want to do?

    So tell me you all, is it that God Father wants you to quit sinning as it appears in the Old Testament in the Law given by Moses from God through him?

    Can anyone besides the Son, Jesus the Christ not ever sin at least one time? So then we all are guilty ad need deliverance do we not.

    Now about Rahab, how many know she is King David's Great Grandmother. Interesting yes. Father saves sinners, turns them around by his kindness as people are the tyrants, not God himself.

    So am I saying you can Lie or steal or commit adultery?????????????????????????????????????????? ??

    All things are forgiven today in the dead Christ, ALL he took it all with him to death for us to be reconciled to Father, as stated in 1 Cor. 5:17-20 Reconciled, the same as forgiven made back right

    So all things are permissible, yet not all things are not beneficial!

    So is murder beneficial, is Adultery beneficial, stealing, lying, deceiving?????????

    Each person decides as Rahab decided it is beneficial for her to save God's chosen ones then in that time of life. She chose to believe and Father revealed the truth to her.
    Moses doubted God in at the burning bush, God showed him and Moses stuttered and revealed doubt to God anyway then.
    So Moses goes on his way to Egypt and stops at an Inn on his way, and God shows up to kill him, read it in Exodus 4 around the twentieth verses

    God is a loving merciful God, that is true, and so he has died through Son once for everyone to be saved in the Risen Life of Son, not in his death. The death was for reconciliation, propitiation, in all today are forgiven through Son from Father's view, Even if one sins again, we all remain forgiven from Farther but not others.

    1John 2:1-2,12, Eph, 1:6-7,13

    To see you as forgiven is forbidden in religion, but acts as if it is not forbidden. Religion says Yes you are Forgiven BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! here then comes the Billy-Goat butting in.

    Condemning you, you, you, you, you ,you and you too. As so we each go to our corners and find others that agree with us and start our own religions as if we are right and all others are wrong.

    So we have as persons built Churches on the corner of walk don't walk with attitudes I am right and you are wrong

    God Forbid, do we not see where the true Tabernacle is???????????????????

    Hebrews 8:1-4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:


    Hebrews 8:11-13Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


    11 and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    So go ahead and sin again you are free to do that today, it is all taken away by God for you, done at the cross for all once it is done John 19:30.
    I see to appreciate this and not take it for granted as the person in Mattew 18:24-35 did.

    So I see to not take it for granted and stand in thanksgiving and praise and hope to not sin against Father period
    So I am being taught how to walk Titus 2:11-12, and choose not t harm anyone against anyone's will
    Thank You as in Psalms 100:4, and 103:12

    Col 1:21-23, especially verse 22, I do not see how anyone can make themselves better than already made Holy by Fatherf through Son tha tis rien as proof

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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    1 Corinthians 6:12
    All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.



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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    1 Corinthians 2:10
    But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 2:15
    But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 3:21
    Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 3:22
    whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 4:13
    being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 6:12
    All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 8:1
    Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom areall things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 9:12
    If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 9:22
    To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 9:25
    And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 10:11
    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 10:23
    All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all thingsedify not.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 10:33
    even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 11:2
    Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in allthings, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 11:12
    For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 13:7
    beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth allthings, endureth all things.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 14:26
    How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all thingsbe done unto edifying.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 14:40
    Let all things be done decently and in order.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 15:28
    And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Corinthians 16:14
    Let all your things be done with charity.

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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    While the Bible never condones lying (lying for the sake of lying), does it condone lying in order to preserve a higher moral imperative? For example, As has been exampled, Rahab purposed to deceive (the lesser moral law) in order to preserve the lives of two Jewish spies (the higher moral law). Likewise, a Christian father today should he not lie despite it being a catalyst in helping protect his wife and daughters from the imminent threat of rape or murder? Or is it that we simply say we won't lie and God will help us to make it ok in the end in any circumstance Supernaturally (even in practical supernaturalness; or even in an outcome that appears in human terms to be a defeat)?

    Finally,I believe there is a Scriptural difference between lying and not telling the truth. This is not merely a matter of semantics; it is a matter of substance. By way of analogy, there is a difference between unjustified and justified homicide. Murder is unjustified homicide and is always wrong. Not every instance of killing a person, however, is murder. Capital punishment and self-defense occasion justified homicide. Similarly, in the case of a lie (Annanias and Sapphira, Acts 5) there is an unjustified discrepancy between what you believe and what you say, and so lying is always wrong. But not telling the truth in order to preserve a higher moral law (Rahab, Joshua 2) is it to be the right thing to do and thus is not actually a lie?

    I believe it is God's will that counts in all these matters not our motives one way or the other. Now the first thing that came to mind is "The truth will set men free..." and thus I grasp onto that Spiritual Truth and conclude - I would say God never wants us to lie. But truth be told, if God would have us lie in His will for a purpose He intends would that then be wrong - even by way of exception over the rule? Could we say then, God never wants us to never lie? Jesus told many He healed not to tell what had happened to them to others, and He did this because it was not yet time for His sacrifice (A purpose of God's choosing). But was Jesus asking them to lie if confronted? Or would God have established the persons steps enabling them not to lie but to divert the truth without intent to divulge mistruth? I will be listening for peoples Scriptural references for sure. Interesting...isn't it?
    Jesus never sinned. Never ever. (This still amazes me.) That includes lying. He was asked if he was God, if he was the king of the Jews, and if he was the Messiah. He did NOT lie once.

    If he never had to lie, why would a man have to lie to protect his wife and children? Why must we lie to protect people? He's the goal.

    Most here have brought the question of lying down to convenience's sake. Convenience isn't the goal. He's also our strength. And that does not mean we'll get out alive.
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    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  14. #94
    Senior Member slave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Jesus never sinned. Never ever. (This still amazes me.) That includes lying. He was asked if he was God, if he was the king of the Jews, and if he was the Messiah. He did NOT lie once.

    If he never had to lie, why would a man have to lie to protect his wife and children? Why must we lie to protect people? He's the goal.

    Most here have brought the question of lying down to convenience's sake. Convenience isn't the goal. He's also our strength. And that does not mean we'll get out alive.
    I agree wholeheartedly that Jesus cannot sin, no less had to sin. But there is my Scriptural point. And I was seeking people to answer this question by way of Scripture, so we can see how the Holy Spirit cements this in our minds via His Spirit communicating to us thru the Bible....and I am open to Scripture concerning this point for sure.

    God chose to use a lying spirit because Ahab rejected God's rebukes and warnings all through his life and the cup of God’s wrath was full. Since God is sovereign over all of creation, He is not restricted in what or whom He can use to accomplish His holy purposes. All of creation is under His authority, and He chooses to use people and spirits, both good and evil, to bring His divine plans to pass and bring glory to Himself. “He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: ‘What have you done?’" (Daniel 4:35).

    In the case of Ahab, God chose to use a lying spirit to accomplish His perfect and righteous plan (Psalms 18:30). The lying spirit will receive its punishment just as Ahab did, and those who repent of their sins will receive forgiveness just like Ahab could have. The real question is, “Will I respond to God's warnings with faith and obedience, or will I reject His counsel and be rejected by Him?”

    And again, nowhere in the Bible does it condone lying. We, however are talking about the what if's is all...And Scripture shows us some. So we can discern spiritually why, and how it meets God's will.
    Last edited by slave; 1 Week Ago at 11:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    You would roast them. Has nothing to do with the Bible or what others would do.

    Me? I know why he was in the adult bookstore, and why other men and women from the congregation were coming out with him. They had been praying at that book store, for months, that the Lord would shut it down. (He did, btw.)

    I'm not the one trying so hard to "catch" others with these scenarios. I know what the Bible says, and tell that over Willieisms.
    Gosh, I'm sorry. I sometimes forget how Holy you are.
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    I doubt anyone here could ever stop lying and without Jesus Christ every single lie would land us in hell so its still pretty serious.

    I still do it and even though i often catch myself dont even correct my error but at the same time i think we should still realize what would normally be the punishment.
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    In a way, perhaps. But compare "You can only speak words that are completely truthful.... to anyone, at any time", to the actual words of the Commandment.

    Willie,

    I'll agree there are times when it's justified for a human to lie.
    But I don't think we can use the wording of the ninth commandment as the explanation.


    The prohibition against lying goes far beyond the 9th commandment

    Although the commandment does talk about "bearing false witness", which is more specific than a generic untruth, there ARE other scriptures that talk about lying.

    So we have other scriptures talking about lying, and we have many many scriptures talking about truth in very generic terms... and the natural antithesis would be a lie. Therefore the whole issue of lying, in generic terms, is pretty well established as a moral failure, regardless of the exact wording of the ninth commandment.


    Hierarchy of Moral Duties
    I think the explanation for lying is simply found in the hierarchy of moral duties.

    Some things are simply more important than other things.
    We all intuitively know this.
    It's more important to save a life than lie to a guard hunting for Israelites.


    Rahab
    An interesting note, Rahab is specifically praised for HIDING the Israelites, not LYING about it.
    So although she did have to lie to protect them, her original act of nobility, and the act for which she is always remembered in scripture is the act of HIDING them. The fact she lied is never really mentioned later in scripture.
    It's almost like it's covered over.



    One last point about lying:

    * Muslims actually have a special doctrine of lying, called Al Taqiyya. They have specific circumstances, in the Koran, where they are specifically told it's good and virtuous to lie. And as you might expect, this bit of moral latitude is blown way out of proportion in actual practice, and used to justify all kinds of things.

    * Christians on the other hand, are NEVER told specifically in scripture, as a proposition, that it is justified to lie.
    We are never given permission.
    Even though we see lies occur a few times in the Bible in order to bring about a greater good, we are never told directly, propositionally, that we ever have any justification to lie.

    Why?
    Why this odd difference?
    Why is it, that although we KNOW there are some times when a lie is justified, we are still never given any direct permission to lie?

    I think it's just due to our God understanding our nature.
    He doesn't need to give us permission.
    If a parent needs to lie to save the life a child, that parent is just going to do it.
    It's already in our fallen nature to sin, and to lie... it CERTAINLY isn't hard for us to lie for a GOOD REASON, lol.
    It's very easy for us to lie.
    It's easy, and natural.
    So... if God were to give us specific PERMISSION to lie... wow... just imagine how we'd run with that.
    We'd run with it, and blow it all out of proportion, just like the Muslims do with their doctrine of Al Taqiyya.
    Laish and Lafftur like this.

  18. #98
    Member Lafftur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    Well, we know God cannot lie (probably because whatever He says becomes true) and we know that we cannot get away with lying to God because He knows everything. So, hmmmm........

    It's absolutely impossible to lie to God. So, we can only lie to each other. However, if the Spirit of Truth dwells in us, there's no way we can lie and feel good about it.

    I think this is a trick question. I'm going with my gut and it says, "No - it is NOT okay to lie."
    JesusLives likes this.

  19. #99
    Senior Member Huckleberry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    We are not to bear false witness against thy neighbor.
    A lie to protect an innocent person is a good thing.
    Several years ago a reporter asked a "gotcha" question to a Christian politician.
    Something along the lines of, "If you were the person hiding Anne Frank's family from the Gestapo,
    would you lie to the Gestapo and protect them, or would you give them up to certain death?"
    Well, it worked.
    The politician took the bait and said they would have
    given them up to the Gestapo because all lying is wrong.
    Willie-T and AuntieAnt like this.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Is it OK to lie?

    i think the bible is pretty clear on the matter of lieing.

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