Is it OK to lie?

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Depleted

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No one was saying telling the truth was wrong.... just that there were times in the Bible that God seemed to turn a blind eye to...like the instance with Rahab. She was rewarded for lying to the guards...she and her family were spared. God did not condemn or punish her. She contributed to the work of the Lord. I think that's more what this threads about and not about justifying being a liar.
God does not turn a blind eye to sin. He punishes for sin. We either pay the price for our sin or Jesus does. It was not without punishment though. God is consistent. We're the ones not consistent.

She does seem to have gone on to become a believer, but it wasn't through the Lord turning a blind eye. It was through him changing her, just like he's doing for all his people.
 
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Depleted

Guest
I have a friend who was in a mental institution. Should I come right out and announce that to strangers simply because it is true (knowing it is pretty common for people to react differently to a person when they learn that) or should I, in actuality, lie by omission if ever asked about it? A lie, is a lie, no matter how you try to describe it differently, according to some of what I am hearing here.
I don't get "lie by omission." The command is to not give false witness. How do you give any witness by not saying anything -- false or true witness?

Personally, I think "lie by omission" is as new as rapture, age of accountability, and don't ever say damn. The Pharisees were very aware they could not keep the Law, so they "fixed" it, and darn -- no damn -- if much of the church isn't still changing the Law today.
 
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I don't get "lie by omission." The command is to not give false witness. How do you give any witness by not saying anything -- false or true witness?

Personally, I think "lie by omission" is as new as rapture, age of accountability, and don't ever say damn. The Pharisees were very aware they could not keep the Law, so they "fixed" it, and darn -- no damn -- if much of the church isn't still changing the Law today.

So, what would you call the entire scene of Moses' infancy? The hiding him in the bulrushes... the claiming to simply be a "Wet Nurse" by his mother, her never coming forward to tell the truth that he was actually her son? According to you, she should have told them the truth so they could kill him.
 
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Prov910

Senior Member
Jan 10, 2017
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I don't get "lie by omission." The command is to not give false witness. How do you give any witness by not saying anything -- false or true witness?

Personally, I think "lie by omission" is as new as rapture, age of accountability, and don't ever say damn. The Pharisees were very aware they could not keep the Law, so they "fixed" it, and darn -- no damn -- if much of the church isn't still changing the Law today.
This is a lie by omission: http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/159246-okay-clergyman-tell-white-lie-comfort-his-flock.html

A group of mothers asked their priest whether he had been with their friend on her deathbed to comfort her gradeschool age daughter. (He hadn't.) He replied reassuringly, "We do what we can." <<THAT was a lie by omission. The priest didn't actually lie and say he'd been there. He actually didn't say anything about whether he'd been there or not. But he made a statement that led them to believe he had. His misleading omission (not saying whether he'd been there) was a lie.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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This is a lie by omission: http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/159246-okay-clergyman-tell-white-lie-comfort-his-flock.html

A group of mothers asked their priest whether he had been with their friend on her deathbed to comfort her gradeschool age daughter. (He hadn't.) He replied reassuringly, "We do what we can." <<THAT was a lie by omission. The priest didn't actually lie and say he'd been there. He actually didn't say anything about whether he'd been there or not. But he made a statement that led them to believe he had. His misleading omission (not saying whether he'd been there) was a lie.
"We do what we can" was code for not really doing anything said with the purpose of remaining in good standing with the mother. Furthermore, saying the word "We" instead of "I" was a tactic to spread the blame so as to not be individually accountable. It was definitely a lie of omission because of the intent to mislead.
 
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renewed_hope

Guest
Hi renewed...It could of been a way God was blessing you through your best friend offering help to you...Sometimes we miss God's blessing because of our pride, lying is not ok, no matter how we dress it up...xox...
A lot of people allow money to come into the relationship much too soon. I acknowledged his generosity and said no thank you because I know I WILL be okay. I don't feel right about taking $$ from the man I AM dating for several reasons. One, money always has a way of changing people good or bad. I don't think he's like this, but I don't want him thinking that I owe him something if you know what I mean. We've already had sex, but made the agreement not to partake of that again until we are married and I didn't want to be tempted because it is so easy to fall into it again after the first time....and second, he is planning on taking a few months off of work as a vacation from the day to day job (it's extremely stressful) and I didn't want to take away from the funds to do it and lastly, if something were to happen unexpected to us I didn't want to have money owed to him, things can get really hairy. The thing is, this is one of the huge reasons why I don't recommend living together or sharing finances or bills because the unexpected can and will happen and then you are in the middle of a HUGE mess. There are some things you don't talk about while you are dating, if you are engaged both partners have a financial stake in the relationship anyway. Yes, money is the #1 reason for divorce, but you can still discuss or philosophy regarding how to spend it and you can tell if they don't budget like they should.
 
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"We do what we can" was code for not really doing anything said with the purpose of remaining in good standing with the mother. Furthermore, saying the word "We" instead of "I" was a tactic to spread the blame so as to not be individually accountable. It was definitely a lie of omission because of the intent to mislead.
That's certainly a possibility. But, do any of us know, positively, that such was the motive behind his "un-claim" to have been there?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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Let's give some rough, basic definitions:


1. Logical Contradiction = state something which is untrue or invalid (often accidental)

2. Lie = intentionally state something which is untrue

3. Bear False Witness = intentionally state something which is untrue ABOUT SOMEONE



God can do NONE of these.
He cannot state an untruth, either intentionally or accidentally.

Man can do all of these:
and they inherently contain varying degrees of moral failure depending on the INTENT.



Priorities of Moral Duty

1. We all know some things are worse than other things; we all have a sense of this.
(Telling a white lie about your wife's cooking isn't as bad as torturing a child.)

2. All sin separates us from God equally, nonetheless, we all know some things are intrinsically worse (MORE HARMFUL) than other things.

3. We can refer to this in different ways, but some would call it our Priority of Moral Duties.

4. Sometimes a lesser duty, like being absolutely truthful about a small matter, is simply outweighed by a higher duty, like saving a life.

5. It is a lesser duty to be completely truthful to a soldier representing the wicked city of Jericho, than to save the life of two Israelites.



Why does God never lie to prioritize his moral duties?


1. Technically, God doesn't have moral duties exactly, but rather all morals of right and wrong flow out of his nature... they are part of his being, not external rules he must follow.

2. It is impossible for God to tell an untruth: it is actually something he cannot do because it is outside of his very nature, just as a fish cannot fly, and a man cannot breathe underwater.

3. God, if he should need to change anything, never needs to LIE in order to do so; God has all power. God can change anything, at any time, without the need to lie.

Humans lie to achieve different outcomes because we have no POWER to change the circumstances.
God however has ALL POWER to change anything he wishes to change.
 
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Depleted

Guest

So, what would you call the entire scene of Moses' infancy? The hiding him in the bulrushes... the claiming to simply be a "Wet Nurse" by his mother, her never coming forward to tell the truth that he was actually her son? According to you, she should have told them the truth so they could kill him.
So, Moses' mother was supposed to know the Law God handed to that same infant 80+ years later? My, how you twist things to make it okay, no matter what.

Honestly? I think this whole thread is about you trying to teach young'ns that it's okay to lie, and let's just skip the scripture that says it's not. Reminds me of Genesis 3. "Did God actually say...?"

I worry how slippery you slide back and forth weaving in and out of what God has told us, in order to influence young'ns, babes, and the naive into your 20th century style form christianity. I think you are a bad influence, and yet I keep watching you, over and over again, whittling away at God's word to get your word.

There is no relativism! It is God's word! He's not fooling. Even if you keep asking, "Did God actually say?"

Moses' mother? Guess what! God used Pharaoh in all the right ways too to get his people free, but that doesn't mean what Pharaoh did was acceptable either. Was Moses' mom one of the people who were released from Egypt? (And don't tell me she was dead before he left. We don't know, because, seriously, Moses made it to 120. Joshua was in his 50's in that first battle in the wilderness, and yet also at the first battle in the Promise Land 40 years later. We'd be middle aged if we lived back then. lol)
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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Please note: God still never gives us express permission to lie.

Despite our "prioritizing of moral duties",
which seems to be a very natural thing,
and which we can sometimes find in scripture,
God still never gives us specific, propositional permission to lie.
He never, ever, ever, just says lying is ok.

But he does know we will tell untruths.
He knows we'll tell untruths for ill.
He also knows we'll sometimes tell untruths to maintain a "higher moral duty."

But in all of this, he never gives us express permission to lie.


It's a strange topic.
But it's ok to discuss these things.

I would feel perfectly confident telling any child, anywhere, flat out, DO NOT LIE.
 
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Depleted

Guest
This is a lie by omission: http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/159246-okay-clergyman-tell-white-lie-comfort-his-flock.html

A group of mothers asked their priest whether he had been with their friend on her deathbed to comfort her gradeschool age daughter. (He hadn't.) He replied reassuringly, "We do what we can." <<THAT was a lie by omission. The priest didn't actually lie and say he'd been there. He actually didn't say anything about whether he'd been there or not. But he made a statement that led them to believe he had. His misleading omission (not saying whether he'd been there) was a lie.
That was "false witness," not omission. (I do remember your post.)

Same kind of deal with the hiding Jew's scenario. If I hide them in the basement, and told, (spoke), the Nazis that they weren't upstairs. That's not lying by omission, because they weren't upstairs. If I told them they weren't in the basement, that isn't lying by omission. That's just lying.

Let your Yes mean Yes and your No mean No.

Also, the very reason I wouldn't say anything at all.

And, yeah. Did that pastor sin? Sure he did. BUT, what are we supposed to do about people who sin against us?
 
Feb 7, 2015
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That was "false witness," not omission. (I do remember your post.)

Same kind of deal with the hiding Jew's scenario. If I hide them in the basement, and told, (spoke), the Nazis that they weren't upstairs. That's not lying by omission, because they weren't upstairs. If I told them they weren't in the basement, that isn't lying by omission. That's just lying.

Let your Yes mean Yes and your No mean No.

Also, the very reason I wouldn't say anything at all.

And, yeah. Did that pastor sin? Sure he did. BUT, what are we supposed to do about people who sin against us?
THAT really does seem to say a lot about the way you "follow Jesus."
 
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Depleted

Guest
Let's give some rough, basic definitions:


1. Logical Contradiction = state something which is untrue or invalid (often accidental)

2. Lie = intentionally state something which is untrue

3. Bear False Witness = intentionally state something which is untrue ABOUT SOMEONE



God can do NONE of these.
He cannot state an untruth, either intentionally or accidentally.

Man can do all of these:
and they inherently contain varying degrees of moral failure depending on the INTENT.



Priorities of Moral Duty

1. We all know some things are worse than other things; we all have a sense of this.
(Telling a white lie about your wife's cooking isn't as bad as torturing a child.)

2. All sin separates us from God equally, nonetheless, we all know some things are intrinsically worse (MORE HARMFUL) than other things.

3. We can refer to this in different ways, but some would call it our Priority of Moral Duties.

4. Sometimes a lesser duty, like being absolutely truthful about a small matter, is simply outweighed by a higher duty, like saving a life.

5. It is a lesser duty to be completely truthful to a soldier representing the wicked city of Jericho, than to save the life of two Israelites.



Why does God never lie to prioritize his moral duties?


1. Technically, God doesn't have moral duties exactly, but rather all morals of right and wrong flow out of his nature... they are part of his being, not external rules he must follow.

2. It is impossible for God to tell an untruth: it is actually something he cannot do because it is outside of his very nature, just as a fish cannot fly, and a man cannot breathe underwater.

3. God, if he should need to change anything, never needs to LIE in order to do so; God has all power. God can change anything, at any time, without the need to lie.

Humans lie to achieve different outcomes because we have no POWER to change the circumstances.
God however has ALL POWER to change anything he wishes to change.
Agreed all the way up to the last paragraph. Humans have no power, except God's chosen people. Those humans have God's power. God working through us would give us the words that worked without bearing false witness, because God wouldn't bear false witness.
 
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Depleted

Guest
THAT really does seem to say a lot about the way you "follow Jesus."
Thank you!

(And, I'm absolutely sure that was you being all snooty, but honestly, I don't care. I really do thank you for noticing someone is following Jesus, instead of your relativism/"But did God say?")
 

Pipp

Majestic Llamacorn
Sep 17, 2013
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The end of the matter is we each will give account of our actions before God. You do what you believe is Biblical and right and God will be the judge of the intentions of the heart.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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I have nothing to add to this thread but I am watching it intently. I certainly hope we will figure out it is okay to lie, because I have a lot of lies that I want to tell people. Man, the money I could make if only...
 

Huckleberry

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
1,698
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I have nothing to add to this thread but I am watching it intently.
I certainly hope we will figure out it is okay to lie, because I have a lot of lies that I want to tell people.
Man, the money I could make if only...
You're cynical because you lack perspective.
Let's pretend you're, say, a Chinese Christian, and your wife is pregnant with your third child.
Since this is illegal under Chinese law, the Authorities will be visiting you.
By a miracle of God, you have been able to make arrangements for you and your wife
to escape from China to the United States, but you can't make your move until tomorrow.
The aforementioned Authorities will be visiting you today, and if your wife is there, they will
arrest her and take her to a "hospital" where "doctors" will provide her with "medical care".
You must hide her, but the only safe place is buried in a hole underneath your
house with a 24 hour oxygen supply, and she cannot get out unless you dig her up.
When the Authorities arrive and ask where your wife is, what do you tell them?
 
Feb 7, 2015
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You're cynical because you lack perspective.
Let's pretend you're, say, a Chinese Christian, and your wife is pregnant with your third child.
Since this is illegal under Chinese law, the Authorities will be visiting you.
By a miracle of God, you have been able to make arrangements for you and your wife
to escape from China to the United States, but you can't make your move until tomorrow.
The aforementioned Authorities will be visiting you today, and if your wife is there, they will
arrest her and take her to a "hospital" where "doctors" will provide her with "medical care".
You must hide her, but the only safe place is buried in a hole underneath your
house with a 24 hour oxygen supply, and she cannot get out unless you dig her up.
When the Authorities arrive and ask where your wife is, what do you tell them?
Some of these Blowhards talk a big story, but when the rubber meets the road, everyone here knows the truth. Their talk turns out to be just that.... talking without thinking.
 

gerty

Junior Member
Jan 7, 2018
13
0
0
I don't get "lie by omission." The command is to not give false witness. How do you give any witness by not saying anything -- false or true witness?

Personally, I think "lie by omission" is as new as rapture, age of accountability, and don't ever say damn. The Pharisees were very aware they could not keep the Law, so they "fixed" it, and darn **expletive removed** if much of the church isn't still changing the Law today.

amen brother,i dont think any truer words were ever spoken.
 
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Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
24,913
8,167
113
Some of these Blowhards talk a big story, but when the rubber meets the road, everyone here knows the truth. Their talk turns out to be just that.... talking without thinking.
Was I just called cynical AND a blowhard?

I wasn't weighing in on either side of this fracas. I was just making a facetious remark.

Huck, Willie, you guys really should relax a bit, maybe take a blood pressure pill. Your BP has gotta be sky high by now.