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Thread: Is hell justifyed?

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    Default Is hell justifyed?

    My whole family is mostly Christian, but im starting to think based on the evidence given in the bible that god is inherently evil. As hell seems to be far great of a punishment. How can finite sin be given a cruel inifinite punishment. That doesnt seem just. If my logic is wrong please correct me, im just very confused.

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    Senior Member Ugly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Think of it this way. Lucifer sins in heaven. The sin is pride. He believes he deserves to be praised more than God. That he is above God and can overtake God. God boots his butt out of heaven in a flash. Does Lucifer repent? No. The sin has now infested him and not only does he not repent he takes an active position to fight Against what is holy.
    Lets take a look at some of the effects sin has on the world we live in.
    Rape.
    Murder.
    Serial killers.
    Jealousy.
    Kidnapping.
    Domestic abuse.
    Child rape and molestation.
    Sex trafficking.
    Drug abuse.
    Alcoholism.
    War.
    Hatred.
    Torture.
    All forms of violence.

    That's some of what first came to me, the list could go on. There are people who dedicate their lives to their chosen sin. People who openly mock God when they engage in sin. They lives their lives dedicated to resisting, mocking and refusing God. When they die God gives them exactly what they have strived for their whole lives, a Godless existence.
    By the way, hell was not created for humans. But once humans began sinning their punishment became the same as any other created being. And humans have a Choice. It's not as if God created a way out and kept it secret. People actively choose not to follow God. They know God is offering them a gift of salvation and they deny it. How is it then unfair that people who know, yet refuse, get the punishment they were warned about?
    Sin is a corruption that spreads. Would you want to invite those in that spread corruption? Would you want to reward them?

    And also since we know Lucifer sinned, and Lucifer was NOT a finite being, therefore sin is not finite either. The first sin took place in the spiritual realm, not the physical. Hence we know that sin is, by it's nature, not physical, but spiritual. Spiritual is not finite. It's man that is finite.
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    What allures and arouses the heart we can't figure out
    But it's the quickest way to account for what we prize
    And are most proud about
    These gods make promises but always lie to us
    The kinds of lies that says they'll keep us safe and satisfy us
    We blame the lies outside of us
    But it's the lie that lies inside that captures the depth of desires and false messiahs

    ~Beautiful Eulogy - Messiah~


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    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zray View Post
    My whole family is mostly Christian, but im starting to think based on the evidence given in the bible that god is inherently evil. As hell seems to be far great of a punishment. How can finite sin be given a cruel inifinite punishment. That doesnt seem just. If my logic is wrong please correct me, im just very confused.


    What makes you think that sin against an infinite being only constitutes a finite sin?


    It's quite plausible to think that a sin against an infinite being would be, intrinsically, a sin with infinite properties.









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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    That does bring up a great point, i just dont see it as objectively right to punish finite action with inifinite suffering. There are other ways that my beliefs differ from those of other christans. For instance i dont believe that everything stated in the bible taken at face value can be true. For instance the ability to create anything and the idea of being all powerful cant coexist with eachother without creating a paradox. So if certain parts of thebible cantbe taken as true, how much of it can be regarded as true.

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    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zray View Post
    That does bring up a great point, i just dont see it as objectively right to punish finite action with inifinite suffering. There are other ways that my beliefs differ from those of other christans. For instance i dont believe that everything stated in the bible taken at face value can be true. For instance the ability to create anything and the idea of being all powerful cant coexist with eachother without creating a paradox. So if certain parts of thebible cantbe taken as true, how much of it can be regarded as true.
    You really raise too many questions for just one thread.


    However, the issue of God's omnipotence is called a problem of incoherence, and these philosophical coherency arguments usually don't hold up to much real logical scrutiny.
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    Senior Member Lynx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    The problem with asking if God is justified in doing anything God does is you are talking about God.

    If you believe God is real:
    There is no logical reason to complain that God is unjustified in doing anything God wants with the world God made. If I chose to take a poleaxe to my laptop, would you protest? It's my laptop, I can do what I want with it. I could put koolaid in my car's oil pan if I wanted, and you wouldn't have any right to stop me because it's MY name on that vehicle's title. God made this world, and who are you - one of the people God made - to say God can't do whatever God wants with God's own creation?

    If you don't believe God is real:
    How could God have done the thing you think is not justified?
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zray View Post
    That does bring up a great point, i just dont see it as objectively right to punish finite action with inifinite suffering. There are other ways that my beliefs differ from those of other christans. For instance i dont believe that everything stated in the bible taken at face value can be true. For instance the ability to create anything and the idea of being all powerful cant coexist with eachother without creating a paradox. So if certain parts of thebible cantbe taken as true, how much of it can be regarded as true.
    It is also not handed down as a "punishment" as we understand punishment... it is actually the natural, predicted result of our actions.

    If you were told to not slide your hand across a very sharp knife edge, because the results would be painful... but you did it anyway? Is the person that warned you punishing you for doing that, or are you simply receiving the just results of your own actions?
    No man is really saved unless he is in his heart obedient to Christ. C.H. Spurgeon

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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    True, this is. If I put koolaid in my car's oil pan, does the Ford Motor Company punish me for such an action by making my car break down?

    Hell is not something God uses to punish "bad people." It is something God warns us about many times, and made a way for us to avoid.

    "Is hell justified?" (or justifyed) has multiple logical counts against it. It does not hold up as a valid question.
    "Do you sing at church?"
    "Yes I sing at church. And I sing at work. And I sing at home... and in the car... at the supermarket... at Wal-Mart..."

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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Hell is a default condition; if in the presence of God there's peace/joy/love/laughter/health, it is by default that being away from the presence of God, you are right in the middle of suffering/lamentations/pain.
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zray View Post
    My whole family is mostly Christian, but im starting to think based on the evidence given in the bible that god is inherently evil. As hell seems to be far great of a punishment. How can finite sin be given a cruel inifinite punishment. That doesnt seem just. If my logic is wrong please correct me, im just very confused.
    So with your 3 pound human brain, your logic, understanding and wisdom is greater than the Entity that created YOU and the entire Universe?

    Also, when you pick and choose what you like and what you think is true, and discard the rest, you actually make yourself out to be god.
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Read:

    Job 38-42
    Isaiah 40
    Romans 3

    Just gonna leave it there
    So you're telling me this is a signature line??

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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Every time a new forum member opens a thread with a question that casts aspersions on God's right to do something, I always try to let it play out for a bit just in case the question is a legitimate complaint from a person who is really hurting. But I think this thread has gone on long enough and seen enough replies from the OP to officially call this a troll.

    "I'm not saying this is a troll... But it's probably a troll."
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx View Post
    Every time a new forum member opens a thread with a question that casts aspersions on God's right to do something, I always try to let it play out for a bit just in case the question is a legitimate complaint from a person who is really hurting. But I think this thread has gone on long enough and seen enough replies from the OP to officially call this a troll.

    "I'm not saying this is a troll... But it's probably a troll."
    Haha, you caught me. Though as said above this wasnt a valid question. This is one of the many things that athiests say is a problem with religion. I wanted to see how Christians would respond. So what do Christians made of the studies that have found correlations between being religous and lower overall intellegence. And yes i know im an asshole.

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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    POPCORN!!!!
    So you're telling me this is a signature line??

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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zray View Post
    My whole family is mostly Christian, but im starting to think based on the evidence given in the bible that god is inherently evil. As hell seems to be far great of a punishment. How can finite sin be given a cruel inifinite punishment. That doesnt seem just. If my logic is wrong please correct me, im just very confused.
    I don’t think God ‘sends’ anyone to 'hell'. Suppose I built a resort for the homeless, and all I asked was that on their way in the door they acknowledge and thank me for doing so. “Hey man, I really appreciate you doing this” and you’re in the door. Tell me to kiss off, and you can go sit on the curb outside. Am I really responsible for those who chose to sit on the curb outside?

    Too, our universe is made up at the subatomic level with clusters of like charged particles, which science tells us should naturally repel each other. They call the unknown factor that keeps it all from exploding "the strong force". There are several theories as to the source of this ‘strong force’, including God’s claim that He holds it all together. Now, on that theory, He says He spoke it all into being out of nothingness, while science says out of nothingness kaboom there it is. Then God also says that someday He will speak it out of existence. Paul describes that moment with the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Think of what happens when the atom is split – intense heat and fire.

    Now, the interesting thing is that we don’t see the lake of fire (what we equate to eternal hell) appear until right after this present earth and heavens are de-created. Could it be that the de-creation of our world creates the lake of fire, and God lets those who loved this world more than Him have it in its natural state apart from Him?

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    Truth is available only to those who have the courage to question whatever they think they know.

    It's hard to learn anything when you always feel the need to be the expert.

    Mark 7:34 “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”

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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zray View Post
    Haha, you caught me. Though as said above this wasnt a valid question. This is one of the many things that athiests say is a problem with religion. I wanted to see how Christians would respond. So what do Christians made of the studies that have found correlations between being religous and lower overall intellegence. And yes i know im an asshole.
    I can find studies that claim anything and everything, with youtube videos and websites to back it up. Of course the websites will mostly be .net sites with something like 40 fonts per page...

    I always go with what works. I have tested everything you claim to not believe and I have proven to my satisfaction that it all works. I won't bother describing the things I know work and why I know they work, for you will not believe me. But christianity works.

    And about that study, you really should check your sources. I saw that article on yahoo "news" more than a year ago. Their claims were specious then and even moreso now.
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    Senior Member Lynx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    And Zray, you never did answer the question. If God does exist, how do you justify objecting to anything God does with the world God made? If God does not exist, how can you say God does any of the things to which you object?

    Also why do you keep arguing on a forum about something you don't even think exists? Are you really THAT bored? If so, come on over. I have a metric ton of stuff you can do to keep yourself occupied, and it would help me out a lot. I would even pay!
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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zray View Post
    My whole family is mostly Christian, but im starting to think based on the evidence given in the bible that god is inherently evil. As hell seems to be far great of a punishment. How can finite sin be given a cruel inifinite punishment. That doesnt seem just. If my logic is wrong please correct me, im just very confused.
    People will not be cast into the eternal lake of fire because of their sins.. They will be cast into the eternal lake of fire for rejecting Gods forgivness for their sins..

    Also i do not see many people coming into Christian forums arguing that God is not just because He is gifting some people eternal life in His perfect paradise.. If eternal damnation is unjust then so to is eternal paradise..

    The point is that no one earns either reward or punishment.. It is all about ones acceptance or rejection of the Message of God..

    The most evil sin is not those sins common to all men on earth.. The most evil sin is to reject the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zray View Post
    Haha, you caught me. Though as said above this wasnt a valid question. This is one of the many things that athiests say is a problem with religion. I wanted to see how Christians would respond. So what do Christians made of the studies that have found correlations between being religous and lower overall intellegence. And yes i know im an asshole.
    You seem to assume human intellegance is nothing but a positive thing... Human intellegence leads to a human believing that they can trust in their own thinking.. But all human intellegence no matter how high or low does not help when it comes to security in the Eternal sence with God.. Those of low IQ or those with very high IQ will understand or come to understand that they are limited imperfect human beings,, But a lot of people with high IQ are just not wise enough to know that the greatest wisdom a human being canb have is to kn ow that they are a limited imperfect being..

    The scriptures have this topic covered with the following::

    (1 Corinthians 1:23-29) "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; {24} But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. {25} Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. {26} For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: {27} But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; {28} And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: {29} That no flesh should glory in his presence."

    Oh and about that Very high IQ comment..


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    Default Re: Is hell justifyed?

    I like to think it in a simple way...
    God is holy.. in the old testament, only certain people can go near His sacred places.. and if that people has sin, they will dead instantly..
    But God didnt want that, He want to be close to everyone of us.. sinners or not.. He loves everyone of us.. thats why He send Jesus so we can have life and not dead..
    if you have sin and not repent how come you want to go heaven (His place) where its holy there.. you'll dead instantly.. you cant change the fact that He is holy because its His nature.. just like you cant change the fact that sun is HOT and you'll burnt and blind if you go near it..
    thats why when you repent and accepted Jesus, your sin wash away.. if not, you cant go to heaven (due to His holiness) but separate from God (and we believe that place is in hell)
    He gave us freedom to choose
    but dont follow Jesus because you scared going to hell >_< following Him because you love Him and because He already love you first
    Phillipian 2:3-5
    Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
    In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus

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