It needed saying.. and I don't mind being thought a loon.

Take it to Jesus; it's with His word you seem to have issue.

That may sound snarky but it isn't. I mean it quite literally. Pray about the passage in question. Ask Jesus to reveal the truth to you.

That's easy! God can do more than you thought God could do. He could strike wicked men down with fire from the sky, but God also sometimes causes them to run headlong into their own ruin. Just because it doesn't fit what you think of as God, that doesn't mean it is wrong. It just means God doesn't fit in your neat little box.

For an encore, let's debate how God could raise up a Pharaoh and harden his heart just for the sole purpose of striking him down. Or how God could let Israel be oppressed in slavery for years in Egypt, just so God could deliver them.

If all we do is remain teachable.. we are doing better than most.

I appreciate your enthusiasm.. but saying that God can do whatever He wants (which I agree with) doesn't prove God wants to put lying spirits in the mouths of prophets (1Kings 22:23)... and citing scripture that says God hardened pharoah's heart... when scripture also says pharaohs hardened his own heart (contradicting itself... Ex.9:34-35)

If God wants to do something He can do it... but does He want to lie, deceive, or take away choice from people? ... that is what hardening a heart amounts to.

I believe the Bible IS inspired of God... insofar as it's been translated correctly... and today, peoe just put too much stock in the meshing of language... and the talents of linguists...

That is what I'm saying... remains. Teachable... because one day we will meet God... and He will say, "Really? You thought I was a liar because a book said it?... you have idolized a book and not sought the true me."

I have no problem with the verse.. King Ahab did evil and God brought judgement upon him by sending that spirit to Ahabs prophets to lead him to his death.. The penalty for rebelling against the will of God is death.. God can carry out the death sentence any way which He deems to do so.. Whether it be Ahab, Pharaoh or end times people who reject the love of the truth that would save them in 2 Thessalonians 2...

Not much of a challenging at all..

No it does not contradict.. If you read the account Pharaoh hardened His own heart twice before God decided to keep His heart hardened for the rest of the time.. God keeping pharaohs heart hardened was justified by pharaoh hardening his own heart twice against the will of God to let His people go..

Just as God will be justified in sending delusion upon the people mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 for their rejection of Gods Way of salvation, The love of the Gospel truth that would have them saved. Once they reject the Way of salvation they are doomed anyway so God sending them delusion so that they will be deceived by satans false signs and wonders is a form of judgement upon them for rejecting the love of the truth..

God gave pharaoh a choice and he rejected God twice,,
God sent warning to Ahab by the prophet Micaiah on more then one occasion and Ahab ended up throwing Micaiah into prison.
Gods offer of salvation by the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ has been repeatedly been given to the people of this world by messengers who have been attacked and denigrated and persecuted time and time again,, Si they will suffer a similar judgement as King Ahab and Pharaoh..

Lets see if you are teachable Jason...

Adstar... To paraphrase part of your statement... "just as God is justified to give up on some people and deceive them...."

I don't think He does either of those things.

...but we all have scales on our eyes to so.e extent... myself included. We just have to ask for their removal.

With regard to the hardening of hearts... a house divided agai st itself cannot stand... so God will not deceive anyone... and the offered of truth will not close a heart to it... Ex. 8:15, 32, 9:34, 1Sam 6:6...

Isaiah 29:13-14

Thank you Adstar, I was trying to think of that one last night. Second Thessalonians 2:11 it was.

Jason we don't idolize a book. We idolize the God who wrote it. If you start throwing out what you don't believe you will soon find everything you do believe is in jeopardy, because the Bible all fits together. Throw out one part, the rest falls down.

2 Timothy 3:16

Are you going to stand before God and tell Him you didn't believe what He gave us to read? "Nah, I didn't think that could be right because it didn't fit with my concept of You."

Jason, you are relating to God as if He were a man like yourself,
He is not a man, and must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth
by those whom He has called, chosen, and elected...

You believe that God can do all things, I assume... is it possible that God created you with unlimited potential?

And... is God capable of making himself understandable to us?

=======================================================

What you think God should or should not do is irrelevant to the truth of what God does and does not do..

God foreknows our entire lives even before we are born and foreknows how each person will respond to His will.. He already knows who is going to reject the Love of His truth and therefore can raise them up to be used like God used Pharoah.. One day God will give over false christians who have rejected the true way of salvation, to the final great deception. and they will believe that the anti-christ will be the returned Jesus and will worship him as God on earth.. You better believe God gives people over to all kinds of deceptions and depravity as a form of judgement upon them for rejecting His loving gift of salvation..

That's not an answer to either of my questions... so... ? This has been fun.. and God never lies... and never deceives or deluded... and never takes away freedom... and wants us to know this about Him. Titus 1:2

Jason: If you can pick some verses to throw out, so can I. I choose Titus 1:2 because it doesn't fit how I think of God.


Okay, enough being silly. Jason please be aware that scripture does not "trump" scripture. There is no scripture that supersedes other scripture. If two verses seem to conflict, you should shift your perspective until they agree. And yes, you can shift your perspective until the whole Bible lines up and agrees with itself in all respects.

In fact that's the way you know you are reading it right. When all of it agrees with itself.

Are we misbehaving with our "swords" again? Please don't hurt each other. Play nice! LOL!

Ummm.. you didn't actually get my point... or read that scripture did you? ... I didn't bring up Titus 1:2 because it's wrong.. I brought it up because it's right.

It reads.. "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"... it says that God CANNOT lie...

...and that's why any verse that says He delves into lies or deception should be suspect.

The reading of scripture is a test... I hope we all pass one day.

If you still can't see my point.. maybe it's not for you... maybe it's for someone else.

Either way.. we are meant to reason with each other... to get to the better meanings within scriptures.

1. Given God's omniscient foreknowledge of past, present, and future, one wonders why he would create beings he knew from the beginning would reject his way and end up in the lake of fire. I call these beings, in light of his omniscience THE PRE-DAMNED.

2. Whether we start with our concept of God and compare him to it or vice versa, both side are still our concept. "Starting with God" still involves a human concept of God as one is using ones own mind to create the concept.

3. Our sin nature being expunged is in a sense a lobotomy.

Although I have the same sensitivities as Jason and somewhat defend him, I staunchly agree with you on the "God cannot lie" part.

God does not have to lie. He has all the fallen angels for that. Here is his lying spirit reference:

1 Kings 22:20-23 "And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

Remember Job? All the Lord has to do is back off His protection and let the devil have his way. Either way, at God's hand is our entire fate.