It needed saying.. and I don't mind being thought a loon.

This was originally in another thread.. where the poster was losing sight of God's goodness... but, it seems there is a need for this to be read by others as well.

I want to first tell you... no one on this earth knows all of what God will share with us one day... but because your peace and your love for God are at risk... I will share some of what I have come to know because I don't think you'll hear it from anyone else here.

You will find that most people here will disagree with what I say... but I hope you will pray about my words to find out whether they are true -- relying on God to tell you if they are true... and not the nay-sayers. Let the Holy Spirit testify to you of whether I speak truth or not.

First... children are born into this world innocent.
There is no sense in being restored or redeemed to your original state if your original state is sinful. Children are born without sin... and anyone that doesn't know the difference between right and wrong is also in a state of innocence -- God will not condemn them. And, anyone that does things outside of their own control... God will not condemn.

As for hell... hell is not what most people think it is. If hell is a place of fire and grotesque tortures... would a God that even loves His enemies send people there?.. for eternity? Is He that spiteful? --no. Hell is simply this...

A place that God reserved for all those that chose not to be with Him, through their actions -- and made that choice knowingly. The choice has to be made with a knowledge of what they are turning away from... because without knowledge... we are still in a state of innocence... and God doesn't punish the innocent.

...but for those very few that knowingly choose to be without God... He will not force them to be with Him... and, the last loving face they will see will be Jesus. ...

John 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

But in order to sin.. you must first have knowledge of good and evil... and choose evil.

On a side note.. that is why the eating of the apple is a transgression, but not a sin. Because without the knowledge they gained from biting the apple from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... they were still in a state of innocence.

So, very few people will actually go to hell... and the burning they will feel is regret... after having looked upon the face of love... and then going to the place they chose for themselves... where God isn't... and where love isn't.

Now... is there a way to escape hell? Would God send workers there to minister to people if there weren't a way? ... when people hear the truth enough... and begin to regret ever wronging another... I believe that is the beginning of being worthy of redemption.

So, now there must be an explanation of heaven... because I just shared that most people will be there.

Every moment of your life you are either loving people, loving yourself, or doing both... and both is what you are supposed to be doing. No matter what state we are created in... we are here to act (sometimed upon others) and to be acted upon (sometimes by others). How others act toward/upon you is a test that they are either passing or failing... but if all people were created with a perfect mind and perfect temperament... life would not be a test for any of us.

Your condition and mine and anyone else's are tools that allow us to either build patience, understanding, and love for others... or contempt, impatience, and hostility... depending on what path our hearts choose.

If we choose love... then, whether we know it or not... and whether we accept it or not...we have chosen Jesus. If we love... Jesus is our companion... and we chose Him through our actions.

And because we chose Him... He will not cast us somewhere that He won't be -- that place is reserved for those who didn't love... where their hearts will burn with regret.

So, how is it that someone can get into heaven without accepting the knowledge of Jesus? I'll come back to that one.

1st Cor:15 tells us about the resurrection. It tells us that there are glories that we may be resurrected to -- 1Cor 15:40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

It is to Heaven that we will be resurrected.

So what is the purpose of three heavens? And are there three heavens? 2Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

If there is a third heaven... There must be a first and second heaven.

So there are three heavens... Why?

The first heaven is for those who loved... Who chose Christ to be there companion in life... but would not accept the fullness of his truth when they heard it in their grave... Those who loved but did not consciously believe in Jesus... even in death. THAT... is how you get into heaven without consciously choosing Jesus... by loving people (sub-consciously choosing Jesus).

The third heaven is for those who chose Christ to be their companion... And accepted the fullness of Christ when they heard it in the grave... But, with greater knowledge comes greater responsibility, and so, having heard the knowledge and accepted it, they must Covenant to live by it... Even after this life. This heaven is where God, the Father, is... and will teach you all of what you were promised in 2Peter 1:2 "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

"Everything pertaining to life and godliness"... Only the best teacher could teach us that.

And the second (middle) heaven is for those people who would attain the third heaven... But would not live in accordance with their Covenant.

This is the plan that allows each of us to go to the place where we are most meant to be... Where we will find others like ourselves... And we will always have the ability to progress.

Whether we learn enough to be worthy of the chance to come back and strive for the next higher heaven is a concept I sometimes ponder.

Some would say no... Because we are to have only one life... But in truth death is an illusion. There is only life... and endless opportunities for us to learn.

God did not create anyone with the intent that they would be damned... He gave them choice ... to be with Him or not. Those who chose to not be with God, He will not force to be with Him.

I know that God loves us all. And He hopes that we will find patience and love for others... and ourselves... as we prepare to make that choice to either be with Him or not.

The plan is one of choice and happiness and growth... we end up where we choose... and where we are ready to be... God does nothing except love us... give us opportunities to turn to Him... and hope we choose Him... because He wants us to choose to be where He is -- but He won't force us.

I hope this made sense... and I hope it brings you peace.

...and you can know that the unpleasant images you imagine... od people suffering for eternity in a torture pit of God's creation... are the creation of a warped version of truth... but not truth at all.

I say these things out of love... even though they will bring the full force of the wisdom of man upon me by anonymous "religious" fanatics.

All I know is to remain teachable... because after this life we will be offered much more than we've ever heard. God is good and His plan is spectacular and perfect.

Remain teachable my friends... no one here has it all figured out...

There is no need to pray about something that is clearly contrary to Scripture.

Romans 3:10 "There is none righteous; not even one"; "not even one" encompasses "not even one child".

Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"; "all" includes children.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die..."; "all" includes children.

Psalm 96:13 "He will judge the world in righteousness And the peoples in His faithfulness." Have no fear; when God judges, His judgment will be righteous, and all of us will recognize and acknowledge its righteousness.

Didn't read the long rant, just a short snippet of the first part. All I hear is another person convinced they're right and everyone who disagrees is wrong and doesn't get it. So you're here to set everyone straight. People like you are a dine a dozen on this site, so you'll fit right in. Just stick to the BDF where most of them dwell.

If scripture is your authority.. and not the Spirit of truth... that can enter into your heart...

Then, you probably believe God puts lying spirits in the mouths of prophets (1Kings 22:23)..

Or God has evil minions that he has do His evil bidding (1Samuel 16:14-16, 23.. 18:10)

Or God gives up on people.. but only the really bad one's that He's lost all hope for... and sends them a lie to ensure their damnation (2Thes 2:10-12).

I guess you've got God figured out better than I do... here I didn't think He was a liar, deceiver, master of evil, or one to give up on people.

No... you can't accept these pearls.. your hands are too full of the pride you have in the knowledge you've always been fed.

You probably think there are some people Jesus might even be able to honestly say "I never knew you" to... even though He knows the hairs on every head...

Can you imagine God meeting someone He doesn't know? Would He say, "Who made you? I don't know you... and have no recollection of you?

... no.

Jason, you make good points. The Bible is an English translation (from what I understand) from Greek and Hebrew texts. Interpretation, I think, is subjective, but there is that "qualifier" that the English translation is inspired by God. But following Hume, the existence of eternal hell begs the question of whether 'good' as understood by man applies to God. An omnibenevolent God would, by logic, not want pain to forever exist, even for punitive reasons, and would want a universe or infinity devoid of evil and pain. Having a corner of the universe where unfortunate people who, by psychological natural selection failed to believe in the existence of and worship God are tormented for ever and ever seems to belie true omnibenevolence.

I think it comes down to whether or not one vehemently accepts the English translation of the Bible or whether or not one uses logic, while believing in God and having faith that Christ died for mankind and rose three days later, to discern the logical inconsistencies present in the English translation. Those believing in the infallibility of the English translation will typically respond with the threat of Hell for those who don't "follow along".

You only believe in a god ( and i use lower cap g for a reason) that conforms to what you think a god should be.. So anything you read in His inspired Word that you don't agree with must be removed from your personal god.. So you end up only believing in a god that conforms to your judgement and this in effect you are the god you have created for yourself..

Anyone who says """If scripture is your authority.. and not the Spirit of truth """ does not know the Spirit of truth because the words of the Holy Bible are the revealed Word of the Spirit of truth.. The Holy Spirit..

John 6: KJV
63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Until you come to accept the entire Word of God with meekness you will not be following the LORD..

So you actually claim the words from a previous post ... you believe God is a liar.. a master of evil... one to give up on people...

But you might just say it with caps?... "Master of evil"?

You are one of the "religious fanatics" I spoke of... and if you defend your version of God's truth (the verses I previously listed)... you defend a lie.. and reject truth...

And since Jesus is the truth... you reject him... and you are the one spoken of in 2Thes 2... that allowed yourself to be fooled... but in honesty... it was not God the sent you a stronger delusion... He only allowed that delusion to be... so we could be tested.

...but one day you'll hear the truth from a way better teacher than myself.. and even if you don't accept it (and are unteachable) that's okay... Jesus will still love you.. and that is simply where you are at.

It really isn't a reason to dispute about it.

Everyone will be where they most want to be. And if you prove unteachable (because you think you already know the truth)... then you just won't go to the "classroom."

...and that's okay.

Your thread title was wrong Jason. I don't think you are a loon. I think you are taking the easy way. You subscribe to something commonly known as "easy-believe-ism" that says a good loving God would never send anybody to hell. This is actually partly true, as God does not send people to hell. God made a way out of going there. But there is a hell and the Bible is very specific about who will wind up there.

Also children have a nature of sin in them. The Bible is very specific about this too.

But you already said you are throwing out all the parts of the Bible that you don't like...

Yeah, when people start throwing out chunks of the Bible just because it doesn't fit with their concept of God, there's no real point in talking to them any more. But I don't think you're a loon. I just think you're lazy.

many want to create a God they want, instead of learning about the God that created them,

We say things about people that have other views than us... and that is our choice... whether it's good or bad is something else.

You don't have to believe that God never delves into lies.. or is the master of evil spirits... you choose to... and that is your choice...

I am not here to debate you... I just had to deliver a message.

Besides their is no point in debating... only the Holy Spirit can convert.. and touch a heart.

I hope my "laziness" doesn't get in the way of you praying about the scriptures I cited. After all, there is no harm in praying... or are you so sure of your own understanding that you don't need to pray?

No response necessary... thank you for your efforts to be right.

But the "inspired" word of God is the English translation of the Bible, translated from Greek and Hebrew ancient text. There may, for all we know, be stuff that went "missing in translation" (no pun intended).

The hard part regardless is the concept of Hell, and who goes there and why. I'm a Universalist who adheres to 1 Timothy 2:4: "This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". If this is what God wants, this is what he will get, in the fullness of all time. Thus Hell, if it exists, is temporary. I cannot rule out the religious doctrine of Annihilism, which denies the concept of eternal Hell and holds that the unrepentant dead will be burned in Gehenna but will be burnt completely, that is, taken completely out of existence rather than burn forever without relief (Indeed, the only mention in the Bible of beings being tormented in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever is the Devil, the False Prophet, and the demons. It mentions humans in the Final Judgment being thrown in with them, but it is not explicit whether humans are tormented forever or just plain destroyed. The eternal torment of humans, therefore, is merely an inference from the earlier mention of Satan and his angels being eternally tormented. Take your pick).

But if one believes in Hell (forever tomented Hell), does God see fit to throw someone there because they believe something contrary to scripture? Because of one sin committed at a birthday party at the age of 22 that the person forgot about and forgot to say "God forgive me" for as they lie on their deathbed at age 87? For never hearing the name Jesus Christ from birth to death as they rhythmically dance in some tribe on an island in the Indian Ocean?

In the end, if there is something amiss in the translation of the ancient texts that turned up in the English one we believe is the infallible Word of God, it may be that God is talking to those who question it by rational and moral logic when it comes to the subject of Hell.

You admit you're a universalist, but I won't address that here other than to say it doesn't stand up to careful examination.

However, I must take issue with your opening statement here, because it is ignorant codswollop. Not calling you ignorant, just your statement.

The English translations of Scripture are, by necessity, interpretations. Scripture was not inspired in English, and neither Greek nor Hebrew translate perfectly into English; few languages do translate perfectly into any others. It appears that you know little about how we got the text of the Bible in any language, and especially English. I recommend that you do some homework on this issue; James White has written several relevant books on the subject. I'm sure there are others as well.

Yes, the Scripture was not inspired in English and that neither Greek nor Hebrew translate perfectly into English. It does not matter whether or not I know little about how we got the text of the Bible in any language: that is profusely besides the point. The point is in the first sentence of your second paragraph and the first sentence of this reply.

That being said, the real bone of contention in terms of the Bible, English or not, being the inspired Word of God is when it comes to the concept of Hell. Hell is the endgame of anyone who fails to do, think, or feel what it takes to be qualified by God for Heaven. That's pretty much it. People fear for their loved ones or for any human that is not an irredeemable psychopath due to this possible endgame, as people fear that what God considers muster is something outside human reason or capability. For example, people in heaven will require lobotomy in order not to sin again while in Heaven, and no matter how we outwardly behave while in this body on earth, our minds and feelings in terms of lust, anger, envy, etc. still exist, even if we deny that they do to observers or outwardly behave as if they are not within us. If God requires absolute purity of these inner psychological states, every person that has ever been born is up the creek without a paddle. So it is no wonder that some will question Scripture in regard to God's perception of who is condemned to hell (i.e. someone who's literally empathetic, loving, the literal salt of the earth but doesn't believe in God or accept the infallibility of the English translation of the Bible) and who does not.

That's one perspective, and not a biblically-sound one. Another perspective is that God is holy, and that we as his creations (clay to His Potter), we are utterly subject to His will. He loves us and wants "all to be saved". However, because of the sin of Adam, we are unholy, having chosen to rebel against Him. As such He is completely justified in leaving us to the consequence of our sin: death. In His mercy He has made a way for us to escape eternal judgment: through faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice.

When we start with our concepts of goodness, justice, mercy, and all the rest, and compare God to them, we might conclude that He doesn't measure up. When we start with God and compare our concepts to Him, we recognize that it is our concepts that don't measure up.

And I agree... that doesn't depend on the translation of Scripture.

As to our ability to sin "in heaven", I think you're missing the part where our sin nature will be expunged. We won't have the irresistible proclivity to sin anymore.

Question: Shouldn't this thread be in the BDF? I mean I know this forum is miscellaneous, so anything goes, but... really, we already have a place for people to debate stuff and insult each other. It's called the Bible Discussion Forum.

You are delcaring God the Master of evil..

I have faith in the Word of God.. You have no faith / trust in the Word of God..

Jesus is the Word of God and i truly accept and have Faith in Him.

The ones spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 are the ones who are going to be rejecting the ""love of the truth, by which they might be saved""
2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

It is so telling that you are so lacking that you would seek to use 2 Thessalonians 2 to attack me when you have already declared the very same scripture to be false.. If it is false then it is not valid to be used at all..

Of course i believe it is true indeed God will give those who reject His saving loving Gospel truth over to deception and delusions so that they will perish,, eternally so,, Just like Pharaoh who was was sent delusions because he rejected the will of God in the times of the Exodus,, God used him to fulfill Gods purpose to show his great signs and wrath upon Egypt..

God is awesome and wisdom and power.. And before you die you better believe it.. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and He will resist the proud but give grace to the humble.. The Humble accept His Words because they have faith to trust in His will even when it is hard to understand and accept.. But people who are proud only accept what they agree with.. They have no faith at all..

One day you will know the truth indeed and you will be ashamed greatly.. May you repent of your attacks upon the Holy Words of God and may you be forgiven..

Well said.. This is so true..

If you can tell me why 1Kings 22:23 is correct without using the argument "because it's in the Bible, and the Bible is infallible, " I will take back everything I said...

Do you accept this challenge...?

Sounds like you have it all figured out.