Warning: Controversial:

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May 9, 2010
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#1
Warning: Controversial: If the word of God be true for Believers in Christ and we proclaim "God is a deliverer, yet many continue to practice various sins, can a person really be set free from the snare of sin or is it only certain sins one can truly be delivered from? (These questions were prompted by an article I read on an controversial topic in the church).
 
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sloppy3

Guest
#2
Thats a good question. If someone commits murder and then is saved because he accepts Jesus as his saviour, is he without sin and goes to heaven?
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#3
Thats a good question. If someone commits murder and then is saved because he accepts Jesus as his saviour, is he without sin and goes to heaven?
I'm not so sure we can seperate wetness from water.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#5
Thats meaningless if I may say.
Nope. Think about it in terms of trying to seperate sin from the one who commits it.

That's all we're attempting to do. Seperate property from the object, concept, etc.
 
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DiscipleWilliam

Guest
#6
Warning: Controversial: If the word of God be true for Believers in Christ and we proclaim "God is a deliverer, yet many continue to practice various sins, can a person really be set free from the snare of sin or is it only certain sins one can truly be delivered from? (These questions were prompted by an article I read on an controversial topic in the church).
Greetings,

I would say, yes. We as believers are liberated from the bondage and captivity of sin caused by rebelliousness. Sin had our 'old man' enslaved and "legally" dead due to our outstanding sin debt. As fallen men and women we still sin daily, the difference is that we now have a surety, a mediator that intercedes for us. We can be "legally" declared righteous through Christ and the atonement which is why I would say yes. The reason why we still commit sin- even after the knowledge of Truth- is due to our relationship with Adam and Eve. Our relationship with Adam and Eve however doesn't force us to commit sin, but just changes our view regarding its attractiveness. The sacrifice of Christ was for those who cannot help themselves, and would otherwise be eternally damned.
 
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sloppy3

Guest
#7
Nope. Think about it in terms of trying to seperate sin from the one who commits it.

That's all we're attempting to do. Seperate property from the object, concept, etc.

Spearating sin from the sinner sounds suspiciously like avoiding the need to take responsibility for actions. I know you think this is ok because it is the central tenet of your faith. But I think it is immoral.
 
Aug 18, 2011
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#8
Spearating sin from the sinner sounds suspiciously like avoiding the need to take responsibility for actions. I know you think this is ok because it is the central tenet of your faith. But I think it is immoral.
We as children of God are responsible for our own sins. Every man according to his works. If a man commits murder he is guilty period it is only through the act of being reborn in christ that our sins are nullified. We are not truly reborn until we are reborn in the spirit.
What you seek, if I may say so is earthly condemnation or responsibility for the acts committed against another human. This is why Moses gave us the law to dispense according to what was written.
Jesus said"love thine enemies" and yes it is a very hard concept to swallow but it is necessary if we wish to share in his gift of eternal life.
I understand what your saying is accountability for crimes committed against humanity... pick one
Jesus taught that these crimes against humankind were not just against humankind but against God and the teachings he gave us.
 
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dmdave17

Guest
#9
This is a thorny issue. The quick answer to the original question, I believe, is "yes - God forgives any and every sin through the blood of Jesus Christ". The issue of repetitive sin is a more troublesome problem. It is one thing to say that all believers sin; we do...we are still human beings prone to the same weaknesses we had before we were saved. But being saved is supposed to make us want to not sin any more. In the case of particularly heinous sins, murder for example, I might question whether that person had really been "saved".
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#10
Spearating sin from the sinner sounds suspiciously like avoiding the need to take responsibility for actions. I know you think this is ok because it is the central tenet of your faith. But I think it is immoral.
No, I wasn't not argueing for the seperation of wetness from water. I thought maybe that was clear. Hence, my saying, "I'm not so sure we can seperate wetness from water".
 
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Ramon

Guest
#11
Warning: Controversial: If the word of God be true for Believers in Christ and we proclaim "God is a deliverer, yet many continue to practice various sins, can a person really be set free from the snare of sin or is it only certain sins one can truly be delivered from? (These questions were prompted by an article I read on an controversial topic in the church).
It only gets complicated when someone CHOOSES to ignore the answer.

If you were incarcerated and I took off your cuffs, you are free. But if you put the cuffs back on after I take them off, then you are not free. A hypocrite says they are free, but they are still in cuffs. It is straight out denial and ignorance.

Peter made it simple too:

2Pet 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pet 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

2Pet 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pet 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

May Jesus bless you.
 
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sloppy3

Guest
#12
No, I wasn't not argueing for the seperation of wetness from water. I thought maybe that was clear. Hence, my saying, "I'm not so sure we can seperate wetness from water".

No sir, you have not been clear at all. Please explain exactly what you mean.
 
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sloppy3

Guest
#13
....We as children of God are responsible for our own sins. Every man according to his works. If a man commits murder he is guilty period it is only through the act of being reborn in christ that our sins are nullified. We are not truly reborn until we are reborn in the spirit.

What you seek, if I may say so is earthly condemnation or responsibility for the acts committed against another human. This is why Moses gave us the law to dispense according to what was written.
Jesus said"love thine enemies" and yes it is a very hard concept to swallow but it is necessary if we wish to share in his gift of eternal life.
Thanks for this. I accept that this is more or less the central theme of Christianity but, in my view, it is immoral.

Your first statement is contradictory. One the one hand you say a murderer is guilty, period. Then you say that by being reborn, the sins are nullified. So it isn't "period" at all. Is it?

I dont seek an "earthly condemnation" as you say. What I am trying to pooint out is that people should be responsible for their actions, to society and especially to their victims. Your doctrine of salvation does not acheive this.

The idea that a crime/sin against another person is only a matter between the sinner and God, ignoring the victim is not moral. This is the mind-set that Catholic child-raping priests adopt to block out the heinous nature of their actions.

It is no coincidence that the term "scapegoating" is synonymous with this idea. It was the practice of pre-christian tribes to ceremonially load the sins of their tribe onto a goat and send it out into the desert to die, thus, they believed, taking their sins with them. Hey presto, the early Christians adopted the same idea (being only able to express ideas in terms of nomadic, tribal shepherds). The doctrine of salvation is the same - load your sins onto Jesus and he will die on your behalf.

You conveniently ignore the fact that this is not a socially responsible thing to do. If you had a speeding ticket, I could pay the fine for you. If you have been especially nice to me, I might even take you place in the electric chair but that is only to take your punishement for you. You cannot, in such circumstances relieve yourself of the fact that you commited the crime and that the responsibility will allways rest with you.
 
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Ramon

Guest
#14
Thanks for this. I accept that this is more or less the central theme of Christianity but, in my view, it is immoral.

Your first statement is contradictory. One the one hand you say a murderer is guilty, period. Then you say that by being reborn, the sins are nullified. So it isn't "period" at all. Is it?

I dont seek an "earthly condemnation" as you say. What I am trying to pooint out is that people should be responsible for their actions, to society and especially to their victims. Your doctrine of salvation does not acheive this.

The idea that a crime/sin against another person is only a matter between the sinner and God, ignoring the victim is not moral. This is the mind-set that Catholic child-raping priests adopt to block out the heinous nature of their actions.

It is no coincidence that the term "scapegoating" is synonymous with this idea. It was the practice of pre-christian tribes to ceremonially load the sins of their tribe onto a goat and send it out into the desert to die, thus, they believed, taking their sins with them. Hey presto, the early Christians adopted the same idea (being only able to express ideas in terms of nomadic, tribal shepherds). The doctrine of salvation is the same - load your sins onto Jesus and he will die on your behalf.

You conveniently ignore the fact that this is not a socially responsible thing to do. If you had a speeding ticket, I could pay the fine for you. If you have been especially nice to me, I might even take you place in the electric chair but that is only to take your punishement for you. You cannot, in such circumstances relieve yourself of the fact that you commited the crime and that the responsibility will allways rest with you.
My friend, you see it very well. I am thankful that you are honest. You speak more clearly about what many Christians ignore.

God had in no way ignored the victim. And neither is sin just between God and the sinner, but most every sin is committed against a another person, sometimes even in the name of God or Jesus.

It is just fantastic to hear this coming from you. Now, let's talk about ACTUAL salvation.

Salvation works much like how it might work in an actual court setting. If I walked into a court guilty of a crime, the law requires the crime be punished under the law. (One issue with the laws of men is that the majority rules, ask me about it. lol.)

Anyhow, he is guilty, and he must be judged. But the salvation of God has to do with MERCY, not excuse. We are not excused from sin at all. But God is so full of mercy that he can forgive us of sin. Now, when I say, ''YOU ARE NOT FREE TO CONTINUE IN SIN!!'' This is where I become a liar and a blasphemer to many Christians.

When you hear them say, ''We are not under the law,'' this is an attempt, like you say, to excuse themselves to continue in sin. In the same way, that man who stands in the court might say that, because the judge was merciful, and let him off that time, he is now free to go commit the same thing again. (This is, I believe, what you see as the double standard.)

I am glad that you see clearly enough not to be fooled by this, but we all can be taught to see a little clearer than we see already. But sometimes, if we get a little too wise to the truth, we always get attacked the most.

May Jesus bless you.

p.s Oh, and by the way, God doesn't force anyone to take him up on his mercy (pride is a terrible thing), you have to choose to accept it. You have to humble yourself.
 
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sloppy3

Guest
#15
Now, when I say, ''YOU ARE NOT FREE TO CONTINUE IN SIN!!'' This is where I become a liar and a blasphemer to many Christians.
Your statement supports my point.
 
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sloppy3

Guest
#16
p.s Oh, and by the way, God doesn't force anyone to take him up on his mercy (pride is a terrible thing), you have to choose to accept it. You have to humble yourself.

This is a new one on me. I'd say that your theology does indeed teach that the offer is one that you cannot refuse (unless you want to go to hell, that is)

Pride is a terrible thing as you say, but so is jealousy.....

2nd Commandment :-

".....For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me,......."

That sounds like an offer that can't be refused
 
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Ramon

Guest
#17
This is a new one on me. I'd say that your theology does indeed teach that the offer is one that you cannot refuse (unless you want to go to hell, that is)

Pride is a terrible thing as you say, but so is jealousy.....

2nd Commandment :-

".....For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me,......."

That sounds like an offer that can't be refused
I don't have a theology, and I don't teach anything. I tell what I hear.

But everyone has a right to refuse. You have a right to refuse, and I have a right to refuse. This is the sad part. This is what made grace not feel so good. I did not rejoice when I understood his grace, I was saddened. Why?

The Lord himself made it clear to me, and very clear that many people have rejected are are, in fact in hell. Then I thought of the MANY people who are there, and the many ages, and nationalities. I thought of people I knew that might be there. And it became heavy. And I said to the Lord, ''WHY!! WHY ME!! I could have just as soon been dead, but why did you save me and not all the people who are in hell now?''

He let me know that everyone has an opportunity to repent and be saved. And what is worse, just as he said, some people will not believe even though one rises from the dead to tell them (they might just call him a liar.)

God is not so complicated. Neither are his commands. If everyone could keep them, then nothing would be wrong in the world at all. They are good, and no one can deny it, unless they want to be completely irrational.

May Jesus bless you.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#18
This is a new one on me. I'd say that your theology does indeed teach that the offer is one that you cannot refuse (unless you want to go to hell, that is)

Pride is a terrible thing as you say, but so is jealousy.....

2nd Commandment :-

".....For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me,......."

That sounds like an offer that can't be refused
mmm you must have missed these passages....it has to do with the whole NEW covenant thing Jesus enacted...

Ezekiel 18

A False Proverb Refuted

1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:


‘ The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right
;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”