Charismatic pro or con

What I know is not religious addiction. Many of the people I pray with insist they are not religious. They just want to follow Jesus. It is certainly not addiction. I had and still have a complete college teaching career, and everyone I know is either still working at a normal job or is retired and still spends time with family, and lives quite a normal life. If we are to measure addiction by time spent or money appropriated, certainly most pastors will be found to be guilty of religious addiction, and most pastors of traditional churches are not charismatic.

The Bible is not pushed aside at all by those I know. Most have read the Bible cover to cover at least a few times, most own extensive commentaries and consult them often. We often engage in debates about what Scripture does and does not say. I do not know of a single case, where Scripture is not openly consulted, passages are compared, and the results prayed over.

Your third paragraph raises a couple interesting points: Define the "Church" and its "common confession". A large part of the church is now charismatic. And how do you reconcile quoting the church fathers with your own being "sola scriptura" except to quote those Scriptures in the paragraph, bringing us back to where is the real "church"?

Your second source is too big to deal with unless you highlight specific portions.

Your first source is partially requoted here in the post. Two more observations. While it is true I distrust human reason without proof from Scripture, I certainlty don't trust everything I hear in my head. It too must be tested by Scripture. Second, I know of almost no one who was disappointed by the Charismatic renewal who is currently unchurched. I know of many, many non-charismatics disappointed by church who are now unchurched. My experience is exactly the opposite of the author linked to.

Last night we were praying over a fifteen year old girl, and she broke out in "holy laughter". Now this was in a living room, and everyone was close friends. The laughter lasted 20 seconds. No one got carried away.

I was once fired from a job for refusing to get slain. If it happens once in a while, that's fine. But not 200 out of 200 people, because that's the "man's ministry". I recognized it as hypnosis, and pronounced it accordingly. I was fired, and the parish that was going to lead the diocese never led anything. I am also told no one has ever been hurt falling whether caught or not. No one is a pretty big word, but from what I've seen, it's likely true. People are quite relaxed when they fall, and there's very little harm can come to them in that state.

Your mention that you went through things recovering is most enlightening. Your objections are personal experience, then, and not just theology you are convinced of? "By their fruits you will know them" is a very important Scripture for me, and I see for you as well.

I have 10 minutes right now. Let me start commenting on the book's charts, and resume later.

1-9. No one ever suggested I be passive. Passivity is only recommended to see what God might want to do. You then check everything against Scripture. I consider a "blank mind" hypnosis, and quite dangerous. I teach Rom 12:2, that the Spirit seeks to renew your MIND, so you may totally transformed.

2-5-7-11. I have posted in these threads that if you feel God, that's nice, but the real test is what happens when you stop feeling Him. I stand against the word "puppet" every time I hear anyone praying that way. "Not your puppet, God, but your friend and channel of your grace."

3-6-10. I teach that the fruit of the spirit is the ultimate test. Is the person more loving, more peaceful, more joyful, etc. In particular, it's not about happiness, but about joy. Sincere following of the Spirit does cause suffering: They hate Him when He was on earth, they will hate Him in you as well.

4-6. I can't even identify with an experience called Christ that is not Christ. Either the actions of the person become more Christ-like, or they do not.

12. Our average time of "waiting" is maybe 1 minute. Hardly seance timing. God is usually quicker than that, if we want Him.

More to follow later.

14. This is how I have seen it (left side). In fact, in most cases, the answers are make you say like "you mean I have to do what? I don't know if I can!" But then there's this feeling of joy, that if you do it, somehow the world will be better, more loving, more complete.

15. This is the only one I disagree with so far. Prophecy sometimes comes as a few words in your head. I had an interesting experience about three weeks ago. Normally, when I am to give a prophecy, I get a sentence or two in my head. Sometimes, I get the whole thing. At this time, all I had was an idea I should start talking. I said to God, you always give me a sentence to start. I'm not sure this is you". He said, "you're just among friends, and they are all mature Christians, risk it". So I said, "but what if they trust me and it's not your words? ; I am older and following you longer than most of them". He responded by giving me the first two words. I said, "that's just two words". He said "are you going trust me or what?" So I started with the two words, and got several more lines. Several people confirmed that it was the Lord speaking. Sometimes He illuminates the mind to understand the will. But sometimes, words need to occur. Compare proposing to a woman to marry her: You can feel love and want to be with her, but until someone speaks up, nothing happens. For a group to be united on God's plan, someone has to speak up what they think it is.

16. I don't think I ever heard the voice of God loud. Even when He needs instant cooperation, He doesn't shout. One time, I was stepping off a curb crossing an alley, and out of nowhere a wind pushed me back up. A second later a car came whizzing down the alley. Just like Elijah; it's the still, small voice that matters.

17-18-19. Words from God, visions, etc. I was taught are due to our weakness. They are always consistent with Scripture, appear reasonable, and are confirmed by outside circumstances Like many years ago, God spoke to me clearly to make a certain phone call, and to enter a certain music ministry. I made the call, the ministry was open, and I ended up being the music director of one of the largest praise teams ever assembled. 300 young men gave up their own life-plans and entered the ministry as a result of that phone call.

20. I mentioned this in the earlier post under puppets.

21. God's power does sometimes exhaust the body. Like a missionary who spends his life combing Africa and gets salvations may die early of malaria. We need to differentiate between spritual power and spiritual leadings to use physical power. Early in my days in this, when I prayed over people for healing, I learned that sometimes I would not be ready for what I would know when I laid on hands. I learned I could "jump" to another level of faith, where there was no power drain at all, because it's just letting Jesus do it all. (That sensible power leaves is proved by Luke 8:46) There is a teaching of "pleading the blood" as it's called. Some people say that you should prepare before laying on hands, to protect yourself and those around you. The theory is that a spirit can jump to someone who has not. I don't teach that; I just say learn to trust jesus all the way, since it's His ministry to heal and not yours. Going back to the fifteen year old girl I mentioned last night. A couple weeks ago, she had prayed for someone and felt herself attacked. The prophet from the group simply told her what to do, and she was fine. This is an important distinction: the Spirit speaks to your spirit instantaneously. The mind must be renewed, and this takes time to search the Scriptures and to seek God. The body follows the mind but needs practice. An analog is learning to play the prelude for the service: the organist perceives in his spirit what mood must be set in the church. His mind processes the printed music to determine phrasing, dynamics, etc., so the mood can be created. Then his fingers go over the movements on the keys, sometimes many times, until his mind has solved the mechanics, and his spirit is satisfied.

22-23. The only influence I know of God is gentle guidance. My wife used to say "Jesus doesn't drive His sheep, He leads them".

I think I've covered enough to give the idea to whoever is reading.

To get back to the rest of that post, I think it is important that you shared that the right column of these charts is what you experienced. I have experienced the left column. Is there really that big a difference between people who have joined a church of one or another denomination only to learn after a few months that there is some fundamental disagreement with how they care to worship? Or maybe how they should baptize? Or how headship should operate? Those people simply go to a different church. Let it happen 3 or 4 times, and the person becomes a church hopper. Let it happen 10 times, and the person stops going to church altogether. Granted, being emotionally harmed is way worse than being harmed by theological differences. But is it any worse than being hired by a church and not paid several thousand dollars because of an internal disagreement about who was to write the check? Or any worse than being told you can't receive communion because you are "baptized wrong". Whether it is or not, the person who is hurt soon learns to express disgust for whatever theology that they feel was the underlying cause of the problem. And thus the number of denominations grows, as intellectual statements appear to cover emotional pain.

In a previous post you mentioned being "possesed by Kundalini spirits". I think that was your words. My biggest argument for the reason these things ought to exist is that God must raise up a standard against the power of Satan manifested in the New Age and in the growth of witchcraft. Usually when people use that term, it suggests an openness to these things at one time. I think that all of us need to be careful that we don't close a door to something good that God might have for us just because we are afraid that it might be related to something bad we have experienced.

hi ken....
just a quick note for now to keep this going:
re the book - the left column i agree with and say yes to (mostly, though not all).
the right column i experienced as counterfeit and identify it as such (mostly but not all, since i didn't experience every single thing).

no, i didn't say i was possessed - i was saved at that time.
i was harrassed and deceived. without question a spirit(s) were transferred to me. in an instant - loud noises; paralysis; blinding light ...then laughing and 'drunkenness' and loss of control. slurring and others writhing and making animal noises.

you know, that before i stepped forward and agreed to let the fellow lay hands on me; the Holy Spirit was sounding the alarm - NO!....but i did it anyway, knowing it was wrong.

what was surprising was how "good" it all felt for days and weeks afterwards...it wasn't until a few things happened, and the Holy Spirit prompted me to actually REASON with Him for the first time in a month or so, that my skin crawled and i blushed with shame as He revealed all that was happening. i literally felt like a drunken prostitute.

as soon as He shone the light in my mind, i repented in agony and shame - that's when the "good" feelings - the spirit(s) turned malevolent.
that's enough for now.

zone

anyway.....i'm not going to go into all that personally here again....it's personal and rather involved, if you are interested pm me. no need though....you get the idea.
just to remind you that i'm coming at this with real experience.
before and after.

zone.

Then apparently the only disagreement we might have on the book is if our "mostly but not all" does not match up number by number. That is my take on the book as well.

It is amazing to me, that this person who laid hands on you was not identified as someone doing this years before. I have had and given many teachings on "soul power" and how it is a counterfeit of God's power. You are describing something that can only be transmitted by "soul power", and no one should be doing that in the name of God. It's no different from the spiritualist church, where ministers are actually trained to do stage magic, pretending it's God, to "build faith", but it's just a disguise for the occult.

It was not your fault - it was done to you, just like if he knifed you and you were in the hospital. You say the Holy Spirit was sounding the alarm "no!". How is that different from what I have been describing as revelation from God? You clearly recognized it as the Holy Spirit.

Once my wife and I were ministering to the sister of the head devil worshipper of a state (I will not say which to protect confidence). I think she drugged us to "help us relax" as we had some interesting adventures the night after. We did not get possessed, but it took us a few days for prayer to restore our peace with God. I think it was probably something like what you experienced.

hi Ken.
well, i live in a small town, and i didn't know anything about denominations. it took me about a year to discover every building with a steeple isn't christian (i actually went to an LDS for a day with no clue what it was).
didn't do the JW cuz we'd heard things about them as kids, and their buildings are creepy.

i was looking for a church. i'd been to a tiny baptist church which i loved - until the Purpose Driven crew moved in and retired the pastor; remodeled; built a stage and stuff (200G in landscaping etc)....i left there when one of the new pastors gave me Warren's packet and said something like "this is new! we're going to be teaching from this - take it home and see what you think."

..i stayed up all night reading and referencing the material, there wasn't much in the way of apologetics on it, and i had limited internet). suffice it so say i knew by the following week it wasn't from the Lord. when i said so, i got the right boot of disfellowship.

.....this TO group was a tiny place in an alley. an acquaintance recommended i go. it seemed okay but ppl were running around with flags and stuff. lots of rock type music. disorder. a guy touching ppl on the forehead. it seemed wrong, but i was getting pretty discourgaed without teaching and fellowship. nobody said anything about the roots of the group. i didn't know anyone.

then there was a night-time gathering at someone's home - that's where that happened.

~

the thing is, why would anyone announce anything? after it happened to me, i thought it was great! it was all sensual. all about feelings. so sensual i'm embarrassed by it. but it was like a drug (i used to be an addict - i know)....the spirit(s) kept ramping up the thrills. i felt like i had arrived. i could even touch other ppl and they would melt like wax and start laughing.

the thing that tunred it around was (i've said this before here, i'll keep it brief) - one day i noticed my Bible on the shelf, it was covered in dust! (i had previously stuidied day and night, 7 days a week). when i saw it, i was afraid - OF IT.

*prayer and fasting began*

zone.

Ken i've never ever denied the Spirit is God and is active and alive and working in every regenerated believer.
what i completely reject are the offices of prophet and apostle etc.

i knew that BEFORE this happened. my position on that was already settled.
love you
zone

Soul power is an interesting subject. Consider starting a thread on it if God leads you. I believe that many believers can profit from it if it is done with discretion and wisdom.

Just put it in Bible study. Hope to see you there. In fact, I hope you'll help with the wisdom and discretion part.

hi Ken
it's not that it was simliar to that, that's exactly what it was - occult. which is precisely what i have been saying here.

very real and very intelligent spirits. extremely convincing.

while it was turning around by Holy Spirit, and i fasted and prayed for 3 weeks (i lost 30 pounds); they got as i said malevolent and taunting. the "lifting up" as if walking on air turned into heavy burdens like bags of sand. i knew i was gaining the victory though and that The Lord was doing it.

i can't explain here in a few posts what i was taught (using all my faculties and the scriptures, as well as research materials) during that time. uber-intense. that's why i'm not sorry.

this is what i'm warning about. and nothing anyone can say (including a certain member who has a chip on his shoulder) will ever stop me from telling what i know.

love zone.

Why would anyone want to stop you? We're separating God's truth from counterfeits here. Alerting people to one set of words being used two ways. Like the false apostles Paul had to contend with.

hi Ken.
is this still an accurate summary?
love zone

Summary of what? A summary of why I would expect God to be doing something of the type, yes. A summary of how He does it, no.

Compare musical talent - a former night-club musician who took lots of drugs and did a lot of sex, might, upon salvation, gradually be trained by God as a worship leader. God gave him the talent, he misused it until he was saved. God gave the world a new openness to certain realities, they misuse it. As the musician had to learn a whole new way of thinking about music (which I have seen take years sometimes), we may have to learn a whole new way to think about these realities. God's ways are high above our ways. But the use of the terms suggests openness, just as ability to play an instrument suggests ability God could use in the leading of worship.

this is a cool response
i agree in a broad (philosophical) sense.
and according to reason.

however, i still have to inquire about this part:

"God gave the world a new openness to certain realities, they misuse it. "

what certain realities?
God gave His Only Son.

for me that's a full stop, pretty much.

the Gospel can not be misused - it can only be taught or or not taught.
or taught in corrupted forms, which makes it another gospel.

my thing is we don't need any new realities, we need to return to the Gospel alone.

love you Ken,
zone

~

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 8:37
Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

Not new realities, a new openness to certain realities. The realities in question are miracles, prophecy, the authority of the individual believer, for example. For many centuries, most people did not know about these things. Today, we think about them a lot. None are new, all are in the gospels and the other parts of the NT, and Jesus walked in them all. People used to read them, and pass over them, as not relevant to their lives. Starting maybe 150 years ago, people started thinking about them more. For the last 70 or so years, we see growth in the number of people talking about the charismatic renewal, New Age, witchcraft, healings. Most of the talk is not what the Gospel says about these things though, and that's what I mean by misused. Sometimes, you're right, the Gospel itself is misused, creating a false religion.

My personal opinion is that the increase in interest that started about 150 years ago is the work of God. I think He was upset that the RC church started limiting believers' authority back in 400 AD, and it took Him this long to fix the problem. Luther was the first door He opened, but each open door led to a new corridor with new doors that needed to be checked into one at a time.

okay Ken
back on track again here then.
so were are most definitely looking at renewal.

can you show me a single passage that states unequivocally that there will be a Latter Rain/renewal, or any of that?

God made no secret of His Plan for Pentecost. He must have said there would be a suppression and renewal of the Apostolic era miracles and powers. i do not see it now, nor have i ever

i do see, though where Acts 2 has been hijacked and an imitation placed at the end of a gap. this is my position.
if Peter said this that...then that was that. where else does it say anything about a restart?

zone

You won't find a 'restart'.
Because you won't find and end to the gifts of the Spirit.
It never ended.
The book of Acts never ended.
The only book in the new testament without a formal summation or a farewell.

As I have said, I do not believe God intended a renewal or even a restoration. That is the appearance to those of us who were raised in a time when these things were suppressed. From God's point of view, He never stopped giving things like prophecy, tongues, apostleship, miracles, etc., we stopped receiving them. When we were open to receiving them again, they appeared new to us. That this happens is easily proved from, say, Eccl. 1:11, I Sam. 3:1. As far as applications to our day, Eph. 4:13 says that prophecy is to last until the body is perfected, and Rev. 11:3 proves there will be at least two prophets just before Jesus comes back. That there will be those who will suppress tongues is implied by I Cor. 14:39.

hi Ken.
i know you say we stopped receiving them. and again, i deny that God can be stopped. He can not be blocked by anything. everything works exactly the way He wills it.

eph. says until completion (perfection), maturity. it's this word perfect again.

Jude said "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints."

Jude 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

we agreed early on that church history as a whole does not show a continuation.
the only thing we have that suggests it are accounts of mystics and ecstatics. and much of that is from the Catholic church. we have mystics today as well.

as for suppressing tongues; that was about them, then. and the tongues were known gentile languages. The Lord was preparing for this:

Mark 16:15
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation."

"proclaim the gospel" < this is done through the languages we have. ppl have to be able to understand what is said. the ppl in the age of Pentecost and the apostolic era took off for the nations, with all the languages of the gentiles (nations). they preached the gospel, the wonderful works of God.

a reversal of the confusion/confounding of man's plan to build the tower.
a reversal of the slowing down of humanity's ability to communicate and gather together in rebellion.....the institution of varying of human languages at Babel (by God).

i guess it's Glossolalia we should look at.

love zone

~

I heard the tongues of angels and the tongues of men
And it wasn't any difference to me

BOB DYLAN - DIGNITY