-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K
Okay, there really should be a summary, shouldn't there?
A few days ago Stillwaters posted a thread intended to be used for those who have opinions about cessationism, dispensationalism, and related isms. Zone and I got to talking, and she asked me to post a separate thread, so we would not be monopolizing that thread. She got I think three likes to her request in a matter of a couple hours.
Zone is a cessationist. I walk in many of what are called the "gifts of the Spirit". (We have agreed not to call them gifts. They are currently nameless.) These include tongues, prophecy, healing, etc. Many people in the other thread have posted videos showing that these behaviors are being used in ways that prove the users are not following God. Zone claims that no such real things exist, and the videos prove it. I have used them for most of a lifetime, and I do not use them anything like in the videos. I also know many people who do the same. To all of us, the videos are clearly the use of a counterfeit of some kind. I think Zone is hoping to investigate what I and those I know are doing, and determine is they truly are different, Scriptural, desirable, whatever. We have also agreed that both of us want everything good God wishes us to have, and nothing Satan wants to give us.
I titled the thread from the movement where I was introduced to the Scriptural backing of these behaviors, the "charismatic renewal" of the 1970's.
Zone, please have a look at this and make sure I told the right things about your position.
A few days ago Stillwaters posted a thread intended to be used for those who have opinions about cessationism, dispensationalism, and related isms. Zone and I got to talking, and she asked me to post a separate thread, so we would not be monopolizing that thread. She got I think three likes to her request in a matter of a couple hours.
Zone is a cessationist. I walk in many of what are called the "gifts of the Spirit". (We have agreed not to call them gifts. They are currently nameless.) These include tongues, prophecy, healing, etc. Many people in the other thread have posted videos showing that these behaviors are being used in ways that prove the users are not following God. Zone claims that no such real things exist, and the videos prove it. I have used them for most of a lifetime, and I do not use them anything like in the videos. I also know many people who do the same. To all of us, the videos are clearly the use of a counterfeit of some kind. I think Zone is hoping to investigate what I and those I know are doing, and determine is they truly are different, Scriptural, desirable, whatever. We have also agreed that both of us want everything good God wishes us to have, and nothing Satan wants to give us.
I titled the thread from the movement where I was introduced to the Scriptural backing of these behaviors, the "charismatic renewal" of the 1970's.
Zone, please have a look at this and make sure I told the right things about your position.
Ken!!
thank you
i've only just now seen this.
awesome.
........................
yes, i am a cessationist. that's very true.
here's a basic resource for anyone not familiar with the topic:
Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource <<click
this is only accurate by half:
"Zone claims that no such real things exist, and the videos prove it."
the videos are not the foundation of the cessationist position.
they're supporting evidence that deceiving spirits are working.
this is accurate:
"To all of us, the videos are clearly the use of a counterfeit of some kind."
and this is true:
" I think Zone is hoping to investigate what I and those I know are doing, and determine is they truly are different, Scriptural, desirable, whatever. We have also agreed that both of us want everything good God wishes us to have, and nothing Satan wants to give us."
................................
okay ken!
thanks again, and take it away
love you
zone
thank you
i've only just now seen this.
awesome.
........................
yes, i am a cessationist. that's very true.
here's a basic resource for anyone not familiar with the topic:
Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource <<click
this is only accurate by half:
"Zone claims that no such real things exist, and the videos prove it."
the videos are not the foundation of the cessationist position.
they're supporting evidence that deceiving spirits are working.
this is accurate:
"To all of us, the videos are clearly the use of a counterfeit of some kind."
and this is true:
" I think Zone is hoping to investigate what I and those I know are doing, and determine is they truly are different, Scriptural, desirable, whatever. We have also agreed that both of us want everything good God wishes us to have, and nothing Satan wants to give us."
................................
okay ken!
thanks again, and take it away
love you
zone
R
here are the results i posted in the other thread from my research on the spiritual gifts in post apostolic times...i am reposting here for reference because it is relevant to the topic...
in the early second century AD justin martyr wrote in his 'dialogue with trypho the jew' that healing and tongues and prophecy were common in the christian church...
in the late second century irenaeus...a student of john's student polycarp...wrote in his book 'against heresies' that many in the churches spoke in tongues and received prophecy and performed healings...
in the early third century origen wrote in his book 'against celsus' that the tongues were temporary and that they no longer happened...but he also reported that he was a witness to ongoing prophecy and healings...
in the late third century john chrysostom indicated in his 'homily on 1 corinthians 12' that tongues no longer occurred and admitted that the church's understanding of the nature of tongues had been obscured by the passage of time...chrysostom is also the first to use the term 'cessation'
in the early fourth century the church historian eusebius of caesarea...based on the writings i already mentioned and other reports that we no longer have...concluded in his 'ecclesiastical history' that the tongues had continued only through irenaeus' time...
in the mid fourth century epiphanius of salamis wrote in his anti heretical 'medicine chest' that prophecy was welcomed in the church...he argued against the montanists that the church had not rejected the spiritual gifts but only had denounced the montanists' charisma as not being authentic spiritual gifts...
in the late fourth century augustine wrote in his 'homily on 1 john' that the tongues were for the early church and were no longer present in his time...
in the early fifth century augustine wrote in his 'city of God' that miracles still occurred...but that they were not as widely reported as the earlier miracles...and he described several contemporary healings that he was aware of or even witnessed himself... most of the contemporary healings augustine tells about happened through prayer or through the sacraments...especially baptism... augustine also argued in the same work that although the miracles still happened they were no longer spiritually necessary because 'the whole world' had come to believe the gospel...
although the church fathers were fallible and often uncritical and prone to repeating hearsay...most of these post apostolic testimonies seem to reflect the widespread consensus of 'common knowledge' in the church regarding the gifts in their respective time periods...
from all of these ancient testimonies my conclusion is that the tongues continued into the late second century and then ceased... healings continued at least into the fifth century although by that time they were usually the result of prayer or sacrament...healing by direct command as in the new testament appears to have largely ceased by then... prophecy continued at least into the fourth century and it is not clear whether it ever fully ceased...
because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times
in the early second century AD justin martyr wrote in his 'dialogue with trypho the jew' that healing and tongues and prophecy were common in the christian church...
in the late second century irenaeus...a student of john's student polycarp...wrote in his book 'against heresies' that many in the churches spoke in tongues and received prophecy and performed healings...
in the early third century origen wrote in his book 'against celsus' that the tongues were temporary and that they no longer happened...but he also reported that he was a witness to ongoing prophecy and healings...
in the late third century john chrysostom indicated in his 'homily on 1 corinthians 12' that tongues no longer occurred and admitted that the church's understanding of the nature of tongues had been obscured by the passage of time...chrysostom is also the first to use the term 'cessation'
in the early fourth century the church historian eusebius of caesarea...based on the writings i already mentioned and other reports that we no longer have...concluded in his 'ecclesiastical history' that the tongues had continued only through irenaeus' time...
in the mid fourth century epiphanius of salamis wrote in his anti heretical 'medicine chest' that prophecy was welcomed in the church...he argued against the montanists that the church had not rejected the spiritual gifts but only had denounced the montanists' charisma as not being authentic spiritual gifts...
in the late fourth century augustine wrote in his 'homily on 1 john' that the tongues were for the early church and were no longer present in his time...
in the early fifth century augustine wrote in his 'city of God' that miracles still occurred...but that they were not as widely reported as the earlier miracles...and he described several contemporary healings that he was aware of or even witnessed himself... most of the contemporary healings augustine tells about happened through prayer or through the sacraments...especially baptism... augustine also argued in the same work that although the miracles still happened they were no longer spiritually necessary because 'the whole world' had come to believe the gospel...
although the church fathers were fallible and often uncritical and prone to repeating hearsay...most of these post apostolic testimonies seem to reflect the widespread consensus of 'common knowledge' in the church regarding the gifts in their respective time periods...
from all of these ancient testimonies my conclusion is that the tongues continued into the late second century and then ceased... healings continued at least into the fifth century although by that time they were usually the result of prayer or sacrament...healing by direct command as in the new testament appears to have largely ceased by then... prophecy continued at least into the fourth century and it is not clear whether it ever fully ceased...
because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times
Ken, i have a research project to do - beginning with a 1 1/2 hr video, so i haveta make popcorn to prep tsk.
prolly won't be back until tomorrow.
this is your thread, so i look forward to seeing where we will begin (or rather continue) our discussion.
love in Christ,
zone
~
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints
prolly won't be back until tomorrow.
this is your thread, so i look forward to seeing where we will begin (or rather continue) our discussion.
love in Christ,
zone
~
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints
K
Ken, i have a research project to do - beginning with a 1 1/2 hr video, so i haveta make popcorn to prep tsk.
prolly won't be back until tomorrow.
this is your thread, so i look forward to seeing where we will begin (or rather continue) our discussion.
love in Christ,
zone
~
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints
prolly won't be back until tomorrow.
this is your thread, so i look forward to seeing where we will begin (or rather continue) our discussion.
love in Christ,
zone
~
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints
See my response to Rachel's post just above.
K
Thank you for the thorough reference on the history. You have certainly proven that the cessation of the "gifts" was gradual, and occurred with some sooner than with others.
Origin appears to be the source of the statement "tongues were temporary" (past tense).
Chrystosom's position is simple observation. But it does reflect the fact that one can become confused as to what constitutes authentic tongues. Eusebius was just quoting everyone; he himself says he consulted the other sources.
The opinion on the Montanists expressed by the church fathers certainly prove that a counterfeit use of the gifts is possible.
I think your conclusions are quite correct historically, and serve to highlight that the cessationist position is a matter of collected opinion. Let us also observe another flaw in the "church fathers", that being that it is the Roman Catholic Church which decided whose writings to collect. If we read the Montanist position, for example, would we get another story? Their original writings have been lost. The Roman Catholic Church controlled the Roman government from about 390 on. I am told that armies would destroy churches that disagreed, killing people and burning the buildings to the ground. The Montanists are said (by the writings that were saved) to have done things similar to what is in the videos posted in the first thread, but without their writings, we will never know if those are just an excess in their own group, opposed by their founders.
There is one scripture verse that supports the cessationist position, but clarifies with another: I Cor. 13:8ff. Prophecy and knowledge use katarego, tongues uses the word pauo. The difference is that katarego has a second interpretation of "become worthless or ineffective. both words mean "cease". No time limit is given, but it is in a context of love replacing these things in the long run. Comparsion with Eph. 4:13 suggests that the time anticipated for them to fail is nowhere near close, at least based on what I see of the church. There is no other Scripture to support cessationism, as far as I know.
Note the use of "tongues" in I Cor. 12:28, as the last step in setting new works in the Church. It is possible that the cessation of tongues blocked this last step from occurring after 200 AD, and, after a couple more centuries, blocked the growth of new things to the point where prophecy and wisdom no longer served a purpose. That would explain your chronology in the light of Scripture. If we look at the excesses of the Catholics to maintain discipline, and then the amount of infighting between denominations that characterize Christian history since the Reformation, we must admit that we have not reached the perfection or the love demanded by the verses that support cessationism. God wanting to restore these things as soon as He could find an opening, makes sense. The Scriptural precedent is I Sam 3, where the church had become so corrupt, and hardly anyone remembered how to hear God. The rest of the story is that Samuel's first prophecy was for the closing of that ministry, and its replacement by something new. Could it be that some churches become cessationist because they are afraid of being closed down as was Eli's lineage?
I think the most reasonable position is to be open to whatever God might do, and judge everything by its fruit. That sounds similar to the position you espouse.
Origin appears to be the source of the statement "tongues were temporary" (past tense).
Chrystosom's position is simple observation. But it does reflect the fact that one can become confused as to what constitutes authentic tongues. Eusebius was just quoting everyone; he himself says he consulted the other sources.
The opinion on the Montanists expressed by the church fathers certainly prove that a counterfeit use of the gifts is possible.
I think your conclusions are quite correct historically, and serve to highlight that the cessationist position is a matter of collected opinion. Let us also observe another flaw in the "church fathers", that being that it is the Roman Catholic Church which decided whose writings to collect. If we read the Montanist position, for example, would we get another story? Their original writings have been lost. The Roman Catholic Church controlled the Roman government from about 390 on. I am told that armies would destroy churches that disagreed, killing people and burning the buildings to the ground. The Montanists are said (by the writings that were saved) to have done things similar to what is in the videos posted in the first thread, but without their writings, we will never know if those are just an excess in their own group, opposed by their founders.
There is one scripture verse that supports the cessationist position, but clarifies with another: I Cor. 13:8ff. Prophecy and knowledge use katarego, tongues uses the word pauo. The difference is that katarego has a second interpretation of "become worthless or ineffective. both words mean "cease". No time limit is given, but it is in a context of love replacing these things in the long run. Comparsion with Eph. 4:13 suggests that the time anticipated for them to fail is nowhere near close, at least based on what I see of the church. There is no other Scripture to support cessationism, as far as I know.
Note the use of "tongues" in I Cor. 12:28, as the last step in setting new works in the Church. It is possible that the cessation of tongues blocked this last step from occurring after 200 AD, and, after a couple more centuries, blocked the growth of new things to the point where prophecy and wisdom no longer served a purpose. That would explain your chronology in the light of Scripture. If we look at the excesses of the Catholics to maintain discipline, and then the amount of infighting between denominations that characterize Christian history since the Reformation, we must admit that we have not reached the perfection or the love demanded by the verses that support cessationism. God wanting to restore these things as soon as He could find an opening, makes sense. The Scriptural precedent is I Sam 3, where the church had become so corrupt, and hardly anyone remembered how to hear God. The rest of the story is that Samuel's first prophecy was for the closing of that ministry, and its replacement by something new. Could it be that some churches become cessationist because they are afraid of being closed down as was Eli's lineage?
I think the most reasonable position is to be open to whatever God might do, and judge everything by its fruit. That sounds similar to the position you espouse.
LOL Ken!
okay
if you're having a discussion with rachel, that's cool. i'll leave that alone.
i've done all that church fathers' records stuff. we can refer to what they saw and didn't see, wrote and did not write if we like. and they do make good witnesses.
but it appears you and i already agree that there was a cessation.
that's the starting point for me. so we are considering RENEWAL or LATTER RAIN (etc)
you also say other obscure references mention some things which may or may not have been the genuine gifts in operation. these may or may not be good witnesses.
our theories of the RC suppressing the gifts doesn't come into play for me, since i do not believe anyone, man or angelic host could stop God from continuation if that was His plan.
the Bible only records 3 periods of tremendous and consistent miraculous activity by God - and all 3 were related to His showing of power, which was directly related to what He was saying at the time.
the times of
Moses; Elijah and Elisha; and Jesus the Apostles.
(note: again i say God has not stopped working, nor has He been suppressed, nor that He is suddenly not able or willing to work the same miracles - i am saying He doesn't need to, and His not performing miracles for long periods shows He has His Own plan)
Each time He moved with TRUE MIRACLES (miracles is another term we must define at some point) it was in part to SHOW Himself (for some as a Judge); to confirm His messengers has His authority; and to encourage the people to REMEMBER Him.....His desire that they continue to come to Him IN PRAYER and FAITH.
...........................
can we just jump right in to some of the activities we have today, comparing them with the historical accounts in scriptures?
(reminder and notice - i am a cessationist, and reject unintelligible noises as being the Biblical tongues....if anyone is offended by that, i'm sorry you feel that way).
okay: topic - tongues.
Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit
1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
Peter’s Sermon at Pentecost
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servantsc and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
...........................
QUESTION:
Ken:
were the tongues gifts poured out at Pentecost in Acts 2 known human (gentile) languages or unintelligible noises?
love zone
okay
if you're having a discussion with rachel, that's cool. i'll leave that alone.
i've done all that church fathers' records stuff. we can refer to what they saw and didn't see, wrote and did not write if we like. and they do make good witnesses.
but it appears you and i already agree that there was a cessation.
that's the starting point for me. so we are considering RENEWAL or LATTER RAIN (etc)
you also say other obscure references mention some things which may or may not have been the genuine gifts in operation. these may or may not be good witnesses.
our theories of the RC suppressing the gifts doesn't come into play for me, since i do not believe anyone, man or angelic host could stop God from continuation if that was His plan.
the Bible only records 3 periods of tremendous and consistent miraculous activity by God - and all 3 were related to His showing of power, which was directly related to what He was saying at the time.
the times of
Moses; Elijah and Elisha; and Jesus the Apostles.
(note: again i say God has not stopped working, nor has He been suppressed, nor that He is suddenly not able or willing to work the same miracles - i am saying He doesn't need to, and His not performing miracles for long periods shows He has His Own plan)
Each time He moved with TRUE MIRACLES (miracles is another term we must define at some point) it was in part to SHOW Himself (for some as a Judge); to confirm His messengers has His authority; and to encourage the people to REMEMBER Him.....His desire that they continue to come to Him IN PRAYER and FAITH.
...........................
can we just jump right in to some of the activities we have today, comparing them with the historical accounts in scriptures?
(reminder and notice - i am a cessationist, and reject unintelligible noises as being the Biblical tongues....if anyone is offended by that, i'm sorry you feel that way).
okay: topic - tongues.
Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit
1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
Peter’s Sermon at Pentecost
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servantsc and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
...........................
QUESTION:
Ken:
were the tongues gifts poured out at Pentecost in Acts 2 known human (gentile) languages or unintelligible noises?
love zone
Last edited:
Luke 9
The Transfiguration
28Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. 30And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, 31who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure,b which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. 33And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. 34As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One;c listen to him!” 36And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.
The Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) make pretty good witnesses concerning Jesus
Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself
K
1. Not exactly. I believe the behaviors of tongues, prophecy, miraculous healing, and apostleship disappeared from the churches from 400-1900 or so, because they were suppressed. They continued within the body, although rare, because they were taught they were not supposed to happen. Scripture indicates that they are easy to suppress. After the tongues event of Pentecost, Peter began speaking English; everyone else stopped. The command "Forbid not to speak in tongues" (I Cort. 14:39) indicates it was happening. "The spirit of the prophets in under the prophets control" indicates the prophet can stop at will. If he believes prophecy is no longer possible, you have gone a long way to making him stop. God's plan continued, but outside the church. Catholics believe that many saints worked miracles. Many catholics acknowledge the St. Malachy prophecy. At different times in history, Catholics followed Nostradamus, or the high magick of Enochian witchcraft. The point is, these things all happened outside the church, the "faithful" were taught that mass and communion was all that mattered, so they had little reason to try. The mechanism to suppress was in place, historically documentable, and working.
2. Catholics actually believe that God works the same number of miracles today as He ever did (I was taught growing up that this is necessary matter of faith. If your statement is correct, then allow me observe that there was several hundred years between any two of these, when there were fewer miracles. Just suppose God wished to repeat that behavior now, and restore those things in large numbers? You've given a Scriptural precedent for relative cessation and restoration.
3. Since 1950, attendance at church has gone from 51% to 16% in America, and is down to less than 2% in some parts of Europe, I am told. Isn't that enough reason for Him to want to be remembered again?
First, it is likely that Pentecost was gobblygook to the speakers and understood by members of the crowd. First, many people thought they were drunk. Surely, even if we don't speak the languages around us, we can recognize them and would not think their speakers are drunk. Second, I know several people who have prayed in tongues today, and one or two people in the meeting who spoke an unusual language recognized it as perfect speech in that language, and stated that it was praise of God. Third, it doesn't need to be the tongues of Pentecost to be Scriptural; it can be either that or tongues of Corinthians. Fourth, there are at least 13 languages listed and 12 people speaking. The recognition had to be in the minds of the hearers.
By experience, modern tongues has all the same problems Paul confronted in Corinthians, and all the same good points. It is most likely they are the same phenomenon.
2. Catholics actually believe that God works the same number of miracles today as He ever did (I was taught growing up that this is necessary matter of faith. If your statement is correct, then allow me observe that there was several hundred years between any two of these, when there were fewer miracles. Just suppose God wished to repeat that behavior now, and restore those things in large numbers? You've given a Scriptural precedent for relative cessation and restoration.
3. Since 1950, attendance at church has gone from 51% to 16% in America, and is down to less than 2% in some parts of Europe, I am told. Isn't that enough reason for Him to want to be remembered again?
First, it is likely that Pentecost was gobblygook to the speakers and understood by members of the crowd. First, many people thought they were drunk. Surely, even if we don't speak the languages around us, we can recognize them and would not think their speakers are drunk. Second, I know several people who have prayed in tongues today, and one or two people in the meeting who spoke an unusual language recognized it as perfect speech in that language, and stated that it was praise of God. Third, it doesn't need to be the tongues of Pentecost to be Scriptural; it can be either that or tongues of Corinthians. Fourth, there are at least 13 languages listed and 12 people speaking. The recognition had to be in the minds of the hearers.
By experience, modern tongues has all the same problems Paul confronted in Corinthians, and all the same good points. It is most likely they are the same phenomenon.
R
here are the main proof texts that i know of for 'unknown language' and 'prayer language' tongues...
mark 16:17..."These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;"
romans 8:26..."In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;"
1 corinthians 13:1..."If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."
1 corinthians 14:2..."For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."
addressing these verses in order to define tongues biblically may help with this discussion...
mark 16:17..."These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;"
romans 8:26..."In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;"
1 corinthians 13:1..."If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."
1 corinthians 14:2..."For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."
addressing these verses in order to define tongues biblically may help with this discussion...
hi Ken
i disagree with virtually everything above.
and your interpretation of what happened at Pentecost is interesting
Peter spoke in english? where'd you get that idea?
any way....there's a lot here, but i can cover each point, and will do so as soon as i can.
perhaps tomorrow.
i mean, Ken....come on
"The spirit of the prophets in under the prophets control" indicates the prophet can stop at will."
of course the prophet could control himself. that's one reason paul wrote the corrective letter.
And the spirits of the prophets, etc. - Let no one interrupt another; and let all be ready to prefer others before themselves; and let each feel a spirit of subjection to his brethren. God grants no ungovernable gifts.
Clarke
~
The immediate reference of the passage is to those who are called "prophets" in the New Testament: and the interpretation should be confined to them.
It is not improbable, however, that the same thing was true of the prophets of the Old Testament; and that it is really true as a general declaration of all the prophets whom God has inspired, that they had control over their own minds, and could speak or be silent at pleasure. In this the spirit of true inspiration differed essentially from the views of the pagan, who regarded themselves as driven on by a wild, controlling influence, that compelled them to speak even when they were unconscious of what they said. Universally, in the pagan world, the priests and priestesses supposed or feigned that they were under an influence which was incontrollable; which took away their powers of self-command, and which made them the mere organs or unconscious instruments of communicating the will of the gods. The Scripture account of inspiration is, however, a very different thing. In whatever way the mind was influenced, or whatever was the mode in which the truth was conveyed, yet it was not such as to destroy the conscious powers of free agency, nor such as to destroy the individuality of the inspired person, or to annihilate what was special in his mode of thinking, his style, or his customary manner of expression.
Barnes'
i'll come back to all this.......
.....................
could we discuss tongues?
was the gift poured out at Pentecost known gentile languages which the hearers heard in their dialects? or unintelligible noises?
as for "some" thinking they were drunk - was that prophesied to be said/thought? yes.
gentile languages was a judgment on ISRAEL.
God predicted long before He would do just what he did.
tongues are a SIGN for unbelievers << ancient israel.
the gospel went forth in known gentile languages from jerusalem, by the believing jews who were at Pentecost and heard "the wonderful works of God"
love zone.
i disagree with virtually everything above.
and your interpretation of what happened at Pentecost is interesting
Peter spoke in english? where'd you get that idea?
any way....there's a lot here, but i can cover each point, and will do so as soon as i can.
perhaps tomorrow.
i mean, Ken....come on
"The spirit of the prophets in under the prophets control" indicates the prophet can stop at will."
of course the prophet could control himself. that's one reason paul wrote the corrective letter.
And the spirits of the prophets, etc. - Let no one interrupt another; and let all be ready to prefer others before themselves; and let each feel a spirit of subjection to his brethren. God grants no ungovernable gifts.
Clarke
~
The immediate reference of the passage is to those who are called "prophets" in the New Testament: and the interpretation should be confined to them.
It is not improbable, however, that the same thing was true of the prophets of the Old Testament; and that it is really true as a general declaration of all the prophets whom God has inspired, that they had control over their own minds, and could speak or be silent at pleasure. In this the spirit of true inspiration differed essentially from the views of the pagan, who regarded themselves as driven on by a wild, controlling influence, that compelled them to speak even when they were unconscious of what they said. Universally, in the pagan world, the priests and priestesses supposed or feigned that they were under an influence which was incontrollable; which took away their powers of self-command, and which made them the mere organs or unconscious instruments of communicating the will of the gods. The Scripture account of inspiration is, however, a very different thing. In whatever way the mind was influenced, or whatever was the mode in which the truth was conveyed, yet it was not such as to destroy the conscious powers of free agency, nor such as to destroy the individuality of the inspired person, or to annihilate what was special in his mode of thinking, his style, or his customary manner of expression.
Barnes'
i'll come back to all this.......
.....................
could we discuss tongues?
was the gift poured out at Pentecost known gentile languages which the hearers heard in their dialects? or unintelligible noises?
as for "some" thinking they were drunk - was that prophesied to be said/thought? yes.
gentile languages was a judgment on ISRAEL.
God predicted long before He would do just what he did.
tongues are a SIGN for unbelievers << ancient israel.
the gospel went forth in known gentile languages from jerusalem, by the believing jews who were at Pentecost and heard "the wonderful works of God"
love zone.
Last edited:
K
hi Ken
i disagree with virtually everything above.
and your interpretation of what happened at Pentecost is interesting
Peter spoke in english? where'd you get that idea?
any way....there's a lot here, but i can cover each point, and will do so as soon as i can.
perhaps tomorrow.
i mean, Ken....come on
"The spirit of the prophets in under the prophets control" indicates the prophet can stop at will."
of course the prophet could control himself. that's one reason paul wrote the corrective letter.
And the spirits of the prophets, etc. - Let no one interrupt another; and let all be ready to prefer others before themselves; and let each feel a spirit of subjection to his brethren. God grants no ungovernable gifts.
Clarke
~
The immediate reference of the passage is to those who are called "prophets" in the New Testament: and the interpretation should be confined to them.
It is not improbable, however, that the same thing was true of the prophets of the Old Testament; and that it is really true as a general declaration of all the prophets whom God has inspired, that they had control over their own minds, and could speak or be silent at pleasure. In this the spirit of true inspiration differed essentially from the views of the pagan, who regarded themselves as driven on by a wild, controlling influence, that compelled them to speak even when they were unconscious of what they said. Universally, in the pagan world, the priests and priestesses supposed or feigned that they were under an influence which was incontrollable; which took away their powers of self-command, and which made them the mere organs or unconscious instruments of communicating the will of the gods. The Scripture account of inspiration is, however, a very different thing. In whatever way the mind was influenced, or whatever was the mode in which the truth was conveyed, yet it was not such as to destroy the conscious powers of free agency, nor such as to destroy the individuality of the inspired person, or to annihilate what was special in his mode of thinking, his style, or his customary manner of expression.
Barnes'
i'll come back to all this.......
.....................
could we discuss tongues?
was the gift poured out at Pentecost known gentile languages which the hearers heard in their dialects? or unintelligible noises?
as for "some" thinking they were drunk - was that prophesied to be said/thought? yes.
gentile languages was a judgment on ISRAEL.
God predicted long before He would do just what he did.
tongues are a SIGN for unbelievers << ancient israel.
the gospel went forth in known gentile languages from jerusalem, by the believing jews who were at Pentecost and heard "the wonderful works of God"
love zone.
i disagree with virtually everything above.
and your interpretation of what happened at Pentecost is interesting
Peter spoke in english? where'd you get that idea?
any way....there's a lot here, but i can cover each point, and will do so as soon as i can.
perhaps tomorrow.
i mean, Ken....come on
"The spirit of the prophets in under the prophets control" indicates the prophet can stop at will."
of course the prophet could control himself. that's one reason paul wrote the corrective letter.
And the spirits of the prophets, etc. - Let no one interrupt another; and let all be ready to prefer others before themselves; and let each feel a spirit of subjection to his brethren. God grants no ungovernable gifts.
Clarke
~
The immediate reference of the passage is to those who are called "prophets" in the New Testament: and the interpretation should be confined to them.
It is not improbable, however, that the same thing was true of the prophets of the Old Testament; and that it is really true as a general declaration of all the prophets whom God has inspired, that they had control over their own minds, and could speak or be silent at pleasure. In this the spirit of true inspiration differed essentially from the views of the pagan, who regarded themselves as driven on by a wild, controlling influence, that compelled them to speak even when they were unconscious of what they said. Universally, in the pagan world, the priests and priestesses supposed or feigned that they were under an influence which was incontrollable; which took away their powers of self-command, and which made them the mere organs or unconscious instruments of communicating the will of the gods. The Scripture account of inspiration is, however, a very different thing. In whatever way the mind was influenced, or whatever was the mode in which the truth was conveyed, yet it was not such as to destroy the conscious powers of free agency, nor such as to destroy the individuality of the inspired person, or to annihilate what was special in his mode of thinking, his style, or his customary manner of expression.
Barnes'
i'll come back to all this.......
.....................
could we discuss tongues?
was the gift poured out at Pentecost known gentile languages which the hearers heard in their dialects? or unintelligible noises?
as for "some" thinking they were drunk - was that prophesied to be said/thought? yes.
gentile languages was a judgment on ISRAEL.
God predicted long before He would do just what he did.
tongues are a SIGN for unbelievers << ancient israel.
the gospel went forth in known gentile languages from jerusalem, by the believing jews who were at Pentecost and heard "the wonderful works of God"
love zone.
I found a Scripture we need to consider: Mark 6:5 states Jesus' miraculous abilities were severely restricted by lack of faith. It is a precedent for what I claim happened from 400AD on. The restriction to "just a few healings" is what history showed happened. This theory would say that it took 400 years of Reformation to rebuild peoples' faith enough for the miracles to return. I also noted from your observation that miracles occurred in three big events (Exodus, Elijah, Jesus and the apostles), that each event was about two generations long (Moses/Joshua; Elijah/Elsha; Jesus though John's time), and that they were separated first by 500 years, then by 1000 years. If there is a third such event, one would expect two generations long after 2000 years.
My point is that because prophets CAN stop, if a church convinced them to stop, they would stop. History shows that churches like at Corinth met twice on Sunday, once for the meeting at which the gifts was used (copying the synagogue meetings Paul was taught to run as a trained scholar of the Law), and later in the afternoon for Eucharist. That's why I Cor. 11:34, "let them eat at home." They had time for lunch first. By 100 AD, people were complaining about the quality of Eucharistic prayers, since not everyone who offered them did well, though some did them in prophecy. Bishops wrote prayers that superseded the improvised (prophetic or not) ones, and prophecy for those prayers was no longer permitted, as authority gained ground. As the Empire declined, the emphasis was taken away from the morning meeting, and the evening meeting became the Catholic "mass", first the priority, then all that was left, by the time of the Middle Ages' monasteries. The control of prophecy at the Eucharist became the standard for all official church meetings. It is the "mass" Luther copied, and most of Protestantism copied Luther more or less. That is the exact mechanism by which the gifts were suppressed.
Note the order in I Cor. 13:8. First prophecy becomes of no use (100AD), then tongues fail (200AD), finally wisdom becomes of no use, and people start wondering where all the gifts went. All of these statements apply only to the Mass, which is why the gifts continued until later dates. As long as the older meetings were still held, the gifts were there. Gradually, collapse of the Empire made education harder to achieve, and the knowledge of Scripture each individual Jew enjoyed that made the synagogue meetings possible caused their gradual collapse. This is also why non-denom churches no longer use the traditional Protestant service order. The gifts were restored (if they were) at a prayer meeting, Catholic charismatics added the prayer meeting to their mass responsibilities, based on the old synagogue system, and non-denom churches were invented largely by Catholics thrown out of their church because of their desire to be involved in ministry. The Catholics resented their zeal, as they took up most of the ministries in the church, because they volunteered, whereas non-charismatics mostly did not.
I only used the statement "under the prophet's control" for NT prophecy. That's why I gave you the expansion of the history above. There were prophets in Israel who attempted to use this trance state, cutting themselves and dancing wildly, etc. They were around for sometime, before God fixed it. I think the reference is in Ezekiel.
I'm posting to like three threads right now that have spun off the first. I don't remember if I posted this here:
The tongues of Pentecost were unintelligible noises to the speakers, but intelligible to many of those who heard. They were intended as a miracle to draw the crowd, and prove it was God doing it. The evidence is that: 1. The 12 apostles were speaking more than 13 languages; 2. that many thought they were drunk (surely, everyone can recognize the languages spoken by those around them - they all came to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the feasts), 3: that I am aware of several instances where modern tongues were recognized by speakers of rare, but regularly used languages, and testified after the fact that the words were praise of God or had knowledge of things personal to the hearers in their own native language; 4: that no contrary mention is made of the fact in I Cor. 12-14, where 14: 6,14,19,23 make it clear that the tongues are normally not understood.
Yes, people thinking they were drunk fulfils prophecy, but that does not change what the words sound like to make the prophecy be fulfilled. Yes, Gentile languages are part of Israel's judgement, but it does not change the fact that they were there. Yes, tongues as a sign for believers applies in the first case to Israel, but Paul's quote of it applies to Corinth, a cosmopolitan Greek city, where pagans could wander in as well, and 14:23 says such would think they are "mad".
We also need to account for the use of tongues in 12:28, where they are listed as the last step in the foundation of the church. This is often interpreted as the gospel translated to other languages of men. But consider the fact that after every move of God, our language becomes richer. Without Jesus, would we ever have words like grace, salvation, Eucharist? Without Palestrina and Bach, would we have words like anthem, choral prolude, etc.? Surely when God was making His plans, there were heavenly words for these things, and these words now are spoken on earth. That's an application of tongues as "languages of angels and men". I can pray today for things I have no words for, that God will make available to the church 20 years from now. I have already seen words such as "praise and worship", and "anointing" enter the church as technical music terms just in my lifetime, partially through my own efforts following God in music ministry.
Love, Ken
hi Ken.
this is an amazing post, and i really want to do the best i can addressing each point.
this is all fascinating!
i confess i was up nearly all night, and must get some rest right now. but this is what i will come back to.
once again, i'm completely enamored by your friendliness, openness to dialogue, and respect your commitment concerning your own beliefs and practices.
i'll be back
love in Jesus
zone
this is an amazing post, and i really want to do the best i can addressing each point.
this is all fascinating!
i confess i was up nearly all night, and must get some rest right now. but this is what i will come back to.
once again, i'm completely enamored by your friendliness, openness to dialogue, and respect your commitment concerning your own beliefs and practices.
i'll be back
love in Jesus
zone
K
I'll give you a little history. I was raised Catholic, and I grew up believing in miracles, because of all the saints. I got into this by discovering I had "gifts", and there was no training and the only acceptance was in the occult. In late 1966, a group of Catholic college students found "baptism in the Spirit" in the Bible, and went to a denominational Pentecostal church to ask for it. They felt different after, and took several months talking about the experience among themselves. Soon, they were sharing with whoever would listen. Not 10 years earlier, the pope had prayed for a "new move of the Holy Spirit", and lot of people felt this was it. The people who had the experience felt so joyful, they started expressing it, especially at the new "guitar masses" the liturgical renewal had brought in. This was too much for the others, who did not have the experience, so the new group started holding prayer meetings, where they could sing as loud as they wanted, read the Bible to each other, etc. It wasn't long before they realized that the Pentecostal churches expected tongues, prophecy, healing, etc., so they tried. Here's a key point: no one ever wanted anything except God's will. No one knew for sure if the gifts were authentic, they just tried what they thought they saw in the Bible. After months of reading and asking questions, I joined the movement, and got "saved" and "baptized in the Spirit" in 1972.
There was a problem: the Pope had prayed, the liturgical renewal opened the door, but the leadership of RC was still cessationist. A period of about 6 years followed when the rank and file catholics had to convince the leadership they were doing something authentic. This is a second key point: The RC may be wrong on theology, but they have some of the best formally-educated theologians and pastors of any denomination. The rank and file convinced the leadership. The lay leadership founded a Christian community (like in Acts) at Ann Arbor, Michigan, and published for the world. So the theology was published, and we all read it. That means, I have seen pretty much all the Scriptures, church Fathers, current events, etc., simply because this is what had to be if the renewal was to survive. And survive it did. The old law, dating from before 1000AD, that "all tongues are to be assumed demonic" was replaced by the new law that Catholics could pray the new way if they so chose.
In 1975, a theological think-tank issued an opinion that if the (liturgical) renewal was to continue, Catholics would have to start living by sacrificial love. The rank and file rejected the challenge, and began throwing out every lay leader and priest and nun who was charismatic, as they were the ones with the joyful music that was inspiring people to risk going farther with God in love. By 1981, the leaders had taken the prayer meetings and formed a new brand of protestantism, the non-denom charismatic church. I was one of these forced to leave, but I remained catholic until 1983 (my wife and I were both told by God never to belong to a denomination again ca. 1986).
The renewal structure split into 4 groups: 1. Many prayer meetings continued, but lost almost all the gifts. Today, several RC churches have "charismatic prayer groups", but they are a bare shadow, with only the most "milk" prophecy and teachings". 2. Many prayer meetings remained in the CC, but became apostate, following a Mary apparition in Medugorje, Yugoslavia. 3. There are many non-denom churches and prayer meetings that are serious (almost all non-Catholic now), though some lately are becoming non-charismatic to attract more people, as group 4 causes problems. Of course, Catholic as a viable source of anything Christian, has pretty much failed now, and pastors who have never been Catholic open such churches and groups regularly since about 1990. 4. To attract people, several of these pastors in #3 have started "worldwide" ministries in their churches (as internet now allows), and this is the source of the videos we saw in the other thread. When they follow God, fine, but many of them do not.
My wife and I were both of group 3, and I remember many times we consciously decided to reject attending groups in parts 1,2 and 4. When God opened up our ministry in 1987, we both were catapulted into a level of revival pretty much unmatched in the western world, since the great awakenings, and it was clearly charismatic, as the remaining Catholics worked with the new Protestants. This is why you can't shake my certainty that what we are doing is correct, and also why I am so open. We (you, me and everyone reading this) are the Body of Christ; nothing will happen until we perceive ourselves as one, and accept whatever authentic gifts God has given each of us, whether they are in I Cor. 12-14 or not. I mean also to include gifts of Scriptural insight, music, administration, evangelization, even ideas for chat-websites. I don't care what you think of the gifts, mine are here for you and anyone else. You are responsible not to me, but to God, if you refuse something He is offering, but I will respect your choice either way. I will answer any question I can, so we can better share. After all, you may be called to another part of the Body altogether than am I, so you will see different Scriptures as more important. We cannot "fill the earth" if we are all standing in the same place.
Again, let me state that everything I have come through was tested in the fire of Scripture, church fathers, church history, church administration, and experience, by people who wanted nothing other than to do what God wanted for them. It has stood the test of time for 45 years, and is still working as far as I can tell. 700 prophets of Baal do not invalidate one Elijah, and a million counterfeits on you-tube do not invalidate a faithful remnant.
See you tomorrow morning. I'm working with a new pastor (actually apostle, tonight) who's part of that remnant. He's the kind of guy God makes give away $1000 he doesn't have and then gives him $1500 more one day before the bill is due. (It's worked dozens of times so far.)
There was a problem: the Pope had prayed, the liturgical renewal opened the door, but the leadership of RC was still cessationist. A period of about 6 years followed when the rank and file catholics had to convince the leadership they were doing something authentic. This is a second key point: The RC may be wrong on theology, but they have some of the best formally-educated theologians and pastors of any denomination. The rank and file convinced the leadership. The lay leadership founded a Christian community (like in Acts) at Ann Arbor, Michigan, and published for the world. So the theology was published, and we all read it. That means, I have seen pretty much all the Scriptures, church Fathers, current events, etc., simply because this is what had to be if the renewal was to survive. And survive it did. The old law, dating from before 1000AD, that "all tongues are to be assumed demonic" was replaced by the new law that Catholics could pray the new way if they so chose.
In 1975, a theological think-tank issued an opinion that if the (liturgical) renewal was to continue, Catholics would have to start living by sacrificial love. The rank and file rejected the challenge, and began throwing out every lay leader and priest and nun who was charismatic, as they were the ones with the joyful music that was inspiring people to risk going farther with God in love. By 1981, the leaders had taken the prayer meetings and formed a new brand of protestantism, the non-denom charismatic church. I was one of these forced to leave, but I remained catholic until 1983 (my wife and I were both told by God never to belong to a denomination again ca. 1986).
The renewal structure split into 4 groups: 1. Many prayer meetings continued, but lost almost all the gifts. Today, several RC churches have "charismatic prayer groups", but they are a bare shadow, with only the most "milk" prophecy and teachings". 2. Many prayer meetings remained in the CC, but became apostate, following a Mary apparition in Medugorje, Yugoslavia. 3. There are many non-denom churches and prayer meetings that are serious (almost all non-Catholic now), though some lately are becoming non-charismatic to attract more people, as group 4 causes problems. Of course, Catholic as a viable source of anything Christian, has pretty much failed now, and pastors who have never been Catholic open such churches and groups regularly since about 1990. 4. To attract people, several of these pastors in #3 have started "worldwide" ministries in their churches (as internet now allows), and this is the source of the videos we saw in the other thread. When they follow God, fine, but many of them do not.
My wife and I were both of group 3, and I remember many times we consciously decided to reject attending groups in parts 1,2 and 4. When God opened up our ministry in 1987, we both were catapulted into a level of revival pretty much unmatched in the western world, since the great awakenings, and it was clearly charismatic, as the remaining Catholics worked with the new Protestants. This is why you can't shake my certainty that what we are doing is correct, and also why I am so open. We (you, me and everyone reading this) are the Body of Christ; nothing will happen until we perceive ourselves as one, and accept whatever authentic gifts God has given each of us, whether they are in I Cor. 12-14 or not. I mean also to include gifts of Scriptural insight, music, administration, evangelization, even ideas for chat-websites. I don't care what you think of the gifts, mine are here for you and anyone else. You are responsible not to me, but to God, if you refuse something He is offering, but I will respect your choice either way. I will answer any question I can, so we can better share. After all, you may be called to another part of the Body altogether than am I, so you will see different Scriptures as more important. We cannot "fill the earth" if we are all standing in the same place.
Again, let me state that everything I have come through was tested in the fire of Scripture, church fathers, church history, church administration, and experience, by people who wanted nothing other than to do what God wanted for them. It has stood the test of time for 45 years, and is still working as far as I can tell. 700 prophets of Baal do not invalidate one Elijah, and a million counterfeits on you-tube do not invalidate a faithful remnant.
See you tomorrow morning. I'm working with a new pastor (actually apostle, tonight) who's part of that remnant. He's the kind of guy God makes give away $1000 he doesn't have and then gives him $1500 more one day before the bill is due. (It's worked dozens of times so far.)
Last edited by a moderator:
Ken,
thank you so much for the background. this will be helpful, in that i can dispense with the generalities and perhaps address your particular history and experience (though of course it would be from across the gulf between us).
even though i think it's vitually all counterfeit - NOT THE LOVE, KEN (again, honesty and full disclosure), it's very encouraging to talk to someone who isn't going to get all bent out of shape.
i really like the detailed post above.
i think i'll take the time to go back into my files and approach this from the catholic charismatic renewal. it's cool that you went right to the papacy and the catholic renewal.
i have studied that. i want to do a parallel look at the 'renewal' across the board between denoms at the time as well as nonchristian movements happening right at the same time. i can also go a little further back to certain mystics who spelled out what was coming, and even gave it a few names which will be helpful.
since much of your heart's desire is for ecumenism (which i am not surprisingly opposed to without the foundational and unifying essentials of the christian faith as we find in the doctrine* of Jesus and the apostles), i suppose i could bring forward some of the other groups involved in the ecumenism you're describing.
*of course we know "doctrine" just means teaching.
i'll reply in portions to your two posts above, perhaps combining the parts i think relate directly to any of the issues i have (there's those pesky "issues" again)
love zone
thank you so much for the background. this will be helpful, in that i can dispense with the generalities and perhaps address your particular history and experience (though of course it would be from across the gulf between us).
even though i think it's vitually all counterfeit - NOT THE LOVE, KEN (again, honesty and full disclosure), it's very encouraging to talk to someone who isn't going to get all bent out of shape.
i really like the detailed post above.
i think i'll take the time to go back into my files and approach this from the catholic charismatic renewal. it's cool that you went right to the papacy and the catholic renewal.
i have studied that. i want to do a parallel look at the 'renewal' across the board between denoms at the time as well as nonchristian movements happening right at the same time. i can also go a little further back to certain mystics who spelled out what was coming, and even gave it a few names which will be helpful.
since much of your heart's desire is for ecumenism (which i am not surprisingly opposed to without the foundational and unifying essentials of the christian faith as we find in the doctrine* of Jesus and the apostles), i suppose i could bring forward some of the other groups involved in the ecumenism you're describing.
*of course we know "doctrine" just means teaching.
i'll reply in portions to your two posts above, perhaps combining the parts i think relate directly to any of the issues i have (there's those pesky "issues" again
)love zone
Last edited:
hi Ken.
i'm trying to fire up the brain cells on this one
some i haven't used in awhile.
i'll post from my older files and add some other things (pre-catholic renewal mystics - Jane Ward Leade etc/montanism, and so on).
there may not be any way around eventually bringing up names of NAR guys (old and new). there are some things we can discover about where these guys meet - and who they meet with. i have to pray about how far to go with that.
the following is not my writing, but sums up my position (i may not say it exactly this way, but it's close).
so my thesis will be somewhat like this (emphasis mine):
"Religious Addiction
What we are really dealing with in our Charismatic friends is religious addiction. It is every bit as real and as damaging as any other addiction. And like most addicts, only those who are brought low enough to see the truth finally seek help, or give up hope. It is only when the drink or the drug or the pleasure fails to deliver as promised — over and over again — that the addict is finally prepared to listen to reason. When a soul is seduced by the empty promises of Charismaticism and reason is dismissed as a hindrance, the grip of this heresy tightens incredibly. One trapped in its hold seldom is prepared to reemploy long-abandoned reason until real drought and famine have set in. A Charismatic has to want help before he or she can accept it. As long as they remain content in Pentecostal delusion and satisfied with the ear-tickling, soul-thrilling “high” it conveys, they will not hear our pleas to return to what they consider to be the bondage of “cold, dead orthodoxy.”...
The Reformation Revisited
At a time centuries ago when the Bible was not available to most people, the gospel was buried in Roman Catholic malpractice, superstition, and corruption. So it is today in the Charismatic movement. The Bible is pushed aside except as a prop for “proof texting” popular teachings and for lending credibility to some “prophetic word.” The truth is obscured for the sake of keeping the sheep in bondage to the influence of corrupt wolves and hirelings who care not for the sheep, but for themselves (Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23). Modern Charismaticism is exactly like Roman Catholicism was in the Middle Ages; steeped in unbiblical superstitions, false doctrines, and control over the flock.
The solution today is exactly the same as it was back then — a return to the Scriptures; a new reformation that absolutely insists upon the supremacy of the Scriptures in determining what is so and what is not. But now even as in those days, it is not to be a “just me and my Bible” approach! The Bible is to be interpreted according to “the analogy of faith” as the early fathers called it — the foundations laid by Christ and the Apostles. As inspired interpreters of the Old Testament, it is their interpretations of the Old Testament and their sayings and writings in the New Testament that formed the basis for all generations to follow. The Church is called “the pillar and ground of the truth” in 1st Timothy 3:15, and its “common confession” (verse 16) of the Christian faith appears over and over again in the “faithful sayings, worthy of acceptation (1st Timothy 1:15, 3:1, 4:9, 2nd Timothy 2:11, Titus 3:8, Revelation 22:6)” and elucidated in the ancient creeds of the Christian faith. Those “faithful sayings” that Paul and John refer to are the most ancient creeds! They were the “rule of faith,” the basis for all interpretation of Scripture. It is this rule of faith and the Scriptures alone that the Reformation restored to the Church. And it is exactly the same that must be restored to those emerging from modern-day Babylon."
"Reaching Those Still Trapped in Charismatic Chaos" by Robin Arnaud < click source
Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource < broader source
tty soon
love zone
i'm trying to fire up the brain cells on this one
some i haven't used in awhile.
i'll post from my older files and add some other things (pre-catholic renewal mystics - Jane Ward Leade etc/montanism, and so on).
there may not be any way around eventually bringing up names of NAR guys (old and new). there are some things we can discover about where these guys meet - and who they meet with. i have to pray about how far to go with that.
the following is not my writing, but sums up my position (i may not say it exactly this way, but it's close).
so my thesis will be somewhat like this (emphasis mine):
"Religious Addiction
What we are really dealing with in our Charismatic friends is religious addiction. It is every bit as real and as damaging as any other addiction. And like most addicts, only those who are brought low enough to see the truth finally seek help, or give up hope. It is only when the drink or the drug or the pleasure fails to deliver as promised — over and over again — that the addict is finally prepared to listen to reason. When a soul is seduced by the empty promises of Charismaticism and reason is dismissed as a hindrance, the grip of this heresy tightens incredibly. One trapped in its hold seldom is prepared to reemploy long-abandoned reason until real drought and famine have set in. A Charismatic has to want help before he or she can accept it. As long as they remain content in Pentecostal delusion and satisfied with the ear-tickling, soul-thrilling “high” it conveys, they will not hear our pleas to return to what they consider to be the bondage of “cold, dead orthodoxy.”...
The Reformation Revisited
At a time centuries ago when the Bible was not available to most people, the gospel was buried in Roman Catholic malpractice, superstition, and corruption. So it is today in the Charismatic movement. The Bible is pushed aside except as a prop for “proof texting” popular teachings and for lending credibility to some “prophetic word.” The truth is obscured for the sake of keeping the sheep in bondage to the influence of corrupt wolves and hirelings who care not for the sheep, but for themselves (Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23). Modern Charismaticism is exactly like Roman Catholicism was in the Middle Ages; steeped in unbiblical superstitions, false doctrines, and control over the flock.
The solution today is exactly the same as it was back then — a return to the Scriptures; a new reformation that absolutely insists upon the supremacy of the Scriptures in determining what is so and what is not. But now even as in those days, it is not to be a “just me and my Bible” approach! The Bible is to be interpreted according to “the analogy of faith” as the early fathers called it — the foundations laid by Christ and the Apostles. As inspired interpreters of the Old Testament, it is their interpretations of the Old Testament and their sayings and writings in the New Testament that formed the basis for all generations to follow. The Church is called “the pillar and ground of the truth” in 1st Timothy 3:15, and its “common confession” (verse 16) of the Christian faith appears over and over again in the “faithful sayings, worthy of acceptation (1st Timothy 1:15, 3:1, 4:9, 2nd Timothy 2:11, Titus 3:8, Revelation 22:6)” and elucidated in the ancient creeds of the Christian faith. Those “faithful sayings” that Paul and John refer to are the most ancient creeds! They were the “rule of faith,” the basis for all interpretation of Scripture. It is this rule of faith and the Scriptures alone that the Reformation restored to the Church. And it is exactly the same that must be restored to those emerging from modern-day Babylon."
"Reaching Those Still Trapped in Charismatic Chaos" by Robin Arnaud < click source
Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource < broader source
tty soon
love zone
Last edited:
hi Ken
the above is particularly poignant, since we do know this is exactly what it has come to for much of the movement....i know it very personally. it happened exactly that way to me.
~
"Is there such a thing as being drunk in the Spirit ? Slain in the Spirit or Holy Laughter. In my many years of being a charismatic of which I am a now a recovering charismatic. It sounds similar to a being a recovering alcoholic and in essence it is. The emotional experience in most charismatic services is what becomes top priority. Most charismatics mistake the feeling generated by the music minister leading the praise and worship during the service as Holy Spirit ordained. The exhilarating feeling that is felt is mistakenly called the move of the Holy Spirit. The preaching of the Word becomes an afterthought and takes a back seat to the music. I was in one service where a woman fell out and landed right on my left arm which was a good thing because if my arm was not there she would have hit her head on the metal chair. She would have been in considerable pain, sometimes you just don’t know what is going on with people...."
from: thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog
~
i'll post also a book i came across while 'recovering'. it's worth reading if you have the time. there's an online version. i don't endorse everything in it regarding her theology/Christology etc....it's not the point. read the intro and warning. i agree with it.
the point is what she and evan roberts saw. i searched it out because i had read some old newspaper clippings at the library and came across a short interview with evan roberts - the reporter asked him why he initiated the revival....his answer made my hair stand on end: he said God the Father visited him in his room and told him to. this made me get the book.
astonishingly, it details exactly the same stuff we see in the videos posted on the other thread, and the extremes you and i agree are happening. and exactly the same things i personally went through.
we can talk about it more if needed.
War On The Saints
by Jessie Penn-Lewis, with Evan Roberts
World Wide Web Edition (Based on Unabridged 1912 Edition)
War On The Saints - Contents < click
War On The Saints - Contents
War On The Saints - Contents < click chart pages.
there are things in the counterfeit side that i went through literally.
again, i do not recommend this book for fun or entertainment, nor do i recommend it for her theology.
just for reference.
btw: evans had a nervous breakdown after the revival; co-wrote the book; recanted having written it; then recanted his recant.
bye for now
zone
the above is particularly poignant, since we do know this is exactly what it has come to for much of the movement....i know it very personally. it happened exactly that way to me.
~
"Is there such a thing as being drunk in the Spirit ? Slain in the Spirit or Holy Laughter. In my many years of being a charismatic of which I am a now a recovering charismatic. It sounds similar to a being a recovering alcoholic and in essence it is. The emotional experience in most charismatic services is what becomes top priority. Most charismatics mistake the feeling generated by the music minister leading the praise and worship during the service as Holy Spirit ordained. The exhilarating feeling that is felt is mistakenly called the move of the Holy Spirit. The preaching of the Word becomes an afterthought and takes a back seat to the music. I was in one service where a woman fell out and landed right on my left arm which was a good thing because if my arm was not there she would have hit her head on the metal chair. She would have been in considerable pain, sometimes you just don’t know what is going on with people...."
from: thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog
~
i'll post also a book i came across while 'recovering'. it's worth reading if you have the time. there's an online version. i don't endorse everything in it regarding her theology/Christology etc....it's not the point. read the intro and warning. i agree with it.
the point is what she and evan roberts saw. i searched it out because i had read some old newspaper clippings at the library and came across a short interview with evan roberts - the reporter asked him why he initiated the revival....his answer made my hair stand on end: he said God the Father visited him in his room and told him to. this made me get the book.
astonishingly, it details exactly the same stuff we see in the videos posted on the other thread, and the extremes you and i agree are happening. and exactly the same things i personally went through.
we can talk about it more if needed.
War On The Saints
by Jessie Penn-Lewis, with Evan Roberts
World Wide Web Edition (Based on Unabridged 1912 Edition)
War On The Saints - Contents < click
War On The Saints - Contents
War On The Saints - Contents < click chart pages.
there are things in the counterfeit side that i went through literally.
again, i do not recommend this book for fun or entertainment, nor do i recommend it for her theology.
just for reference.
btw: evans had a nervous breakdown after the revival; co-wrote the book; recanted having written it; then recanted his recant.
bye for now
zone
Last edited: