Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Someone else did the work on them (although it's possible to do it to themselves).
🥪
Oy Vey! Nice equivocating answer. :rolleyes: I perceive that we're not going to get anywhere near getting a rational answer to my question. So, let's cut to the chase with the goal of getting to the purpose behind God's commands to the Israelites to circumcise themselves.

First of all, while it may be possible for someone to perform that surgery upon themselves, there's no record in scripture that anyone ever did. Circumcision is always spoken of in scripture as a procedure that one person performed upon another (Gen 17:23-27; 21:4; Ex 4:25-26; 12:44, 48 ; Jos 5:2-3). And this makes good sense because it was a surgical procedure and quite painful before man invented anesthesia -- even after the 3rd day of surgery (Gen 34:24-25).

The second thing we learn about circumcision is that with the exception of any first generation (adult) male who desired to enter into a covenant relationship with YHWH through the divinely prescribed circumcision ritual, the future generation of males were required to be circumcised 8 days after their birth. This requirement was even embedded into the Law of Moses (Lev 12:3). What this means, then, is that in the vast majority of cases a circumcised male not only had the procedure performed on him but it was performed without the male's consent! In other words, the males' "free will" was circumvented! (Wow! Imagine that! Look at how many millions of males had God's will "forced" upon them -- even to this day!) :rolleyes:

The third aspect to this religious ritual is what the "cutting off" of a male's foreskin symbolized. Without getting into the medical weeds, let's just say that this was part of a male's anatomy that was for all practical intent and purposes was useless. It would not be a stretch to say that that for this reason, the foreskin was already "dead" and needed to be separated from that of which it was an integral part so that whole would become clean. The removal of this "dead" foreskin was liekly a cleansing ritual of sorts by which males entered into a coveanat relationship with God and became part of his covenant family.

It's also very interesting that circumcision only applies to maies. Could this have someting to do with the fact that Adam (per my recent argument) was of the serpent's ungodly seed, and so all male descendants of Adam who participate in God's covenant blessings were given a symbolic way to cleanse themselves -- to "separate" themseles from the serpent's ungody seed, which inlcuded Adam? Just a thought....

Now...let's look circumcision under the New Covenant (NC). We find out that true spiritual substance to the religious rite of phsycial circumcision is that like the physical the spiritual is also done to God's chosen people (his elect). This circumcision is performed by the Holy Spirit (Rom 2:29) and by Christ (Col 2:11). Also, this inward, invisible, spiritual work is not the result of man's free moral agency!

I also stronly suspect that this spiritual circumcision is part and parcel of the promised "new heart" NC promise in Jeremiah 31. This circumcision, according to Col 2:11 is a "cutting off of the flesh" (sinful nature) -- the cutting off the heart's callousness (Rom 2:29). It's a removal of the unregenerate person's natural hardness of heart with which they were born. The removal of this hardness renders the heart "new" in that for the first time ever that person's heart has been supernaturally acted upon to make it soft, pliable and sensitive to God and his calling. And I have no dobut at all that this happens during the regeneration process. And we must not forget that this divine action upon the human hearts affects ALL man's faculties -- mind, will, emotions and conscience!

So, now with all this background of both types of circumcision behind us, we still have to answer the question of why would God tell Israel that they had to circumcise their own heart -- under the pains of his wrath, yet, if they disbodyed (Jer 4:4)? What was the purpose of such a command? Why would God command them to do something impossible? And we reasonably have to think that the Jews knew this was an impossible command for them; for they knew what physical circumcision was all about. Their reaction was likely very similar to Nicodemus' incredulity when Jesus told him that he had to be born again! Such hard commands were designed to show the Israleties of the impossibility of their escape from their spiritual plight. They, like Jeremiah, were trapped in the very deep, dark muck and mire of a well from which a solo escape was impossible! They were not going to extricate themselves by the power of their own will! They needed to cry out to YHWH to save them from their impossible situation! Even Paul tells us that one of the purposes behind the Law was to lead the Israelites to their Messiah (Gal 3:24)!

I had much more to say about this issue, but as it is, it has taken me literally hours to bang this out because of numerous interrruptions. But in closing, I will remind everyone of what should be obvious by now: Circumcision under the Old and New Covenants (most especially the latter) is not something that man has control over. It's not within man's power to circumcise himself. That's way above his pay grade. Therefore, it cannot truly be said that God "forces" his will upon any of his chosen people when he does something for or to them that they themselves cannot do!
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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It is your responsibility to either believe or to reject.

God gave us free will. People claim God created evil. Well this is not true. What God did was give mankind the freedom to chose. Because God, being a relational person. wants to have a relationship.

The only other option would be God made you a robot. where you do what he wants only and are unable to do anything else.. There can be no relationship in this

So in effect. Giving mankind free will. He gave mankind the ability to chose self over God. which is in itself evil..
But don't forget: Since we come into this world with a corrupt, polluted nature our will is only free to serve that nature. We have ZERO will power to become something that we ARE NOT!
 

Everlasting-Grace

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But don't forget: Since we come into this world with a corrupt, polluted nature our will is only free to serve that nature. We have ZERO will power to become something that we ARE NOT!
Maybe so

But not only do we know we are rightly judged (romans 1) we have the ability to chose to call out to be saved.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Maybe so

But not only do we know we are rightly judged (romans 1) we have the ability to chose to call out to be saved.
Do we really? Someone who is trapped inside a burning building is naturally very aware of their dire physical circumstances and can and will, therefore, call out for help to be saved. But an unregenerate sinner's spiritual situation is even more desperate, for not only are they trapped inside their sinful nature unable to escape from it but they are naturally unaware of the imminent danger which surrounds their life. This truth speaks to the very nature of sin which is its utter deceitfulness (Heb 3:13). And what does this condition do to the human heart? It hardens it! And a spiritually hardened heart is insensitive (as in "dead") to spiritual reality. A hardened heart makes a sinner unaware of their plight. And since unaware, then how will they cry out, and to whom will they cry out? Ponder carefully and soberly what the prophet said:

Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

NIV

Do you recall in Luke 13 a healing Jesus did on badly crippled woman on the sabbath and how the Pharisees and synagogue ruler vehemently objected and told the people to come back on one of the other 6 days when healing "work" could lawfully be done? Do you recall Jesus' sharp, pointed rebuke to his detractors? He called them out on their hypocrisy by reminding them that they do good to their animals by leading out their ox or mule from its stall on sabbaths so that they might drink water from a trough! The obvious moral to this story is if the Pharisees felt justified in tending to their animals in a humane way on the sabbath, how much more is the Lord of the Sabbath justified in doing good to any of God's image-bearers who are as "bound up" as any their animals? Not only were the Pharisees totally unaware of their own hypocritical stance against Jesus, but even after the Lord made them aware of their hypocrisy their hardened hearts would not allow them to acknowledge their sin and repent of it! They simply loved the darkness too much to let a little hypocrisy stand in the way of their sinful lifestyle.

This is why unregenerate mankind's spiritual condition is infinitely more dire than any mere physical danger in which they may find themselves.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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Feb 17, 2023
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Oy Vey! Nice equivocating answer. :rolleyes: I perceive that we're not going to get anywhere near getting a rational answer to my question. So, let's cut to the chase with the goal of getting to the purpose behind God's commands to the Israelites to circumcise themselves.

First of all, while it may be possible for someone to perform that surgery upon themselves, there's no record in scripture that anyone ever did. Circumcision is always spoken of in scripture as a procedure that one person performed upon another (Gen 17:23-27; 21:4; Ex 4:25-26; 12:44, 48 ; Jos 5:2-3). And this makes good sense because it was a surgical procedure and quite painful before man invented anesthesia -- even after the 3rd day of surgery (Gen 34:24-25).

The second thing we learn about circumcision is that with the exception of any first generation (adult) male who desired to enter into a covenant relationship with YHWH through the divinely prescribed circumcision ritual, the future generation of males were required to be circumcised 8 days after their birth. This requirement was even embedded into the Law of Moses (Lev 12:3). What this means, then, is that in the vast majority of cases a circumcised male not only had the procedure performed on him but it was performed without the male's consent! In other words, the males' "free will" was circumvented! (Wow! Imagine that! Look at how many millions of males had God's will "forced" upon them -- even to this day!) :rolleyes:

The third aspect to this religious ritual is what the "cutting off" of a male's foreskin symbolized. Without getting into the medical weeds, let's just say that this was part of a male's anatomy that was for all practical intent and purposes was useless. It would not be a stretch to say that that for this reason, the foreskin was already "dead" and needed to be separated from that of which it was an integral part so that whole would become clean. The removal of this "dead" foreskin was liekly a cleansing ritual of sorts by which males entered into a coveanat relationship with God and became part of his covenant family.

It's also very interesting that circumcision only applies to maies. Could this have someting to do with the fact that Adam (per my recent argument) was of the serpent's ungodly seed, and so all male descendants of Adam who participate in God's covenant blessings were given a symbolic way to cleanse themselves -- to "separate" themseles from the serpent's ungody seed, which inlcuded Adam? Just a thought....

Now...let's look circumcision under the New Covenant (NC). We find out that true spiritual substance to the religious rite of phsycial circumcision is that like the physical the spiritual is also done to God's chosen people (his elect). This circumcision is performed by the Holy Spirit (Rom 2:29) and by Christ (Col 2:11). Also, this inward, invisible, spiritual work is not the result of man's free moral agency!

I also stronly suspect that this spiritual circumcision is part and parcel of the promised "new heart" NC promise in Jeremiah 31. This circumcision, according to Col 2:11 is a "cutting off of the flesh" (sinful nature) -- the cutting off the heart's callousness (Rom 2:29). It's a removal of the unregenerate person's natural hardness of heart with which they were born. The removal of this hardness renders the heart "new" in that for the first time ever that person's heart has been supernaturally acted upon to make it soft, pliable and sensitive to God and his calling. And I have no dobut at all that this happens during the regeneration process. And we must not forget that this divine action upon the human hearts affects ALL man's faculties -- mind, will, emotions and conscience!

So, now with all this background of both types of circumcision behind us, we still have to answer the question of why would God tell Israel that they had to circumcise their own heart -- under the pains of his wrath, yet, if they disbodyed (Jer 4:4)? What was the purpose of such a command? Why would God command them to do something impossible? And we reasonably have to think that the Jews knew this was an impossible command for them; for they knew what physical circumcision was all about. Their reaction was likely very similar to Nicodemus' incredulity when Jesus told him that he had to be born again! Such hard commands were designed to show the Israleties of the impossibility of their escape from their spiritual plight. They, like Jeremiah, were trapped in the very deep, dark muck and mire of a well from which a solo escape was impossible! They were not going to extricate themselves by the power of their own will! They needed to cry out to YHWH to save them from their impossible situation! Even Paul tells us that one of the purposes behind the Law was to lead the Israelites to their Messiah (Gal 3:24)!

I had much more to say about this issue, but as it is, it has taken me literally hours to bang this out because of numerous interrruptions. But in closing, I will remind everyone of what should be obvious by now: Circumcision under the Old and New Covenants (most especially the latter) is not something that man has control over. It's not within man's power to circumcise himself. That's way above his pay grade. Therefore, it cannot truly be said that God "forces" his will upon any of his chosen people when he does something for or to them that they themselves cannot do!

I feel bad that you wrote so much, but as you can see just from real life that just because a man is physically circumcised, it doesn't mean they will actually dedicate their whole life to God. How many Jewish people actually live up to God's standards even though they follow the rituals and whatnot? The inner life should match the physical procedure. But that is entirely up to the man to decide for himself. If they're willing to circumcise their hearts, God will help them to follow through on it, but only if they had decided to - it's not forced on them.

I think people want to believe that it is all God's responsibility because it scares them that they are given choices which means we have responsibility for those choices.

I get it, I was scared too when I realized I was given choices, but God made it so simple. When we choose Jesus as our Lord and Savior, God gives us His Holy Spirit as a seal that we belong to Him. It is the Holy Spirit that enables us to grow in Christlikeness and obedience. All we have to is NOT RESIST His work and we'll be fine. Obeying and being loyal to God gets easier and easier as time goes on because of the Holy Spirit's powerful work in you. Honest! It really is very simple.


🎣
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Do we really? Someone who is trapped inside a burning building is naturally very aware of their dire physical circumstances and can and will, therefore, call out for help to be saved. But an unregenerate sinner's spiritual situation is even more desperate, for not only are they trapped inside their sinful nature unable to escape from it but they are naturally unaware of the imminent danger which surrounds their life. This truth speaks to the very nature of sin which is its utter deceitfulness (Heb 3:13). And what does this condition do to the human heart? It hardens it! And a spiritually hardened heart is insensitive (as in "dead") to spiritual reality. A hardened heart makes a sinner unaware of their plight. And since unaware, then how will they cry out, and to whom will they cry out? Ponder carefully and soberly what the prophet said:

Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

NIV

Do you recall in Luke 13 a healing Jesus did on badly crippled woman on the sabbath and how the Pharisees and synagogue ruler vehemently objected and told the people to come back on one of the other 6 days when healing "work" could lawfully be done? Do you recall Jesus' sharp, pointed rebuke to his detractors? He called them out on their hypocrisy by reminding them that they do good to their animals by leading out their ox or mule from its stall on sabbaths so that they might drink water from a trough! The obvious moral to this story is if the Pharisees felt justified in tending to their animals in a humane way on the sabbath, how much more is the Lord of the Sabbath justified in doing good to any of God's image-bearers who are as "bound up" as any their animals? Not only were the Pharisees totally unaware of their own hypocritical stance against Jesus, but even after the Lord made them aware of their hypocrisy their hardened hearts would not allow them to acknowledge their sin and repent of it! They simply loved the darkness too much to let a little hypocrisy stand in the way of their sinful lifestyle.

This is why unregenerate mankind's spiritual condition is infinitely more dire than any mere physical danger in which they may find themselves.
Keep trying man

Paul said in romans 1 they know it. It is why he also said they have no excuse.

If they are unable to know they need saved, they have an excuse.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,050
101
63
I feel bad that you wrote so much, but as you can see just from real life that just because a man is physically circumcised, it doesn't mean they will actually dedicate their whole life to God. How many Jewish people actually live up to God's standards even though they follow the rituals and whatnot? The inner life should match the physical procedure. But that is entirely up to the man to decide for himself. If they're willing to circumcise their hearts, God will help them to follow through on it, but only if they had decided to - it's not forced on them.

I think people want to believe that it is all God's responsibility because it scares them that they are given choices which means we have responsibility for those choices.

I get it, I was scared too when I realized I was given choices, but God made it so simple. When we choose Jesus as our Lord and Savior, God gives us His Holy Spirit as a seal that we belong to Him. It is the Holy Spirit that enables us to grow in Christlikeness and obedience. All we have to is NOT RESIST His work and we'll be fine. Obeying and being loyal to God gets easier and easier as time goes on because of the Holy Spirit's powerful work in you. Honest! It really is very simple.


🎣
Apparently you don't understand that a TYPE (e.g. physical, outward circumcision) is only a symbolic, external representation of its ANTITYPE (the internal, invisible, eternal, spiritual substance). A type is but a foreshadow that points to its spiritual, eternal substance (antitype). Name me one external, religious OT ritual that was ever designed to effect permanent spiritual change or transformation.

Here's something for you to ponder: Meditate on the Exodus of the Israelites from their bondage to their Egyptian slave masters. Scripture refers to this historic event as God's redemption of his "firstborn" from Egypt. Yet, this was only the ancient Hebrews' redemption from their physical bondage! Did all the external miraculous signs and wonders God performed for his chosen people in freeing them from their bondage affect their hearts? Did all that God did for them transform their sin nature? Not hardly, did it!? But when we study the antitype to the Exodus, i.e. God's redemption of his New Covenant people which is the substance to which the OT Exodus points, we come away with a very different picture. God's redemption of his NC people not only changes people's hearts, but it transforms them -- from inside out!
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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Jesus died on the cross for the just/elect/saved whose names are written in The book of life.
In the Book of Revelation chapter 13 verse 8 it shows us in the "only place" in the Bible of people not written in the Book of Life.
These people will worship the BEAST, which [has not] been revealed yet.

8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Everyone else is written in the Book of Life unless they get Blotted out.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.

I highlighted the Lamb and the LORD because we know this is JESUS in the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant.
So it is the SAME PERSON of GOD!
We're talking about HIS BOOK!


If we go by YOUR POST I have quoted, Jesus died for everyone written in the Book of Life.

If we go by the BIBLE, "everyone but Revelation 13:8" IS WRITTEN in the Book of LIFE (until they get blotted out).

If we go by your reasoning, Jesus died for EVERYONE but those in Revelation 13:8.


You should think before you post. It reveals your level of understanding and of those who follow your doctrine.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Keep trying man

Paul said in romans 1 they know it. It is why he also said they have no excuse.

If they are unable to know they need saved, they have an excuse.
Paul never said in Rom 1 that unregenerate men know they need salvation. In fact, Rom 1 is talking about Natural Revelation -- not the Gospel that is revealed in only Special (divine) revelation. What is being revealed in Natural Revelation is God's WRATH -- not his Gospel, per se (1:18).

Also, fallen men do not KNOW God per se, for such knowledge is actually the essence of eternal life, which the Dead do not possess. The best an unregenerate person can do is glean from Natural Revelation some things ABOUT God (v.19). So, even though v. 21 starts with "For although they knew God..." this knowledge is superficial at best. The only way the lost "know" God is as their enemy!

This is the reason they "have no excuse". Even with their carnal mind and profane reasoning, they know that things are not right in this world. They see all the suffering, misery, anxiety, chaos, and evil in this world and how the sons sons of men suffer and die in this temporal reality, yet as Paul goes on to say their foolish hearts are darkened and this is why they CANNOT and will not cry out to God to save them. Instead, their response is to put even more distance between themselves and their Creator, by suppressing the truth in their unrighteousness -- putting God out of the consciousness -- out of their knowledge. Man has ZERO ability to bridge the[ DEATH] gap between himself and God. Of course, this doesn't prohibit the unregenerate from creating idols -- creating gods in their own image. This is why all the world's religions share this one common denominator: the utterly self-deceived sons of men think they can appease God's wrath. They think they can earn his favor by keeping his law or their own man-made religious rules or by performing more good works than bad works, etc.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,050
101
63
In the Book of Revelation chapter 13 verse 8 it shows us in the "only place" in the Bible of people not written in the Book of Life.
These people will worship the BEAST, which [has not] been revealed yet.

8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Everyone else is written in the Book of Life unless they get Blotted out.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.

I highlighted the Lamb and the LORD because we know this is JESUS in the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant.
So it is the SAME PERSON of GOD! We're talking about HIS BOOK!


If we go by YOUR POST I have quoted, Jesus died for everyone written in the Book of Life.

If we go by the BIBLE, "everyone but Revelation 13:8" IS WRITTEN in the Book of LIFE (until they get blotted out).

If we go by your reasoning, Jesus died for EVERYONE but those in Revelation 13:8.


You should think before you post. It reveals your level of understanding and of those who follow your doctrine.
The "beast" has always been known in this world. The beast is the devil and the sons of men have been worshipping him and his demons from the dawn of time. After all, he is the "god of this age". Don't forget: There are only two kinds of "seed" in this world -- from virtually the very beginning!
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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The "beast" has always been known in this world. The beast is the devil and the sons of men have been worshipping him and his demons from the dawn of time. After all, he is the "god of this age". Don't forget: There are only two kinds of "seed" in this world -- from virtually the very beginning!
John's Revelation was the future. Stick to reality as John wrote it.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,050
101
63
In the Book of Revelation chapter 13 verse 8 it shows us in the "only place" in the Bible of people not written in the Book of Life.
These people will worship the BEAST, which [has not] been revealed yet.

8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Everyone else is written in the Book of Life unless they get Blotted out.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.

I highlighted the Lamb and the LORD because we know this is JESUS in the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant.
So it is the SAME PERSON of GOD!
We're talking about HIS BOOK!


If we go by YOUR POST I have quoted, Jesus died for everyone written in the Book of Life.

If we go by the BIBLE, "everyone but Revelation 13:8" IS WRITTEN in the Book of LIFE (until they get blotted out).

If we go by your reasoning, Jesus died for EVERYONE but those in Revelation 13:8.


You should think before you post. It reveals your level of understanding and of those who follow your doctrine.


You should take your own advice and quit deceiving people by conflating two different passages that talk about different books! The larger context of Ex 32:33 tell us precisely who was blotted out and how and why. Have you no shame? You just ignore context when it doesn't suit your agenda?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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You should take your own advice and quit deceiving people by conflating two different passages that talk about different books! The larger context of Ex 32:33 tell us precisely who was blotted out and how and why. Have you no shame? You just ignore context when it doesn't suit your agenda?
It's the LORD's BOOK, as in JESUS', the LAMB's BOOK.

'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
'Whosoever is for anyone.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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But nothing has changed! The BEAST has always been the devil! Even in the OT he was referred to as "the dragon".
The Devil never had the kind of VISIBLE POWER on Earth he will like during the Great Tribulation. Stop making stuff up. You have so many idols which one do you worship the most?
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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Feb 17, 2023
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Apparently you don't understand that a TYPE (e.g. physical, outward circumcision) is only a symbolic, external representation of its ANTITYPE (the internal, invisible, eternal, spiritual substance). A type is but a foreshadow that points to its spiritual, eternal substance (antitype). Name me one external, religious OT ritual that was ever designed to effect permanent spiritual change or transformation.

Here's something for you to ponder: Meditate on the Exodus of the Israelites from their bondage to their Egyptian slave masters. Scripture refers to this historic event as God's redemption of his "firstborn" from Egypt. Yet, this was only the ancient Hebrews' redemption from their physical bondage! Did all the external miraculous signs and wonders God performed for his chosen people in freeing them from their bondage affect their hearts? Did all that God did for them transform their sin nature? Not hardly, did it!? But when we study the antitype to the Exodus, i.e. God's redemption of his New Covenant people which is the substance to which the OT Exodus points, we come away with a very different picture. God's redemption of his NC people not only changes people's hearts, but it transforms them -- from inside out!

I would have believed what you wrote, but look at the church body today. Not all are transformed. That tells me that those who aren't transformed are choosing to resist God's work in them. That means choice. Transformation requires a Christian to choose to submit to that transformation. Also remember, the Bible says we can grieve the Holy Spirit (because He doesn't force His work on anyone). that means we're not submitting to Him, a choice.


🎣



🎣
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,186
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Paul never said in Rom 1 that unregenerate men know they need salvation. In fact, Rom 1 is talking about Natural Revelation -- not the Gospel that is revealed in only Special (divine) revelation. What is being revealed in Natural Revelation is God's WRATH -- not his Gospel, per se (1:18).

Also, fallen men do not KNOW God per se, for such knowledge is actually the essence of eternal life, which the Dead do not possess. The best an unregenerate person can do is glean from Natural Revelation some things ABOUT God (v.19). So, even though v. 21 starts with "For although they knew God..." this knowledge is superficial at best. The only way the lost "know" God is as their enemy!

This is the reason they "have no excuse". Even with their carnal mind and profane reasoning, they know that things are not right in this world. They see all the suffering, misery, anxiety, chaos, and evil in this world and how the sons sons of men suffer and die in this temporal reality, yet as Paul goes on to say their foolish hearts are darkened and this is why they CANNOT and will not cry out to God to save them. Instead, their response is to put even more distance between themselves and their Creator, by suppressing the truth in their unrighteousness -- putting God out of the consciousness -- out of their knowledge. Man has ZERO ability to bridge the[ DEATH] gap between himself and God. Of course, this doesn't prohibit the unregenerate from creating idols -- creating gods in their own image. This is why all the world's religions share this one common denominator: the utterly self-deceived sons of men think they can appease God's wrath. They think they can earn his favor by keeping his law or their own man-made religious rules or by performing more good works than bad works, etc.
Keep believing this way. You worship a God that holds you up against others. And makes everyone robots.

I wipe the dust of my feet
 
Dec 25, 2021
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Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jesus died for everyone, however just because Jesus dies for you does not automatically make you saved. We are saved by grace, THROUGH faith, so faith needs to be present.

What Jesus' death did was atone for sins, but just like in the old covenant if one did not humble themselves, the atonement was not applied.
 
Dec 25, 2021
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Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. That doesn’t sound like everybody!