Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

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FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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God knew the end from the beginning, yes. But why make that more than what's there? God knew, from the beginning, how this is all going to turn out. It's written for us to see in Revelation. We now know how it's going to turn out. Jesus wins!
It just means knowing the End means He already knows the Beginning and everything Between.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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the real question that needs to eb asked is whether this faith/belief that saves a person comes from within man or is granted to man as a gift as seen in the verses below?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Act 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

Eph2:8 the language is not conclusive but interpretational that the highlighted clause speaks of "faith" being the gift.

Php1:29 does say: on behalf of Christ to believe in[to] Christ and to suffer on behalf of Christ was graciously given to you Philippians.

Acts18:27 does say they had believed through/by means of grace.

Some of the complexity of the concept of Faith is that the word can be interpreted both subjectively and objectively:
  • It is what we do (believe, have faith).
  • It is what we learn, understand and believe (the faith).
It's just as easy to say we believe what we were graciously given to believe, so the content that we believe is the gift and without the gift of the content there is nothing to believe, so ultimately we can say belief in the content is a gift, because without the content or the person necessary to believe, there is no meaningful belief.

Eph2:8 can easily be interpreted (grammatically easier and cleaner than "faith") as saying the by grace salvation through/by faith (first clause) is the gift.

Php1:29 has in context in 1:27 " the good news [of] the Christ" and "the faith [of] the good news". These could be parallels: The Christ is the content of the Good News & The Faith is the content of the Good News. The Faith is what we believe - the Good News that Jesus is the Christ is what we believe. The Faith is the Good News that Jesus is the Christ. We believe the Faith. We believe the Good News.

To believe is a gracious gift because the object of our faith - what we believe - is a gift John3:16.

Acts18:27 can just as easily fit the above.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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There’s a humongous difference. The “faith” of demons is useless, even though they might tremble with fright at what they know to be true. They have no love for Jesus. —selah
Agree. But foundationally I'd add that they are disobedient - not in submission - to Him
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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So, you would translate pistis and cognates as belief or faith depending upon context?
I have already stated that belief would be the preferred translation.
If we believe Jesus is Christ and the demons believe Jesus is Christ, is our belief different? How and why?
The demons knew the identity of the Christ, 'we know who you are!'

The demons did not need a belief in the messiah.

We need to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus
and confess His name to be saved (Romans 10:9).
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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Thanks for the reply. I mostly agree. Theological systems' teachings and interpretative translations and inconsistencies remain a problem. Also, it's not an easy topic. There's a lot of data to digest and harmonize.
As with most debates in Christianity, Christian history, theology, and interpretations, are the culprits in all debates.

Making understanding the simple N.T letters almost impossible to understand for everyone.

Hard to believe we are in this state in the 21st Century.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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Private interpretation…the verse simply states God knows the end…from the beginning.
It seems rather difficult to know the end of something unless you know the entirety of it. Otherwise, how do you know it ended?
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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That brings up the question, without first checking, whether believe is an active or a passive verb, although I'd think that it would be obvious.
Believe is an active verb. The passive verb would be "be believed".
I have believed Jesus. Active verb
Jesus has been believed by me. Passive verb.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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My full post was -

Where is that rule of debate in the Bible, Mr. Sola Scriptura. Or where is that rule of debate anywhere stated.

How is that a straw man. If the first rule of debate, according to you, is "The first rule of debate is to restart (sic.) your opponents argument in your own words and ask "Is that correct?" then "Where is that written anywhere in the Bible or elsewhere?" is a logical follow-up question.

Biblically, the first rule of debate could be "The first man who speaks sounds right, until another man cross-examines him." Prov. 18:17
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Believe is an active verb. The passive verb would be "be believed".
I have believed Jesus. Active verb
Jesus has been believed by me. Passive verb.
This is how I thought verbs worked, thank you. Just making sure. And I saw that you brought up objects of verbs, so, 'made to believe' is 'made' as the passive verb where the subject is made and "to believe" is the object, right (rather than the subject being the object of the action)?
And it just occurred to me how some assertion of a state of being made to believe some so close as to bring to my mind 'make believe' but that 'make' here is active and 'believe' is the object.
 

maxamir

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Mar 8, 2024
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HUH???

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
Like most Arminians you love to pull verses out of context to try to fit them into your man-centred theology and wrongly take what was written specifically to Christians and apply them everyone in the world.

Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Rev 3:15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 3:22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' "

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maxamir

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Mar 8, 2024
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Okay, even though you offered psuedo-answers to my question, which you here escape by implying it was a fake question, which is somewhat insulting to me, I'll answer your 'real' question... because I believe the truth is worth repeating.

re: Eph 2:*
Firstly, I've been saved by grace, in which a gift is characteristically given. Nobody ever says of anyone, "he graciously allowed me to pay for my meal."
Secondly, that is through this, faith. And that is, that I have been saved, and that not of myself; it is the gift of God.

re: Php 1:29 is letting believers know that suffering with Him will accompany believing in Him and this is granted on behalf of Christ as much as your righteousness is also granted on His behalf, as Abraham's righteousness is, through faith.

re: Act 18:27 those who had believed through grace, are seen as those who believed in the grace of God that would go as far as to extend salvation to them through faith in Christ.
are you denying that faith is given as a gift of grace and that Abraham was not accounted or imputed the faith through which God justified him?

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
 

maxamir

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Mar 8, 2024
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Hello. I don’t believe in unconditional election. I believe it’s conditional.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

- Romans 8:29
please understand that the word foreknew does not mean that God simply knew what people would do in time and then stepped back out of time to choose those He saw would choose Him. This would be called postdestination and not predestination which clearly says in Scripture that God chose some before they were born or could do anything.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

These are those God eternally loves because He knows them intimately in the same manner that Joseph did not intimately know Mary until Jesus was born which does not mean that he did not know about her.

Mat 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

To say that anyone was chosen by God conditioned upon what they did would be contrary to the concept of grace and Scripture.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.