A STORY of life so surreal that it can really be One altering what seemed the way....

GreenNnice · Jan 29, 2013

A thought on my heart, before I really sit down and, hopefully, prayerfully, can do a thread that explains to all that women are not the first choice to teach nor pastor a church, or, have any controlling authority over a body of believers, but, they, and, please, please, please, pray of this truth to you, can it be, that women are sometimes His choice, even so in your church it will, too, seem not Scripture, not real, not His best, but it will be, it will be His will and you will see it really happen, how God works 'that' kind of miracle into your life, so, so, so, surreal

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MEN & WOMEN: Agree or disagree with women preaching & leading in churches?

Women should NOT be preaching or leading in churches (over men as a equally qualified choice)?

Paul is clear in 1 Timothy 2:12 , I suffer not a woman to teach (over a man) or usurp (control, swallow up, it's an interesting choice of word, 'usurp') authority over a man but to be silent.

But, let's now admit this poll question is wrongly worded and EVERYONE should vote 'I do not agree with a woman teaching or leading a church, that is, being the pastor of men and women, if an equally qualified man is able to lead.'

That's just Scripture, right? Right. But, the Lord leads....

Christ peeps, have you ever had something surreal happen to you, this 'surreal' is how I liken the Holy Spirit moving over the 'water' of our life. Does this make sense?

When something is going on in your life and it seems just plain wrong to let something like THAT happen, be it, sacrificing money, quitting a good-paying job because of ethical reasons, etc., the list goes on and on, isn't it kind of surreal at that point? Lord, what did I just do ! I just paid `10 years worth of back taxes !! What was that all about? Lord, my wife whom I think is the cat's meow was not serving you and I thought she cute as the dickens but not going to church with me. I could have STOPPED going to church, as she requested, and that would have SAVED our marriage! Lord, what now, this happening is just weird, so empty now, what, Lord, I can't believe I have chosen this way, but you lead, I will surreally go....

Surreal. It's such a word, isn't it. How about this one? "What? What's that smoke. Oh my Lord, God! Help me!! There's thickj smoke seeping in underneath the door of my bedroom. And, I'm on the 3rd floor of my house!!! Loooooord!!!!!!"

Surreal, huh, ALL that stuff, surreal. What, huh, this can't be happening, I am not really having this happen to ME !!
But, you are, and, you KNOW who is leading you through this surrealness? God !!!!!!!

And, maybe your church has had something happen, gone through, that was surreal, like mine has, I explained to hopesprung yesterday that my 40 year pastor retired back in 2005 or so and the new pastor choice was pretty much dead set in stone, so the board who brought him from some big high-falootin church in North Carolina, Wayne something or other....
There was one other choice but he was our assistant pastor, ho-hum, who stumbled through his messages and did try so hard and grew up in the church, was the middle school kids pastor, the college/career pastor, and, then, the assistant pastor. But, he as a choice was, well, just not really thinkable, 35 years old and be voted to pastor a church with 10,000 people circulating through its doors weekly, including two services on Sunday morning, one in the evening, and, one on wednesday night.... Him, no, not him.

The board nominated, therefore, this bigshot, he had to be a bigshot, bigshot, from back east, and only needed the congregation to do their good part and vote him in, a 2/3 majority vote was needed, that would be 'the last word.'

But, that night, about 10 years ago now, the vote was in and it should have been a SHOO-IN choice for the dynamic Carolina 60-year-old kid, pastoring himself a big, vibrant church in Tobacco country (N.C.), but our Tacoma, Washington congregation said 'no' by virtue of a 1/2 percent, or, so, miss. That meant one thing: our ruddy-faced, inexperienced assistant pastor, who maybe spoke a handful of times in his 2 years as assistant, WAS NOW PASTOR of the largest church in Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Utah, and, darn it all, that Robert Schuller, and, maybe, Rick Warren, or, our church is about biggest ON THE WEST COAST .

Anyway, THAT 'vote,' my friends was surreal, and, I heard 'Wayne' bigshot speak and he was smooth as budduh, spreading a message and proclamation of what he would do for our church in syrupy words that would make over-cooked grits go down like a sweet coating of honey down your throat......But, I prayed to the Spirit, whom I only met in 2000, when my assistant pastor baptized me back then, a few years before he would lead a nation of believers. Who woulda thunk it !! God, for sure.

Anyway, when God says something should happen it should happen and it WILL happen IF the followers KNOW what's best for them. I want to encourage everyone to follow God, His great happenings in your life might seem surreal and just too darn damn unbelievable to accept. But, He is leading you and you should just let Him lead and ACCEPT whatever it is, from taxes, to staying faithful when wife not, or, vice versa, to anything looking like there's no justification in doing it for you. That's OK, because the justification should not be in what it is for you, but what it is YOU do for Him.

I just thought now a good time to tell this story, to show you all the power of God at work in my life. I have numerous examples of what I've experienced, watching His Spirit work on people, but, as you see there, on WHOLE churches, to appoint His man or, yes, I know a woman pastor appointed to a church, too, a nice gal, indeed . The Lord leads. Don't you DARE run someone else's race; '...you follow Me.' John 21:22. I just LOVE that verse, and, whole passage really. Seems surreal almost, how Jesus is just talking to Peter, and, looking back at John, and, Jesus said something prophetic that got Peter bitter, wondering. And, Jesus said, John 21:22

Ah, surreal. God's perfect order, only He knows, we can no where to go from Him, from His Word, from His Word, for we have 'the mind of Christ,' but we are NOT God and we NEVER will know His ways or His thoughts . Don't you EVER forget that, fellow peeps

GreenNnice · Jan 29, 2013

Does anyone truly then, this story read, realize how surreal the word 'suffer' is when Paul says it in 1 Timothy 2:12 ?

I mean, really LOOK at that word. Suffer !!! I mean, can you even BELIEVE he says, 'I suffer not a woman to teach or--' Whoa! Let's stop there. I mean, Paul has just used a word that is astronomically more vocal/powerful/vehement than a just plain, 'I allow not,' or, how about, 'I permit not.' But, no, YOU heard right !!! Paul said 'suffer' !!!!!

Whew !!

Any comments on this FIRST surreal word Paul uses in this incredibly said verse in the bible, by God, remember, too, folks, ALL that is written in Scripture is holy, inspired, and, that means 'breathed' into the brains of, God-breathed !!

So, what was God thinking when he put those words through the mind of Paul in writing this part of the epistle ?

Suffer!!!

Let's work on THIS word a bit, don't dally on something else, please, for now, my thread, my mediation, I will report you quicker than you can say 'male chauvinist pig,' if you try and steal the thunder of the Lord in this thread. Dead certain, green, of that? Try me

The Lord leads.

So, suffer, what does THIS word mean to you, markymark, godsron, bookends, zone, grandpa (where the heck are ya, boody

) , eg, cee, dee (oh, just kidding, but, cee knows who he is, my boody

) Another buddy is Rickschafe ,and, Ricky, and, LoveMe#1, and, hopesprung, and, unclefes, and, psychomommy, and, while I'm at it, though she never here in the bible discussion forum, snackersmommy, or, jilly, another not never here, but invited, as you can tell,

, in fact, ALL are invited, sorry, if I missed naming you abiding squirrels

, I WANT to know what you THINK of the word 'suffer' in THIS context:

"I suffer not a woman to teach or have authority over a man but to be silent.' WE all know, don't we, that to teach (over a man) unsplits the verb from the direct object, right

) So... there you go !! Suffer.

pickles · Jan 29, 2013

Much to ponder here greeny,

Ill be wondering this in Jesus, for a while.
Thankyou for posting it.

God bless
pickles

kenisyes · Jan 29, 2013

I've posted this before. In Greek, a woman pastor is no longer called a woman, whe is a pastoress. Hence, by simple semantics, a woman cannot pastor a church. The reason is that the word "woman" in Greek, means a female following the path of a sexual companion to a man, not what it means in English. The correct Scripture to use in its place is "in Christ there is neither male nor female".

I wish I could agree God always gets His way, but I have seen people who do not do what God tells them.

GreenNnice · Jan 29, 2013

I love milady, pickled, she's a joyous inspiration to me, takes the edge off our minds' eyes that need to be focused on Him more, so sweetly preaching the love of Jesus.

Yes, indeed, milady, it's all about Him, suffering for Him. And, IF, in some way, your life is not suffering for Him now, then, the Lord leads, but I say GET with Him NOW, RIGHT NOW, YOU NEED A CHECK-UP from the soul up, just maybe, pray, pray, there is 'great' joy in suffering, through faith, for Him, and, oh, yes, joy , and, don't forget, mercies, by Him, are 'new every morning.'

God bless your 'great' work for Him, pickledmilady

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kinny (i like to call 'Ken's 'kinny,' if you don't mind), God is ultimate authority, He is sovereign, His ways and our ways are not the same, just like His thoughts and our thoughts, as Isaiah 55 is scriptured, BUT, make no mistake, and, liken God's control to Satan~s over Job, as Satan could only do to Job as God allowed, and, the simple Jonah man, too, think of him, kinny, of his reluctance to.follow God's chosen plan and the way God intervened via Jonah thrown into.the sea, swallowed by a whaleshark

and kept three days inside the fish, as God, of course, kept Jonah alive through His power.
Oh, you can bet, too, ole Jonah SUFFERED but God knew Jonah's heart and He preserved Jonah's life .

Just like predestination. God knows who will choose Him, but our way can be, or, not be to elect to choose Him. God does know all though. Hard, I knooow,, to fathom this thought for some, might seem like I'm.suffering you thru my doctrine right now.
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'Nuf said, the Lord leads, and, IF I named you above, I EXPECT you to answer this question, the first of many,.the Lord leads.

What does the word 'suffer' mean in:

I suffer not a woman to teach or have authority over a man but to be silent.

godsron, where are ya?
I want you to wirk.out your salvation witn fear and trembling over here right now, LOL.

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i got to go.work..today, expect a PM from me if your name is on that list I gave and I have not heard your opinion on what the word 'suffer' means, the Lord leads. ricciticcitinny, you too. Again, just because I didn't put your name down, crossfyre, doesn't mean I'm neglecting you, making you suffer not being on my first ordered list, LOL

But, 'you follow Me.'
Get that, ohzone, and, milady, you've shied away from this topic, in threads of 'women as teachers/preachers over a man' so, here's your chance to go hog wild, as you are led, in spirit and in truth.

But, 'hog wild' means JUST giving your quick definition of suffer in 1 Timothy 2:12, like same question for everyone elsers

kenisyes · Jan 29, 2013

GreenNnice said:

Well, I doubt I can stop you. Someday, we'll talk about how my wife nicknamed me "elf", so I am just as green as you. I assume the question you want answered is "Agree or disagree with women preaching & leading in churches?"

I have worked under women pastors, and I have no problem with it. It's God who gives the call, and I work for the pastor or pastoress, not the woman or the man.

And before everybody tells me "God does not call women to be pastors", go read any of the threads about tongues and the gifts, and see how successful those folks have been in trying to talk me out of what I have seen bear the fruit of God, like I have seen in these women's lives.

GreenNnice · Jan 30, 2013

Bear fruit, elf, YES! That is HOW the Lord leads, it really is, it's not rocket science, it's simply how God works

So many like to think that a woman who is pastoring a church is just the dead preaching to the live, who will soon be dead, but that's true of ANY pastor-man or woman- and IF a woman pastor's congregation is growing, their is great fellowship and visiting after church, there is great many causes being fought, like inner city rescue mission, and, worldwide missionary giving, then, don't even try and tell me that you can't. just like spiritual gifts, as kinny the elf says , you can't dissuade him of the truth of Acts 2 speaking of the TIME of gifts STILL going on....just think about it

and think, too, about reading 1 Cor. 13, and, forget about the 'love,' baby, THINK about the perfect, who is JESUS CHRIST coming again, this too proves, well, I've so hashed that over with zone, I'm corned from it all, beefy even

So, this thread is NO MORE about regarding spiritual gifts STILL going on toooooo-day

Anyhoo, on that note, but not that topic, nooo-noooo-nooooo, you won't EVER get me to think that women who are BEARING FRUIT are not CALLED by God to pastor a church. No, siree, no way, ma'am, not EVER happening

Welll, the Lord leads. Never say never

My God reigns and my God works in mysterious ways to show His godliness, and, great is the mystery of godliness.

)))))(((((
Sigh, who is going to comment on the word 'suffer,' I have yet to get one person to feed me what other parts of scripture use this verb in it (are there any?) Is this a unique occurrence of 'suffer' in a bible verse?

I'm waaaa-iiii-ting

But, while I wait, can 'suffer' mean 'put up with,' and , IF it could, COULD it change the whole understanding of the rest of 1 Tim. 2:12 for you

pickles · Jan 30, 2013

GreenNnice said:

I love milady, pickled, she's a joyous inspiration to me, takes the edge off our minds' eyes that need to be focused on Him more, so sweetly preaching the love of Jesus.

Yes, indeed, milady, it's all about Him, suffering for Him. And, IF, in some way, your life is not suffering for Him now, then, the Lord leads, but I say GET with Him NOW, RIGHT NOW, YOU NEED A CHECK-UP from the soul up, just maybe, pray, pray, there is 'great' joy in suffering, through faith, for Him, and, oh, yes, joy , and, don't forget, mercies, by Him, are 'new every morning.'

Greeny, Im still just waiting upon how suffer is implied in this scripture, my dislexic getting in the way, but the good news is it has me waiting upon Jesus for understanding rather than self or another.

As to suffering for the Lord, as Peter spoke to, to the shedding of blood some days, but this suffering is joy to know that Jesus keeps us all mindful of Him, as Im sure if not, I would easly fall to temptations.
Thankfully Jesus sets His streangth upon us all and His love, so we will find rest in Him, drawing us all closer to the truth.
That we all will mature in His spirit.
So much disagreement here lately, has caused me to pause and consider who is my teacher, and the word as written on my heart.
Wether all is about what one or another claimes, or is the truth that which serves God, and brings each to compleation unto the day of Jesus, glorifying Him!

In Jesus, God bless

pickles

GreenNnice · Jan 30, 2013

pickles said:

GreenNnice said:

Pickledmilady, don't follow me, don't follow grampsK, don't follow cee, don't follow eg, '...you follow Me.' John 21:22

The word 'suffer' is such a word !! Paul does not use it anywhere else in his epistles, I don't think, don't quote me on that, but, yeah, it is SUCH A WORD !! And, I did give my definition of it, a good one it could be, anyway, 'put up with.'

NOw, that said, If the verse reads, ' I do not put up with a woman teaching (over a man) or having authority over a man, but to be silent,' how does this change your understanding . And, keep in mind, I already said that 'over a man' is not Paul saying it in an authoritarian sense, because he then goes on to say having authority over a man, he would be repeating himself, would he not? So, 'over a man' simply means it's most basic understanding, man first choice, and, women, second, this is how I read it and I believe this is the context in which gentle Paul says it.

It is important, too, to note that their is wrongful context when one jumps 1 Cor. 14:34-35 with 1 Tim. 2:12.
I am not a seminary student so it's wrong of me to say what I truly do not grasp, pickled, and, I've heard that 1st 7 chapters of Corinthians are seperate from 2nd 8 chapters and I've heard that Paul is reading what the Corinth elders of the church have put together in bylaws and when he gets to 1 Cor. 14:34,35, which is:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]

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[TD="class: btext, colspan: 2"]

34women should
remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in
submission, as the Law says. 35If they want
to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it
is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

36Did the word
of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody
thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am
writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38If he ignores
this, he himself will be ignored.[SUP]i[/SUP]

After verse 35 , Paul seems to take a contrarian stance to what's just been said, and, again, like in 1 Tim. 2:12 and this is important to keep in mind, Paul ends this set of verses by saying 'everything is to be orderly.'

This is exactly what is said in 1 Timothy 2: 13-15. After telling women they are not to speak over a man (as choice to lead the church when looking for a deacon/pastor), Paul tells the Ephesus church folk that Adam (man) was formed first, and, then, Eve. Eve was deceived (not Adam, but, never forget, Eve did not sin, she was just decieved. The greater crime was the SIN, and, THAT God said Adam did, NOT eve). Anyway, this all speaks of order, milady.

It is all very complicated and I really could delve into it more but someone like crossfyre who could come and explain this idea of Paul having been READING the Corinth leaders of the churches' bylaw words ups to VERSE 36, when Paul says 'What? Did the word of God come only from you?' is for me to ask someone like....

...Crossfyre, who is a seminary student, to answer, in whole. Or, someone else. I do not know the answers to this all, I am humble in having asked others to explain their take on it and, sigh, no one has,

but, I am glad you are 'waiting,' too, milady, the pickled one

[/TD]
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[/TABLE]

GreenNnice · Jan 30, 2013

OK, so, I am a narcissist at heart, I'm bumping my own thread, but, in defense of myself, I don't do that very often, 'course that could be that I'm not seeing a need, the Lord leads.

I bump it why, for your faith to INCREASE, fellow peeples, just maybe this story will speak something to you, I know, some it won't cuz the Spirit is all you listen too, no, no, others can't be led by the Spirit, no such things as miracles. Fine then, obviously, this story is not for you

The Lord leads, and, IF I have one person read how miraculously God worked in my church nearly a decade ago now and it does something for them to understand they CAN become a pastor, or, that there is something surreal showing of God's super, natural power, great. IT is just like heaven, if there are 1000 unbelievers and even if only ONE listens to you tell them about Christ coming and dying for them and believes, then, ALL the angels in Heaven rejoice.

So, just one person reads this story today and it changes their life, then, that is what I hope and pray happens, I am on c.c. for many reasons, but #1 is showing others that God is love by my way of loving others, by serving Him. And, just because I disagree with your doctrine or belief in Christ does, by no means, mean I am judging you and not your friend. That is your choice,and, there is nothing to forgive on my part either because I have never seen anything damaging done, unless you judge me and try to run my 'race' in Him that Christ's set before me/ Then you ARE guilty of being in God's hands, and, being there, in that situation, is NOT a good place to be. It will be better thoiugh, if you WAKE UP! and fear Him, then knowledge will come, as the Spirit leads you away from judgmental truth to 'love' truth and that will bring on 'great' understanding, too

Powemm · Jan 30, 2013

Looking at this from all angles
Im looking carefully at this passage posted .. And simply using discernment to examine it .... not making any statements to or against... but something just seems wrong with thinking God can't use women to preach ... he uses the weak to confound the strong... I'm just trying to work through it ... the part that caught my attention are the first words written in the text ...
"I suffer....." missing all the truth? ,a lie being bought? we suffer when we move away from Christ ....
these are the first words out of His mouth...
I suffer ... we do not suffer in gods full truth ...

Second thing I'm looking at ..." WHO" is stating this? God? And where is this in Gods commandments? I don't see it anywhere ... So is the "I suffer" ( which is the" first" part of this statement,
god? or deception coming from the enemy? the enemy wants to divide, God want as His commandments tell us to do "love". Which is the greatest of all commandments ...

(this is merely one post in our biblical series that addresses 1 timothy 2:11-12. for the others please see:*are women allowed to teach men?,*backdrop of 1 timothy,*women: more easily deceived than men?, and*forbidding women teachers or false teachers?*. for the entire biblical series on women in leadership please go here)
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.”–Paul, 1 Timothy 2:11-12

Paul’s letters are already difficult to interpret because they are like listening to one side of a telephone conversation, but faulty translations only further complicate our understanding of his words. There are a few key words that are conveniently mistranslated in 1 Timothy 2: 11-15.
Hesuchios/Hesuchia: Traditionalists normally translate this word as “silence” (at least in passages concerning women), but the word in all other places is translated as “peacefulness” “Peaceable” or “quietness.” The word does not carry the meaning of literal silence or absence of speech, but of an atmosphere or presence in which learning should take place. Strong’s Greek Dictionary defines hesuchios/hesuchias as “properly, keeping one’s seat,” “stillness” “undisturbed,” “undisturbing,” and “peaceable.”
When Paul has absence of speech in mind, he uses the term “sigao.” The same word is used just nine verses earlier and is translated as “peaceable,” 1 Timothy 2:1-2. Hesuchios/hesuchia is translated as quiet/quietness in 1 Thess. 4:11, 2 Thess. 3:12, 1 Peter 3:4. None of these verses are about silence, as in the literal absence of speech, but a tranquil quietness or peaceable presence/environment. This fits the context much better than a literal silence, since Paul just rebuked the men in the congregation for praying while angry and quarreling. Obviously, this would NOT be the optimum environment for anyone to learn in. Thus, Paul tells Timothy to make sure the woman can learn in quietness or peacefulness, and not amid the chaos that was taking over church meetings.
Paul also instructs that women should learn in full submission. This is not a unique request asked only of women, but men are also suppose to learn in full submission to the gospel and sound teaching. The reason this command is directed toward women here is only because teaching women in the same way as men was still a revolutionary practice and still repulsive to many men, believers or not.
Now, onto the grand-daddy of mistranslations and controversy….
“…nor to have authority over [authentein] a man…”
Exousia is the normal word used for “authority,” a carrying out of one’s official duties. But this is not the word Paul uses here. He instead picks the word authentein and it is the ONLY time this word appears in the New Testament. Exousia, however, appears over 100 times. Other uses of authentein from the same time period show that this word does not simply mean legitimate or routine authority, but carries violent, sexual, and dominating meanings.
Authentein.It cannot be stressed enough how unusual this word is, especially for Paul. Paul writes about authority quite a bit and he never uses authentein as a synonym for legitimate, godly authority. For most mentions of authority, he uses exousia. Louw and Nida’s Lexicon lists 12 common ancient Greek words that are synonyms for routine or legitimate authority, exousia being the most common throughout the new testament. There are 47 words that are synonyms for legitimate “rule” or “governing.” Yet Paul uses none of these words in 1 Timothy 2:11, he chooses the unusual authentein. We do not find any evidence that authentein, in any of its forms, connotates a routine or legitimate authority until the late third to fourth centuries, far too removed from Paul’s era to provide relevant meanings and contexts. And even once the word took on a less severe meaning in later centuries, THIS passage was ALWAYS been understood as Paul forbidding women to dominate a man, not simply exercise legitimate Christ-like authority. Consider these early translations: Old Latin Version from the second – fourth century translates this verse as “I permit not a woman to teach, neither to dominate a man {neque dominari in viro}.

The Vulgate, from the second to fourth century, translates this verse as “I permit not a woman to teach, neither to domineer over a man {neque dominari in virum}.

“There is a basically unbroken tradition, stemming from the oldest version and running down to the twenty first century, that translates authentein as “to dominate” and not “to exercise authority over.”-Linda Belleville
It is not until the 1500s that the verb authentein used in this verse changes from the drastically negatively-charged “to dominate/domineer” to a slightly water-downed phrase, “to usurp authority” (thanks, King James). Still different from exercising legitimate authority, but much less forceful than the violent and even sexual connotations of the original authentein. The King James version asserts that women are not to wrestle authority or seize it from men. No believer is permitted to usurp authority or act in self-interest over others. It is not until after World War II that authentein really gets the botched-translated: “to exercise/assume authority over.” That’s right, less than 80 years ago! So, the notion that women may never exercise godly authority within the body based on this verse is completely unbiblical, both logically and historically.
Exegetical Fallacies in Interpreting 1 Timothy 2:11–15
This is by far the best article I’ve read on 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Linda Belleville, a new testament professor, put together a thorough and compelling paper on 5 exegetical fallacies concerning 1 Timothy 2:11-12 : Contextual/historical, Lexical, Grammatical, Cultural, and Doctrinal. She provides a thorough survey of the early uses of authenteo, in all its forms. This is a MUST read to gain a proper understanding of the egalitarian position. (update: this article is no longer free but has a small charge)
Catherine C. Kroeger also put together a brilliant survey of authentein (and all it’s sister-nouns/adjectives) uses from before Paul up until the third and fourth centuries. I would particularly challenge Tonya and Catrina to read these articles in full before giving me CBMW rebuttals.

These combined articles find that early uses of authentein (in its noun, verb, and adjective forms) collectively mean “criminal mastermind,” “a perpetrator,” “one who slays with his own hand,” “self-murder,” “women who can command domestic and sexual services from their male concubines,” “incestuous sex and murder,” “religious sexual orgies,” “to dominate,” “to control,” “to restrain,” and “to domineer.”
Hardly the meaning we find in modern translations of 1 Timothy 2:11.

One of the earliest meanings to authentein is the act of murder or the act of violence.
Wisdom of Solomon 12:6, an apocrypha book translated into ancient Greek, considered “scripture” by both Jews and Christians until the second century AD, uses a form of authentein.
“With their priests out of the midst of their idolatrous crew, and the parents, that killed with their own hands [authentas] souls destitute of help.”
Ancient Greek grammarians and lexicographers define authentein as “to dominate,” “to control, restrain, and domineer.” It is also classified as a “vulgar” term, possibly because of it’s sexual uses.
Other notable uses of the word include:

Josephus, the famous Jewish historian from Paul’s own time, used the noun form, authenten, to describe the “author” of a poisonous drink. Diodorus of Sicily wrote about the “sponsors” (authentas) of daring plans and the “perpetrators” (authentas) of a crime. John Chrysostom, an early church father, used the same word, authentia to express “sexual license” or perverse sexual practices. Clement, another early church father, linked the word with women involved in sexual orgies.
Catherine Kroeger makes an excellent analysis of the implications of the original meaning of authentein:
“Chrysostom [the early church father] uses autheritia to denote “sexual license.” If the word in this context refers to sexual behavior, it puts a quite different interpretation on the entire passage. For instance, if we were to translate the passage, ‘I forbid a woman to teach or discuss higher algebra with a man,’ we would understand the prohibition to be directed against instruction in mathematics. Suppose it read, ‘I forbid a woman to teach or talk Japanese with a man.’ Then we infer that the injunction applies to the teaching of language. ‘I forbid a woman to teach or dangle a man from a high wire’ would presuppose that the instructor was an aerialist. ‘I forbid a woman to teach or engage in fertility practices with a man’ would imply that the woman should not involve a man in the heretical kind of Christianity which taught licentious behavior as one of its doctrines. Such a female heretic did indeed ‘teach to fornicate’ in the Thyatiran church mentioned in Revelation 2:20 (cf. 2:14f.; Num. 25:3; 31:15f.).
Too often we underestimate the seriousness of this problem for the New Testament church. A passage in 2 Peter expresses concern not only for those drawn into this error but also for the illegitimate children which it produced:
‘But Israel had false prophets as well as true; and you likewise will have false teachers among you. . . . Having eyes full of adultery, that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls, an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children which have forsaken the right way … following the way of Balaam…. They utter big empty words, and make of sensual lusts and debauchery a bait to catch those who have barely begun to escape from their heathen environment (2:1,14f.,18).’”
Others have conducted in depth word studies on authentein with similar results…
Dr. David H. Scholer sites Leeland Edward Wilshire’s exhaustive study of the word authentien.“Wilshire is the first to use the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG) computer database, which contains virtually all three thousand ancient Greek authors from Homer to A.D. 600. The database showed that authentein and its cognates occurred about 330 times and over a large number of centuries almost exclusively meant “a perpetrator of a violent act, either murder or suicide.”
But there is no evidence from the first century that authentein means ordinary or legitimate authority. Nothing exists until the late third and fourth centuries to suggest other meanings, and even then, the verse in question still translates authentein as “dominating men” or “domineer over men.”

Paul is not allowing a woman to teach others to dominate men, to teach the domination of men, nor to dominate a man themselves, but to be peaceable (heshucias). This verse has nothing to do at all with mature, trained christian women exercising their spiritual gifts and serving the body through teaching, preaching, or leading. These were women led astray by false teaching, whom Paul is correcting in these verses and who must start at the beginning with full submission to the gospel and sound teaching.

He ties in the creation story to draw a correlation between Eve being deceived by the voice of false teaching and these women. It is a reminder to the church of the devastating effects of false teaching and deception.
I know someone is going to say, “Well, if Paul is forbidding dominating others as opposed to holding mere authority and it’s wrong for all believers to dominate each other, why does Paul only address this to women?” Consider that HERE IN THIS LETTER, Paul is correcting the ones exhibiting specific behaviors. Consider that Paul only tells the men to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger or disputing. Now, just because he only directs the men here in this verse, does that mean women shouldn’t lift up holy hands? Does it mean women are free to be angry and constantly disputing in or out of church? Of course not. But the men in the body were the ones exhibiting this behavior, so Paul only addresses them, even though it’s inappropriate for all believers to behave that way. Likewise, he only addresses the women about dominating and seizing authority through false teachings, possibly sexual ones, because they were the ones doing it in this instance.

Consider this reality of ancient Greek culture pointed out by Catherine Koeger:
“Virtually without exception, female teachers among the Greeks were courtesans, such as Aspasia, who numbered Socrates and Pericles among her students. Active in every major school of philosophy, these hetairai (high-class, intellectual prostitues) made it evident in the course of their lectures that they were available afterwards for a second occupation. But the Bible teaches that to seduce men in such a manner was indeed to lead them to slaughter and the halls of death (cf. Prov. 2:18; 5:5; 7:27; 9:18). The verb authentein is thus peculiarly apt to describe both the erotic and the murderous.”
It becomes overwhelming clear from the the well-documented culture of Ephesus coupled with the original word meanings used in 1 Timothy 2:11-12, that this mandate is not a prohibition against all women teaching/preaching/leading in the church. It’s simply absurd to keep gifted and qualified women from teaching the truth of the gospel, leading church bodies in the ways of Jesus, or simply contributing their gifts by vocally participating in the gatherings of the entire body because of a verse that was originally a disciplinary action against women at Ephesus. who were lead astray by false teaching.

Powemm · Jan 30, 2013

Lastly... There is ALWAYS. Freedom in Christ .. Always

Powemm · Jan 30, 2013

Something else just came ...

god is a god of balance ... So If only men were to preach this would
Mean that God is swinging way to one side showing favor ...which leads me to

Romans 2:11
11*For God does not show favoritism.

and by believing god swings to one side at any time would make the above statement untrue ...

God is not a man that He should lie

zone · Jan 30, 2013

GreenNnice said:

no ordination for women.

GreenNnice · Jan 31, 2013

What makes you believe 'no ordination for women,' zone ? ? Where in Scripture does it say that women cannot become ordained ministers/deacons/priests. Is the term 'bishop' gender-neutral ? But back in Paul's time, speaking in Timothy, it was UNHEARD of, wasn;t it, ohzone, for a women to be a preacher. Or, if I am wrong, show me where? Unheard of !!! Like the death of saints would have come in this man-dominated time of spiritual awakening to the (spiritual) gifts that were only just beginning, perfectly coming into the age for the time after Paul when the Jewish sects began, etc., to be able to have Christians, in amongst minorities--essenes, pharasees, etc.--who were staunchly AGAINST the faith. The spiritual gifts were given in 1 Corinthians by God to man so that He could PUT ON the whole armor of--OH, sorry, got carried away there. Almost

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kenisyes · Jan 31, 2013

Powemm said:

I'm quoting to show what I'm responding to. This article is worthy or refereed journal publication. I doubt that there is one pastor in a hundred who could have prepared an article this well written, or this well researched and thought through. Whether you agree with powemm's conclusion or not, you will find it hard to take issue with the truth of the references provided.

I feel sad, that you did not sign it, and thus you force us to go to your bio to learn that you are a woman. The very existence of this post proves women can teach.

pickles · Jan 31, 2013

I have often pondered the teaching about women not having athority over man.
Maby simply because of marraige, the man must be the head.
the wife to be treated like the church, the body , and the head guides the body, yet the head needs the body.
Man and woman become one in marraige, one body cannot have two heads.
Yet, the body is what brings all needed to the head, so the head better take care of the body, listening to its needs and its warnings.

Since Eve was made from Adams body? well this is just my ponderings.

But in all that is given on this subject, I do see that marraige has a role and perpose in this teaching, just as Jesus is to us the body, His bride.
As to wether a womman can be a pastor or teacher? God does what pleases Him, so Ill not say all cannot be.
But trust always as Jesus leads me, and in faith, rest all this unto Him.

God bless
pickles

GreenNnice · Jan 31, 2013

The Lord leads, miladypickled

zone · Jan 31, 2013

GreenNnice said:

this man-dominated time of spiritual awakening to the (spiritual) gifts that were only just beginning, perfectly coming into the age for the time after Paul when the Jewish sects began, etc., to be able to have Christians, in amongst minorities--essenes, pharasees, etc.--who were staunchly AGAINST the faith. The spiritual gifts were given in 1 Corinthians by God to man so that He could PUT ON the whole armor of--OH, sorry, got carried away there. Almost

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uh....okay.

no ordination for women.

GreenNnice · Jan 31, 2013

could you point those 4 words out to me in the bible, ohzone

A STORY of life so surreal that it can really be One altering what seemed the way....

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