An honest, non-judgemental, biblically based discussion

[JimJimmers]

I think 1 Corinthians chapter 7 explains it well.
"But and if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she has not sinned."

"But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry."


-JIM

 

[Ariel82]

if premarital sex was allowed then why such a stress on marrying virgins?



<sigh cross posting, had an interesting time of that on the forums most days lol.

Stillwaters, I just take it to mean great minds think alike, lol >

 

[1still_waters]

Still_Waters,
I do see your point, but again you are using an English dictionary to define a greek concept. It's a logical fallacy. If you can find the greek synonym for fornication then that could prove your point. But the fact is the greek synonym is porneia. Porneia doesn't necessarily include consentual sex between committed adults. I do appreciate the scripture reference but again the question is what truly causes the marriage bed to be defiled?

Wait!
You're fine trusting the other given English words given to define the scope of porneia.

In the greek, porneia is "illicit sexual immorality: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, beastiality, incest, sex with a divorced person; metaphorically

Link--->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-biblically-based-discussion.html#post1037625

You stated your source was Blue Letter Bible.

Thanks Ariel. I got my info from blueletterbible.com but from the biblical dictionary they have as a resource. The only difference is that mine said 4202.

Link-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-biblically-based-discussion.html#post1037835

Blue Letter Bible according to you gives these English words to define the Greek word Porneia..
illicit sexual immorality:
adultery,
fornication,
homosexuality,
beastiality,
incest, sex with a divorced person; metaphorically

One of the English words it gives IS fornication.
If you're going to trust BLB to give you the correct English words to understand the scope of porneia, you have to accept the English word fornication they give too.

Now yes, the Greek word that's used for fornication is porneia, so we could go in an endless circle on this.
The circle would look something like this.

1."What's the Greek word given for fornication?"

2."Well it's porneia."

3."Well what English words are given by BLB to explain porneia?

4."Well...these ones...
illicit sexual immorality:
adultery,
fornication,
homosexuality,
beastiality,
incest, sex with a divorced person; metaphorically"

5."Oh it gives various english words to explain it. One of them is fornication. In English fornication means unmarried sex, so porneia applies to unmarried sex."

6."NO NO...you're going off of the English understanding of fornication. You need to go look it up in Greek."

Then from there you'd go to step one and repeat the circle.

If you're going to trust these English words from BLB to define porneia

illicit sexual immorality:
adultery,
homosexuality,
beastiality,
incest, sex with a divorced person; metaphorically...

You have to accept fornication too because that's given also by BLB.
You can't see the English word fornication and then say to go look at the definition of porneia in the Greek to define it, because you already looked and well...THE CIRCLE!

 

[secularhermit]

"...We don't all have to agree, but we all must remember the goal is love."

Based on love, many are free to their consensus and, as human laws permits, we see any can marry same or diferent sexes to have free intercourse.

I believe on the Bible. Some teachings are difficult to understand, and I will be saved from those things I spare my life, FOR GOD´S WILL, and don´t want to be cheated.

 

[kenisyes]

Two cases:

Sex with the person who you will marry (in God's plan) is Biblically consummation of the marriage, regardless of when the ceremony is to take place. This is according to the customs of both the OT and NT periods, and this is why nothing further is said. For centuries the churches claimed that marriage did not occur until the chruch ceremony, and this unScriptural rule is what caused the error in the statement "sex before marriage is a sin." If the two do not later marry, the sin is then that of divorce, in the eyes of Scripture.

Sex with a person other than the one you will marry, is adultery against the person whom you will marry (in God's plan). Just common sense says that it confuses your emotional responses and expectations, and thus leads you expect something from your eventual spouse, other than what God has intended. This is the type covered by porneia, which as you observe, covers a lot more.

These are the two possible "consenting adult" cases.

If one allows that some legal "adults" are still Scriptural babies, then one could also advance a theory of "moral rape". I have known it tried, as when a witch or morally corrupt person attempts to lure a young, untrained Christian from God with sexual spells or wiles. The resulting sex is legal, but is Scripturally rape. The young Christian only thinks he/she is consenting.

 

[notuptome]

The bible does not teach hedonism. The bible does teach holiness and purity. Eph 5 is a good reference. 1 Thess 5:22

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[exbi-savedbygrace]

The greater question is what is God's purpose in sex? If God has purposed sex for pleasure than surely two unmarried persons (bound by no covenant agreement) can fulfill their passions and lusts all they want to. But if sex is designed for a greater purpose then the initial question by the threadstarter has no merit. It wouldn't matter if there was no direct command or not seeing as how it would violate the principle purpose of sex to begin with.

 

[Jordache]

Thank you for your insight Still_Waters...

 

[exbi-savedbygrace]

I think there some points in scripture that are clearer by principle than some things that are clearly professed. It is wrong for a person to abuse narcotics. Nowhere in scripture does it explicitly express this, but we can see an obvious principle from studying the scriptures systematically. The scripture does not speak on paedophilia at all. If you argue that it is covered under porneia then what basis do you have to do that on? By your estimation you cannot call paedophilia sinful. It is subjective to say otherwise In Jewish culture a boy became a man at 13. So a 13 year old boy would be a consenting adult. If you say otherwise you do so based on cultrural subjectivism. with that being said we either have to agree that porneia covers these broader areas, or we have no moral ground to call casual sex, paedophilia, and other forms of inappropriate sexual behavior immoral.

{nOTE: i AM 100 PERCENT AGAINST PAEDOPHILIA I AM JUST TRYING TO POINT OUT THE FLAW IN THE OP'S THINKING}

 

[maxwel]

Well...

I'm not going to have sex with any girl unless she's already married.


Uhh...
actually what I meant to say there was "already married to ME."

Nothing I say today seems to be coming out right.

 

[Jordache]

Good point exbi-savedbygrace. You have correctly pointed out the matter of principle versus explicit teaching.

 

[Ariel82]

The Bible speaks against men having sex with girls who haven't had their period yet.

its in the verses that speak about the "flower of their youth" ............

oh in case someone needs the definition of fornication:

[h=2]Definition of FORNICATION[/h] : consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other

Fornication - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[exbi-savedbygrace]

@Ariel82 for the record I am 100 percent against paedophilia and I know God is also. What I was saying here is that there isn't any explicit teaching on this matter but we don't need it when we study the scriptures systematically. There is no single verse that explicitly pronounces God is triune but through systematic study we see this as biblical. if we use the verse you mentioned alone then one could argue that if an eigt year old begins puberty(which happens quite frequently) then it is lawful to yuck. Or on the principle of consenting adults at whatever stage the culture defines a person as an adult it would be ok. There is no objecitve age to define as adulthood(at least not explicitly). I agree with you Ariel I am just making the point that if we go with Jordaches reasoning we end uo in some scary places.

 

[Jordache]

This isn't really my reasoning so much as my exploration. I am simply trying to develop a solid stance with firm
biblical evidence. I know there is a systematic defense to this argument, but I've yet to see it drawn clearly. Care to take a stab at it anyone?

 

[Ariel82]

lol too sleepy to do it myself.

will you take sermons and website links on the topic?

i can give you a list from research but it will take me a while to tell you if any of them are good or Biblically based.

Maybe someone else has one saved in their archives.

 

[Ariel82]

focus on the family is normally pretty good. here is the website:

Three Lies About Premarital Sex - Focus on the Family

clips I found useful:

Cindy found Scriptures about sexual purity and showed them to him. When Cindy read 1 Corinthians 6:9, 2 Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Hebrews 13:4 and Deuteronomy 22:13-28, all which condemn sex before marriage,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Alice Fryling, in an article titled, Why Wait for Sex? writes:

"Genital sex is an expression of intimacy, not the means to intimacy. True intimacy springs from verbal and emotional communion. True intimacy is built on a commitment to honesty, love and freedom. True intimacy is not primarily a sexual encounter. Intimacy, in fact, has almost nothing to do with our sex organs. A prostitute may expose her body, but her relationships are hardly intimate."
​

Some experts even report that premarital sex short circuits the emotional bonding process.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Perhaps you're asking, "What if, like Rob, I'm guilty of sexual sin?"
The first thing to remember is that no sexual sin is beyond God's forgiveness. Thankfully, He doesn't withhold forgiveness or grace from those who ask for it.
I John 1:9 promises that if you confess your sins, that He is faithful to forgive and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness. Note: This includes all sin, and does not exclude sexual sin. Psalm 103: 12 also promises, "As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions [sins] from us."
In addition to forgiveness, God wants you to embrace His grace that will help you move forward in life and embrace the promises He has for you with joy. In spite of your choices, God wants to bring you relational fulfillment.

anyway that article looked nice. I"m sure there are lots more out there. its just takes time to weed/read through all the not so great ones out there.

 

[Angela53510]

I was just looking in my Greek-English Concordance to the New Testament about this.(Published by Zondervan, 1997)

I find 4 variations on the word πορνεία.

1. Πορνεία - Porneia is a noun, and according the Lexicon means: sexual immorality, adulteries, immorality, unfaithfulness and sexual sin. It is used 25 times. But The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament, for example, in Matt. 5:32 is much harsher.

It says porneia is unchastity, fornication of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse, perhaps even incest.

2. Πορνεύω or porneuo is the verb and means "committed adultery, commit sexual immorality" and is used 8 times, 5 times in Revelation to refer to idolatry.

3. Πόρνη or pornai is another noun, which means prostitute and is used 12 times, again in Revelation 5 times to refer to idolatry.

4. Πόρνος or pornos and seems to be used as a noun, adverb and adjective, used 10 times, none in the gospels.

I also find it strange when someone asks for a "biblical" discussion and then posts no scriptures at all.

If anyone wants, I can give all the references, but I personally don't see the point. I think we can conclude that all these variations basically include anything that is not chastity or lawful marriage between a man and a woman. (Excluding Revelation using it as a metaphor for idolatry!)

 

[Jordache]

Thanks Ariel... Read that article.

 

[mwc68]

What is marriage? A piece of paper? A nice party? What is marriage?

 

[kardiaoangelous]

This is not really a mystery if one understands that the core thought behind all of the various ways pornea is expressed is idolatry.

Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:"

Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."


Every Christian needs to see that it is idolatry to chase after their lusts and not wholly dedicate their bodies as sacred vessels to be used as holy instruments glorifying God.

With that in mind, one can see how easy it would be to rationalize sexual activity between consenting unmarried adults as a guise for having an avenue to step around the need to have complete control of our lust for sex.

Disguising it as OK because, "we are in love and are consenting adults", is a facade of self-deception. No one can say for certain that a legitimate marriage will occur until it does. And if everybody used that excuse there would be many for whom that marriage would not materialize.

Also, simple logic also tells us that to do this sets an unloving example for others to follow which might easily land many of those who follow our example into unwanted pregnancies, sexual diseases, injured emotions which can give rise to crazy things like as the Jodi Arias case highlights, not to mention distracting their attention from off God which even in a small way is idolatry. All of this is so, whether we our self escape those consequences or not.

If you would not recommend your child to have sex by consent, (and you know why you wouldn't as it is dangerous in many ways), then it is a clear violation of love and a hypocrisy toward your child or toward other peoples children, knowing they like to grow up so fast, to have set such an example for them. We must set the example in doing what is proper and good and that requires we demonstrate complete mastery over our lusts.

Back to what Paul spoke of at 1 Corinthians 7:31-36, see that it is about our not being distracted from God. Whatever distracts us has become as an idol between us and God. God has allowed us the avenue of marriage which distracts us somewhat and he will not take kindly to our grasping at more than that as the cause of our lessened attention toward him. And that is not selfish. He is our source of life and must be looked to in all seriousness with out distraction if we would be able to walk after his spirit not side-stepping.