Best answer I could give for the Biblical Worldvew to atheists - please critique

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Jun 30, 2011
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#1
Please read the whole thing before your “holes” I am convinced of these things, just as you are convinced of evolution etc. If you do not read the whole thing, you won’t grasp the entirety of what I am trying to say

Let’s start with a story: Alfred Wagner was a meteorologist who looked at the continents, and saw that they seemed to fit together like puzzle pieces, he also found similar geological features, and fossils near the borders of the continents. This led him to develop his continental drift theory. At the time however the prevailing Paradigm was that the earth was shrinking, which is why it had hills and valleys etc. If you think of a rotten tomato, that the peel itself cracks and bunches up.
We should all know the story of hour Wagner who thought outside the existing Paradigm(box) was harassed and harangued about it. He was called a non-scientist, people would not work with him, and he spent the rest of his life pursuing evidence to prove his theory.
At that time did Wagner and the other Scientists have the same facts? Yes - So what was different? The others started in the Paradigm (worldview) that the majority held. What led to change, going against the paradigm, even though initially it came with great opposition – for more stories like this read Thomas Kuhn – on the revolutions of science – I think that’s the title?
This story is just a quick snapshot of a change in thinking that occurred while in college doing a Science Education paper on “the myth of the Scientific Method” and a history and philosophy of education class – all of these at a SUNY Buffalo – I actually got good accolades for the paper (not using it as a faulty appeal to authority)

What is a worldview? A worldview is easily defined as a way of viewing, and interpreting the world around you. What most people do not however see is that their worldview is based on presuppositions, or things we presuppose to be true without critiquing why we assume these things.
The argument will sound overly philosophical to some – but there is no escape from this because you yourself as a rational thinking being – thinks based of a philosophy of thought based on your worldview. That does not necessarily mean that you act consistent with your worldview

To know anything about the world around you need 5 presuppositions – without them knowledge is impossible.
Laws of Logic – we presuppose that there is a correct form of reasoning. You can’t have A and ~A existing all the time – even though Hegel brought us thesis/antithesis – if you use this reasoning you can say anything.
Absolute Morality – that there is a difference between right and wrong, that any statement asserting a morality is an absolute for instance – there are no absolutes, is an absolute statement. Most Scientific theories have been developed in the Modern times, though we are now in Post-modernism which says there is no truth or truth cannot be known
Uniformity in Nature – As Popper would say – we actively impose patterns on our surroundings. We have an inborn expectation (which doesn’t necessarily prove true) to see patterns – we assume the sun will come up tomorrow, we assume gravity will always work etc.
That your memory is reliable – we assume that our memory works correctly, that we can remember the things we see, that we can remember the memory test we just took
That your senses are reliable – we assume that we see correctly, hear correctly, taste correctly, feel correctly etc
There are more presuppositions, but these are what is required for knowledge to be possible

Does your worldview account for these 5 things?
If you base your worldview on empiricism say – belief that all truth claims can be doe empirically – data driven – can you answer that claim empirically?
If you base your worldview on Materialism – ie that matter is all that exists, that if you can’t touch it taste it feel it, it does not exist – can you touch a law of logic?
If you base your worldview on naturalism – the Laws of nature/matter, and time are all that exist – can you know if your senses are reliable? Are laws of logic part of nature?

The Bible itself presents itself as a way of thinking, contrary to the way the majority of worldviews present. I think everyone can agree that the Bible thinks differently than the majority of people.
So if the Bible is a worldview – does it account for knowledge?
Logic – God imposes logic as a means to run the universe – at the same time He is able to temporarily alter the laws governing the universe—ie miracles
Absolute Morality – God is the author of morality, He says what is Just, and what is right, we all have the knowledge of good and evil because we are made in His image
Uniformity in nature – God has created all things, we are interpreters, we see patterns in nature, we expect patterns, and actively seek them: although they may or may not be true – reason why Scientific Method works but is a fallacy (we are limited and we deceive ourselves)
Reliability of Memory – thought I am finite, I have the image of God, and therefore I can rely on my memory, since we live in a fallen world, my memory can fail, and can be limited
Reliability of Senses – Thought I am finite, I have the image of God, since we live in a fallen world, my senses can fail and be limited as well
Actually the Bible itself only accounts for all 5 presuppositions of a worldview that account for knowledge – for myself this shows that if the Bible is not true, Knowledge is not possible
That’s a bold statement that will be rejected immediately so please read
The Bible presents itself as a worldview – so then what does it say? I won’t use a bunch of verses – and this will be general
That God created all things that He created man and woman in His image, that sin came into the world, and death through sin, as well as cursing the man and woman and creation. That God promised to Eve that someone born of a woman would counter the work from Satan – for he deceived them, that Jesus Christ, would live a sinless life that Adam could not live, and die for sin, and be raised to life. That Jesus Christ will return and set things right – new heaven, new earth, no sin etc.
The Bible does not present man as good, but God only as good. While we might do good things it’s not morally pure in action, and yes many times you find unbelievers more moral than believers. That because God is infinite and Holy, one sin against that God deserves everlasting damnation.
The Bible also states that man is blinded by Satan, and cannot come to know God on his own, that people are opposed to God. The bible also defines love differently – love is not giving us what we want but what we need – Jesus Christ mainly – we didn’t want Him, but He’s the only qualified savior read the whole context of John 3:16-19
In Christ we are justified – forgiven and invited into a relationship – with the Creator in a present cursed world where He makes promises to be with you through the trials of this world, to change you, to use you for His glory and our good purposes.
Ok –
Creation
Let’s go with Kinds – That God created everything after its own kind – Mankind – black people can have babies with white people. Horse Kind – zebras and horses can have zorses – Cat kind – Lions and tigers can have tigon
But why are the offspring usually infertile? - Increased mutation since the fall of man. This is also why when Moses gave the law it included laws against incest, but it was ok for Cain to marry his sister and reproduce – increased time from genetic purity.
Notice I am taking facts we see today and interpreting them in a Biblical Worldview. Also remember The Bible is written for the purpose of knowing God and Godly living – it does not give everything that happened in the world.
Noah’s flood
We would expect to find large tracts of land moved at once and deposited at once over fast areas
Billions of dead things buried rapidly by water all over the world
Huge amounts of sea creatures killed at once, while animals that can semi-swim to swim well(humans) We would find tracks of sea creatures with no sea creature – because they are escaping the rapid sedimentation and die in the next layer

There is more – but I am just giving general examples

Possible answers from arguments – to save time
1) Even if you don’t even believe the Bible you can still know things, because you are made in the image of God.
2) The Bible says it’s the word of God – because an ultimate standard cannot stand on another standard, because it would not be the ultimate standard.
3) Neutral – you can come to evidence without a bias – impossible because all humans have a worldview which entails a bias
4) You can defend the Bible, using the Bible – you can defend a hill while standing on a hill, you can take something out of your eye while using your eye to look.
5) History is not science because it’s not testable, repeatable, and falsifiable – The Bible isn’t a Scientific textbook it’s a history – evolution is about history
6) People cannot naturally have a consistent Biblical Worldview apart from the Holy Spirit – it is not natural.
7) Human faith, and the faith that God gives is different. Human faith for example would be – I hope this airline pilot is good, even though you have no idea of his credentials to fly the plane. The gift of Faith is given by God that enables you to believe Him.
8) Though God desires all to be saved, but all will not be saved – the importance lies with the single individual, then you can worry about others salvation. – ex: if a plane has lost cabin pressure the directions say to put your mask on first, then others – because your no good to others if you are dead
9) God allows Satan, through the choice of Adam and Eve to rule the systems of thinking of the world. This is why it says broad is the road to destruction, narrow is the gate to life and few find it
10) The majority will reject everything I say, try to pick and choose, develop rescuing devices to save their worldview. I get that, I know that, my prayer is that you think and ponder your life, the situation in your life, where is your life going, how do you develop meaning for your life, is it rooted in reality or something you can hold onto? Don’t judge Christianity on its followers because Jesus said Follow Him, not people who say they follow Him. People don’t build the Church, Jesus builds His Church – the only way it’s still around till the end of things
 
Sep 6, 2013
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#3
Does your worldview account for these 5 things?
Yes.
If you base your worldview on empiricism say – belief that all truth claims can be doe empirically – data driven – can you answer that claim empirically?
Yes.
If you base your worldview on Materialism – ie that matter is all that exists, that if you can’t touch it taste it feel it, it does not exist – can you touch a law of logic?
Yes.
If you base your worldview on naturalism – the Laws of nature/matter, and time are all that exist – can you know if your senses are reliable?
Yes.

Empricism is a perfectly reasonable and self-consistent basis for knowledge. Anything else?
 
Sep 6, 2013
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#5
These don't answer the 5 presuppositions at all
Neither did what you put forward as "the Biblical worldview." In fact, your response explicitly repudiates four of the five of them. Let's look and see:

Logic – God imposes logic as a means to run the universe – at the same time He is able to temporarily alter the laws governing the universe—ie miracles
So you don't have actual "laws of logic" - only concepts that work some of the time but can be altered or changed at God's whim.

I'll bypass the Absolute Morality thing as it's not explicitly repudiated in your description as are the other four.

Uniformity in nature – God has created all things, we are interpreters, we see patterns in nature, we expect patterns, and actively seek them: although they may or may not be true – reason why Scientific Method works but is a fallacy (we are limited and we deceive ourselves)
So, again, no guaranteed "uniformity in nature." The patterns we see "may or may not be true," and as above are subject to God.

Reliability of Memory – thought I am finite, I have the image of God, and therefore I can rely on my memory, since we live in a fallen world, my memory can fail, and can be limited
Reliability of Senses – Thought I am finite, I have the image of God, since we live in a fallen world, my senses can fail and be limited as well
So neither your memory nor your senses are reliable, according to you.

If you insist that these presuppositions are necessary or else "knowledge is impossible," then the worldview you have presented does not make knowledge possible.

I disagree that these five presuppositions are necessary for knowledge to be possible, and I claim that empiricism is the most reasonable and consistent foundation for human knowledge.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#6
Neither did what you put forward as "the Biblical worldview." In fact, your response explicitly repudiates four of the five of them. Let's look and see:


So you don't have actual "laws of logic" - only concepts that work some of the time but can be altered or changed at God's whim.

I'll bypass the Absolute Morality thing as it's not explicitly repudiated in your description as are the other four.


So, again, no guaranteed "uniformity in nature." The patterns we see "may or may not be true," and as above are subject to God.


So neither your memory nor your senses are reliable, according to you.

If you insist that these presuppositions are necessary or else "knowledge is impossible," then the worldview you have presented does not make knowledge possible.

I disagree that these five presuppositions are necessary for knowledge to be possible, and I claim that empiricism is the most reasonable and consistent foundation for human knowledge.[/QUOTE/]

Empiricism is quantifiable data and does not take into account qualitative data -

Empiricism is an idea and not quantifiable in itself, the statement "that all truth claims are found empirically" is not found using Empiricism - it's self refuting

if you have no understanding of scripture I can understand why you would argue that

In a naturalistic worldview - there is no evidence but a fault appeal to majority or authority that you evolved correct
 
Sep 6, 2013
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#7
Empiricism is quantifiable data and does not take into account qualitative data -
There's nothing in empiricism that inherently rejects qualitative data. Empiricism simply acknowledges observation and experience as properly basic, and other possible premises or suppositions are necessarily built upon our observation and experience.

Empiricism is an idea and not quantifiable in itself, the statement "that all truth claims are found empirically" is not found using Empiricism - it's self refuting
It's not; it's self-supporting.

if you have no understanding of scripture I can understand why you would argue that
I have a very good understanding of Scripture; that is a large part of why I am an empiricist, because the Bible advocates empiricism as a basis for belief and for confidence in YHWH.

In a naturalistic worldview - there is no evidence but a fault appeal to majority or authority that you evolved correct
There is an overwhelming body of evidence for common ancestry, but this seems to be beside the point.

The point is that you have put forward five presuppositions which you claim are necessary for knowledge, but then you turn around and claim that under the Biblical worldview at least four of these five are not true. How, then, do you account for knowledge in the Biblical worldview if the very premises you claim are necessary are not true under that worldview?