Christian view of death

[john832]

Again, can a soul die?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

In each case the word for die is...

H4191

מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
Total KJV occurrences: 839

It does not mean life in some state of torment, it means dead.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Word for destroy here?

G622

ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Total KJV occurrences: 92

And yep, it means to really destroy completely.

I find it interesting that there are those who think that God is a God of love...

1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

think God takes great delight in burning and tormenting and listening to the shrieks and screams of his children suffereing for all eternity.

The truth is that God love his creation so much that if someone really doesn't want eternal life, that God simply puts them out of their misery and does not allow them to suffer or make those around them suffer for ever.

What is the fate of the incorrigibly wicked?

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[john832]

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[john832]

Lazarus and the Rich Man: Ernest Martin does a much better job of this than I can...

The Real Meaning of The Rich Man and Lazarus by Dr. Ernest Martin

Let me make a couple of observations and ask a couple of questions. If this is not a parable, if this is really the way it is then...

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

They can see each other.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

They can speak to and hear each other.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

They cannot go to the aid of another, not even drip a drop of water on one's tongue.

If this is not a parable, if this is what this really means then...

Mothers in heaven can see their lost children writhing and burning and suffering unimaginable torment. They can hear their screams and shrieks and cries for help and ARE UNABLE TO COMFORT THEM IN ANY WAY!

So, is this what heaven will really be like?

Luke 16 is a parable and the meaning is not what heaven and hell is like.

 

[Straightshot]

It is a parable to illustrate the difference between eternal life and eternal death .... the human spirit either lives on, or it does not

And "eternal" punishment is just that .... no recourse

The spirit "dies" [is extinguished] in the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15]

 

[john832]

It is a parable to illustrate the difference between eternal life and eternal death .... the human spirit either lives on, or it does not

And "eternal" punishment is just that .... no recourse

The spirit "dies" [is extinguished] in the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15]

Take a little time to read the link, it has to do with the people Christ was speaking to.

 

[Straightshot]

It does ... the Lord uses something that they can relate to .... but they still rejected

 

[GuessWho]

Well, let's see now, for whom is this fire prepared?

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Prepared for humans whom God intends to punish for ever and ever? No, prepared for Satan and his demons.

To whom does God say "depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire"?

to those on the left. Who are those on the left? The unrighteous (humans).

The word aionios, meaning belonging to an age, is rendered here as everlasting. What it really means is belonging to the age in which judgment is dispensed, not for ever and ever.

And what's that age? The New Earth and Heaven where God will establish His everlasting Kingdom. If hell isn't eternal than nor is heaven.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The word unquenchable simply means it cannot be put out. This does not mean it burns forever, it means no one is able to put it out. Here is another example of unquenchable fire...

Well guess what? If it cannot be put out is because it's eternal.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

No mention of burning forever here, rather of shame and contempt that lasts eternally. You should be able to take a clue from this verse when it says those who do what? SLEEP in the dust of the earth. They are awakened to their reward...

And you should be able to take a clue from this verse: some will be awake for everlasting contempt.

Death. Not life in some other place of torment but death and death for all eternity..

Those who are separated from God are death. Not unconscious, but as the verses below shown in an eternal frustration, shame and suffering. You really have no clue about the meanings of death.

What are the worms here? The word is "skōlēx" and means maggot. Whoa, wait a minute here, if these are spirits in fire what are these maggots eating? Are the spiritual maggots?

Uhm...do you know what resurrection means? It means you'll have a body.

These are destroyed completely forever. This verse actually shows the fate of the wicked as destroyed completely for ever, not a continuing punishing, but a one time punishment that lasts forever.

And which they will experience forever. So eternal torment.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Tormented with fire and brimstone? Yes indeed...

What is the "yes indeed" supposed to mean?

Punishment, not punishing. The punishment lasts forever. Can we think of anyone else who suffered eternal punishment, eternal fire?
1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now let me ask, are Sodom and Gomorrah burning today? If they still were, that would be some tourist destination wouldn't it?

Or could it be that the the story of Sodom and Gomorrah wants to emphasize something (maybe the abomination of sin) while the verses from revelation want to emphasize something else?

 

[ELECT]

It is a parable to illustrate the difference between eternal life and eternal death .... the human spirit either lives on, or it does not

And "eternal" punishment is just that .... no recourse

The spirit "dies" [is extinguished] in the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15]

Can one get water to give drink there ?

 

[ELECT]

To whom does God say "depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire"?

to those on the left. Who are those on the left? The unrighteous (humans).



And what's that age? The New Earth and Heaven where God will establish His everlasting Kingdom. If hell isn't eternal than nor is heaven.



Well guess what? If it cannot be put out is because it's eternal.



And you should be able to take a clue from this verse: some will be awake for everlasting contempt.



Those who are separated from God are death. Not unconscious, but as the verses below shown in an eternal frustration, shame and suffering. You really have no clue about the meanings of death.



Uhm...do you know what resurrection means? It means you'll have a body.



And which they will experience forever. So eternal torment.



What is the "yes indeed" supposed to mean?


Or could it be that the the story of Sodom and Gomorrah wants to emphasize something (maybe the abomination of sin) while the verses from revelation want to emphasize something else?

What kind of body wil the wicked have ?

If the righteous do not put on immortality can they live forever ?

 

[GuessWho]

If this is not a parable, if this is what this really means then...

What do you understand by parable?

 

[GuessWho]

What kind of body wil the wicked have ?

If the righteous do not put on immortality can they live forever ?

I believe the body of the wicked will have the imprint/signs of their sins.

 

[ELECT]

I believe the body of the wicked will have the imprint/signs of their sins.

the wicked never got immortality therefore they will die it is called the second death

the first death soul does not die but fear Him that can destroy both body and soul in hell fire

 

[ELECT]

If this is not a parable, if this is what this really means then...

What do you understand by parable?

.....

 

[ELECT]

I believe the body of the wicked will have the imprint/signs of their sins.

do you expect someone to really cut off their hand and pluck out their eyes ?

Matthew 18:9-11King James Version (KJV)

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

 

[Straightshot]

"Can one get water to give drink there ?"


No .... the Lord is using a parable to emphasize the horrible fate of the lost who deny Him

 

[GuessWho]

do you expect someone to really cut off their hand and pluck out their eyes ?

Matthew 18:9-11King James Version (KJV)

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

. I believe Christ used it as a metaphor. We can sin with the eyes, our work (hands) and the [wrong] path we go (feet).
So, we should be really careful not to commit sin in our mind (with the eyes) and in our actions.

 

[GuessWho]

If this is not a parable, if this is what this really means then...

.....

I put wrong the quotes. I am asking John832 what a parable is in his opinion.