Circumcision. Physical with Abraham, but spiritual with Moses
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That was before the law was given beginning at Sinai, and I agree, but is circumcision a requirement of the law given to Israel through Moses, and if so in what respect, spiritual, or physical. Please quote scripture. In respect to the New Testament, what is circumcised with that type of New Testament circumcision? Please quote scripture.
"And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.And the Lord said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him in the mount of God, and kissed him."
"And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.And the Lord said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him in the mount of God, and kissed him."
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L
It certainly wasn't a new concept from the OT to the NT
Deuteronomy 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Deuteronomy 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This Old Testament scripture you quote is more comparable with the New Covenant scripture than the physical circumcision. Thanks!!! I would call that a spiritual concept. Physical circumcision of the heart would cause certain death, but is seems as though spiritual circumcision is also related to death of the flesh. Just thought of that today.
The law was always spiritual but the carnal mind often cannot hear what the Spirit is truly saying in it. Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin
The Lord said circumcision was for a token, or "sign" ....
Genesis 17:11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin
The Lord said circumcision was for a token, or "sign" ....
Genesis 17:11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
D
Jesus just said those who circumcise a man (which is circumcision by the hands of men) on the Sabbath were given the same by Moses (which wasnt really of Moses but of the fathers before him). And so after the manner of Moses (as is perscribed in the law) they circumcised a man (with hands) in the flesh so that the law of Moses wasnt broken.
I have nothing more then what is shown in the scriptures with Abraham and his household, the law of Moses or how Paul speaks of the same (and that which is by hands) in the flesh (after one manner) and that which is by the Spirit (in the heart) after another manner.
Its not something us women ever had to worry about (or deal with after the flesh, ouch!)
I was still taken back that a man can become uncircumcised (in his flesh) and I thought, how on earth does that happen?
1 Cr 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
I am not quite sure I know what you might be looking for maybe.
I have nothing more then what is shown in the scriptures with Abraham and his household, the law of Moses or how Paul speaks of the same (and that which is by hands) in the flesh (after one manner) and that which is by the Spirit (in the heart) after another manner.
Its not something us women ever had to worry about (or deal with after the flesh, ouch!)
I was still taken back that a man can become uncircumcised (in his flesh) and I thought, how on earth does that happen?
1 Cr 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
I am not quite sure I know what you might be looking for maybe.
John 1:7
king james version(kjv)
7.)For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by JESUS CHRIST
John 4:24
king james version(kjv)
24.)God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Romans 3:20
king james version(kjv)
20.)Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:1-2
king james version(kjv)
1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2.) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think you probably are looking for this scripture
Romans 7:14
king james version(kjv)
14.)For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
king james version(kjv)
7.)For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by JESUS CHRIST
John 4:24
king james version(kjv)
24.)God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Romans 3:20
king james version(kjv)
20.)Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:1-2
king james version(kjv)
1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2.) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think you probably are looking for this scripture
Romans 7:14
king james version(kjv)
14.)For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
V
It is a highly complex issue without an easy resolution, and not a whole lot of biblical guidance to get us to the point of understanding. However, I believe the threat to "kill" Moses is an allegorical occurrence, God not threatening the physical death of Moses' son. Such a threat violated God's premise of not visiting the father's sin upon the son. Therefore I refuse to believe God would make such a factual threat. But let's look at Moses' life to understand.
Moses had been raised in the house of Pharaoh, educated in the ways of Egypt, but still very much aware of his Hebrew heritage. So much so that, when walking through the fields, he defended a Hebrew man being beaten by an Egyptian, to the Egyptian's death. When, the next day, attempting to stop a fight between two Hebrew men, he realized his deed was known, he fled to Midian. And he fled not just to any house, but to the house of high priest of the people there, and eventually married the priest's daughter.
The religion of Midian was polytheistic. This was the influence under which Moses was raised. First among the Egyptian gods, then among the gods of the Midianites. Yet he still heard the call of Jehovah upon his life. Though he was symbolically with the house of the Midianites, culturally steeped in the ways of the Egyptians, he nonetheless was, at heart, a Hebrew.
Still, he retains great loyalty to Jethro, his father-in-law and longtime priest. Moses has been, at best, a very reluctant prophet to this point, arguing at times vehemently with God about his desire and abilities as the leader of the Hebrews. Obviously, the connection to the old polytheistic religions, and the questions and doubts they muster in his mind, must be severed.
Convincing the Hebrews of Moses' loyalty to their cause, and his qualifications as God's prophet was going to be difficult regardless. His lingering doubts made it even more so. To be recognized as the leader of the coming Exodus, he would need to separate himself from the ungodly religions of his upbringing and of his adulthood. God's threat to "kill" Moses' son was allegorical, again in my opinion, and in actuality a threat to Moses' prophetic calling.
In Job 2:9, we see poetic language in which "kill" does not have to mean causing the end of life. It could refer to the termination of the prophetic status. It is used there in a way in which the shouted words of Job's wife "Curse God and die!" seem to convey this meaning.
Also, in the story of Balaam the angel with the unsheathed sword is much better understood as a threat of killing prophetic ability. At this moment, what God expressed to Moses by threatening to "kill" him is the demand that the prophet dedicate himself totally and irrevocably to the people he is about to lead.
Zipporah, his wife, who stands as the symbol for his link to Midian, is the one who can and does terminate whatever lingering connection Moses may still harbor. The allegoric threat leading to the physical circumcision, carried out by her, terminates her and her sons' symbolic status as a connecting link to Midian. When she performs the only ritual which at that time connects the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to their God she expunges whatever loyalty to his immediate past Moses may still have carried.
Such a seemingly abrupt embrace of total belonging called for additional ritual emphasis. The severed foreskin is held up to express loudly that there is no return; it is held against the legs of Moses which can no longer walk back. The culture and religion of Midian are now reduced to a memory, and Moses’ position as the leader of the new nation of Hebrews is confirmed.
All strictly my opinion. Just FYI.
Moses had been raised in the house of Pharaoh, educated in the ways of Egypt, but still very much aware of his Hebrew heritage. So much so that, when walking through the fields, he defended a Hebrew man being beaten by an Egyptian, to the Egyptian's death. When, the next day, attempting to stop a fight between two Hebrew men, he realized his deed was known, he fled to Midian. And he fled not just to any house, but to the house of high priest of the people there, and eventually married the priest's daughter.
The religion of Midian was polytheistic. This was the influence under which Moses was raised. First among the Egyptian gods, then among the gods of the Midianites. Yet he still heard the call of Jehovah upon his life. Though he was symbolically with the house of the Midianites, culturally steeped in the ways of the Egyptians, he nonetheless was, at heart, a Hebrew.
Still, he retains great loyalty to Jethro, his father-in-law and longtime priest. Moses has been, at best, a very reluctant prophet to this point, arguing at times vehemently with God about his desire and abilities as the leader of the Hebrews. Obviously, the connection to the old polytheistic religions, and the questions and doubts they muster in his mind, must be severed.
Convincing the Hebrews of Moses' loyalty to their cause, and his qualifications as God's prophet was going to be difficult regardless. His lingering doubts made it even more so. To be recognized as the leader of the coming Exodus, he would need to separate himself from the ungodly religions of his upbringing and of his adulthood. God's threat to "kill" Moses' son was allegorical, again in my opinion, and in actuality a threat to Moses' prophetic calling.
In Job 2:9, we see poetic language in which "kill" does not have to mean causing the end of life. It could refer to the termination of the prophetic status. It is used there in a way in which the shouted words of Job's wife "Curse God and die!" seem to convey this meaning.
Also, in the story of Balaam the angel with the unsheathed sword is much better understood as a threat of killing prophetic ability. At this moment, what God expressed to Moses by threatening to "kill" him is the demand that the prophet dedicate himself totally and irrevocably to the people he is about to lead.
Zipporah, his wife, who stands as the symbol for his link to Midian, is the one who can and does terminate whatever lingering connection Moses may still harbor. The allegoric threat leading to the physical circumcision, carried out by her, terminates her and her sons' symbolic status as a connecting link to Midian. When she performs the only ritual which at that time connects the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to their God she expunges whatever loyalty to his immediate past Moses may still have carried.
Such a seemingly abrupt embrace of total belonging called for additional ritual emphasis. The severed foreskin is held up to express loudly that there is no return; it is held against the legs of Moses which can no longer walk back. The culture and religion of Midian are now reduced to a memory, and Moses’ position as the leader of the new nation of Hebrews is confirmed.
All strictly my opinion. Just FYI.
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I find no law that was given to Moses of physical circumcision but the spiritual concept of the heart that is circumcised. Many say the physical thing is the law of Moses, but I have never read that in my Bible. Just thought I had missed something, and wondering where people get that and believe that.
D
I only see it as having any meaning in the Spirit and none in the flesh, it was Jesus that showed they themselves circumcised men on the Sabbath (which is by hands) even as did Paul.
Your OP is "physical with Abraham but spiritual with Moses" Jesus just pointed out that what Moses gave them come of the fathers and they did so after the flesh, even Jesus was circumcised the eighth day also.
There is just circumcision (after the flesh) which isnt anything and uncircumcison (after the flesh) which also isnt anything, the only circumcision that matters is the circumcision of Christ, which is of the heart by the Spirit.
I just didnt understand what it was you were looking for.
Your OP is "physical with Abraham but spiritual with Moses" Jesus just pointed out that what Moses gave them come of the fathers and they did so after the flesh, even Jesus was circumcised the eighth day also.
There is just circumcision (after the flesh) which isnt anything and uncircumcison (after the flesh) which also isnt anything, the only circumcision that matters is the circumcision of Christ, which is of the heart by the Spirit.
I just didnt understand what it was you were looking for.
What Paul is saying is that if you are of Israelie heritage and are circumcised in the flesh don't deny your heritage thinking your circumcision is bad because you trust in the Messiah of the New covenant and are born again by the Spirit. If you are not of the heritage of Israel, and are not circumcised in the flesh, it isn't important to become physically circumcised to be part of the original chosen family through Christ.
This is what I read in the law and the prophet Jeremiah.
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deuteronomy 10:16
And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Deuteronomy 30:6
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jeremiah 4:4
I see all this Old Testament writing quoted above as spiritual circumcision. I don't read anything in the law that was originally given to Moses mentioning this physical practice originating with him as the Old Testament mediator for Israel. I see the law on this subject only to Spiritual reference and understanding, not physical.
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deuteronomy 10:16
And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Deuteronomy 30:6
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jeremiah 4:4
I see all this Old Testament writing quoted above as spiritual circumcision. I don't read anything in the law that was originally given to Moses mentioning this physical practice originating with him as the Old Testament mediator for Israel. I see the law on this subject only to Spiritual reference and understanding, not physical.
And it is the "enmity" of the carnal mind (veil of flesh) Jesus came to abolish in his own flesh, removing the veil from the mind , even the carnal understanding of the outward carnal ordinances.
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but rather the enmity that kept the carnal mind from hearing what the spiritual law was truly signifying all along.
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but rather the enmity that kept the carnal mind from hearing what the spiritual law was truly signifying all along.