Colossians 2:13-19

[kardiaoangelous]

Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

".... that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

That Old Law was "carnal ordinances" used to speak to the flesh to convey the spiritual law of God, but the flesh proved unable to perceive this.

The hope of that dilemma's solution: Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the [spiritual] law of God; but with the flesh the [carnal] law of sin."

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Colossians 2:20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."


"why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to [carnal] ordinances?

There is only one answer and that is they do so because they have not grasped the spirit of that Old Law and so can see no other way to observe it other than by the rote letter.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

That Old Law was God's way of letting man show whether or not man could successfully govern himself when given a law which by spirit was perfect. Thus no man would be able to blame God and say that God kept from them what they needed to know, else they could have done it.

Therefore that Old Law was part of the wisdom of men in the sense that God left it to their wisdom to figure out how to properly apply it. And that Old Law was therefore part of "the rudiments of the world" just as Paul said at Colossians 2:20.

And therefore that Old Law was part of the principalities here spoiled by Christ: Colossians 2:15 "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

Notice how it is even followed through by God's having given us Christ to show how that Law is to be properly observed by spirit through the love of God.

He has not failed to provide the knowledge and understanding we need and no man can ever accuse him of being the fault for their disobedience.

 

[homwardbound]

That Old Law was God's way of letting man show whether or not man could successfully govern himself when given a law which by spirit was perfect. Thus no man would be able to blame God and say that God kept from them what they needed to know, else they could have done it.

Therefore that Old Law was part of the wisdom of men in the sense that God left it to their wisdom to figure out how to properly apply it. And that Old Law was therefore part of "the rudiments of the world" just as Paul said at Colossians 2:20.

And therefore that Old Law was part of the principalities here spoiled by Christ: Colossians 2:15 "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

Notice how it is even followed through by God's having given us Christ to show how that Law is to be properly observed by spirit through the love of God.

He has not failed to provide the knowledge and understanding we need and no man can ever accuse him of being the fault for their disobedience.

Thank you, again for wonderful insight your sharing it

and as Paul said therefore there will be no excuse
Romans 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
2 Corinthians 12:19Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

 

[RedTent]

When I hear men quote this, it always brings my defenses up. Not about God's teaching, but what so many think God is saying.

God used the routines of men in the time before Christ to teach men about His principles. When Christ came we receive the Holy Spirit to help us understand what they taught, and I think He knew we would have the words of the NT to help us understand the spirit of what they taught. We don't need to eat clean foods, now, to understand about being clean. We don't even need the feasts to understand all the things they taught. But when we say that we don't need to learn anymore how they were used, I think we are going too far.

Personally, I use not eating pork in the same way that God teaches to learn through fasting. It is me, personally, doing this by my choice. If I go to week end seminars with my church, it is difficult. If I give up my fast, I am not ridiculed. If I keep it I am judged. I may not let my daughter know of this fast. She would say that Christ wants us to live abundantly, I am using Christ to limit. I know her. She has not learned how fasting can lead to growing in the Lord, so my fast would be used for her harm.

If we were all truly under God's way, it seems to me, I would be free to not have this fast, and I would be free to use this fast in my worship.

 

[zone]

Crossnote's commentary on v.17...
[SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Why live in the shadows when you can live in the Son?

whips out visa to order Crossnote's Commentary.

 

[crossnote]

Both Christ and Paul pointed out that you could eat pig and fast with a big show to people you were fasting, etc. and it not mean a thing toward living in Christ. We are to live in Christ in spirit and truth.

Where does it say that if you include what you do in your daily habits like fasting, what you eat, prayer under God suggestions it can not be part of living in Christ? Except for communion and baptism, every one of our holidays and what we do in our daily routines is not based on any suggested doing in scripture. Many are based on the daily routines and holidays that the pagans Paul went to to tell about Christ practiced. Do you really think that is a better way to worship God?

I worship Jesus Christ the full substance of the biblical types and shadows and it has nothing to do with pagan practices.

 

[crossnote]

whips out visa to order Crossnote's Commentary.

Caveat Emptor Zone...that's as deep as it gets.

 

[zone]

Caveat Emptor Zone...that's as deep as it gets.

does it come with a Latin Lexicon?
cuz to me, that looks like

Caveat, Emperor Zone.
which would be fine.

could you autograph it?

if i call in the next 10 minutes can i get two-for-one (ellie wondered, is all...just Emperor on mine though....gold leaf is nice, embossing would be cool...k...thx)

 

[crossnote]

does it come with a Latin Lexicon?
cuz to me, that looks like

Caveat, Emperor Zone.
which would be fine.

could you autograph it?

if i call in the next 10 minutes can i get two-for-one (ellie wondered, is all...just Emperor on mine though....gold leaf is nice, embossing would be cool...k...thx)

Empress Zone? That could be scarrry. We'll keep it at 'buyer beware' which means even the sale would be suspect.

 

[psychomom]

I hate to break it to you, Kath...but my 20 yo daughter has planned to be Empress of the world since she was 15.

She already has some trusted lieutenants in place, of whom JimJimmers is one.

You'll have to take it up with her, I guess. But beware...she's one of those tiny people, small of stature, HUGE in personality.
Just saying, don't let her appearance deceive you. She's got a lot of staying power.
Hmm..as do you. This should get interesting!

Co-empresses?

 

[homwardbound]

When I hear men quote this, it always brings my defenses up. Not about God's teaching, but what so many think God is saying.

God used the routines of men in the time before Christ to teach men about His principles. When Christ came we receive the Holy Spirit to help us understand what they taught, and I think He knew we would have the words of the NT to help us understand the spirit of what they taught. We don't need to eat clean foods, now, to understand about being clean. We don't even need the feasts to understand all the things they taught. But when we say that we don't need to learn anymore how they were used, I think we are going too far.

Personally, I use not eating pork in the same way that God teaches to learn through fasting. It is me, personally, doing this by my choice. If I go to week end seminars with my church, it is difficult. If I give up my fast, I am not ridiculed. If I keep it I am judged. I may not let my daughter know of this fast. She would say that Christ wants us to live abundantly, I am using Christ to limit. I know her. She has not learned how fasting can lead to growing in the Lord, so my fast would be used for her harm.

If we were all truly under God's way, it seems to me, I would be free to not have this fast, and I would be free to use this fast in my worship.

You are free to choose as well as all others are. Today we being saved consider the other as romans 14 points out
[h=3]Romans 14:7-23[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

If we were all truly under God's way, it seems to me, I would be free to not have this fast, and I would be free to use this fast in my worship.

You are free to.

The only concern is can you? Can you without depending on your own carnal mind to decide what pleases God?

Is it helping you to learn what is pleasing to God through a sense of his love regulating in your heart?

If you say you can then no man can say you cannot. That is not our place to say.

Ours is to encourage that we all get to understand God's love and learn to let it be our complete guide even as Adam before he knew any sin.