Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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You didn't even bother to read 2Tim 1:9, did you? I quoted that passage in my last post because I anticipated exactly the kind of lame response you just gave. This passage says that GRACE was given to the elect BEFORE the beginning of time! As in way BEFORE Christ went to the Cross.
And I already agreed that Grace [in space and time] proceeds from God's Mercy as it did with Prodigal Son; but at the same time Mercy does not require that God subsequently give us his Grace.
I would exhort you to stay tuned for another lesson on Mercy, but I strongly suspect you will freely choose to close your ears and shut your eyes to any truth that doesn't square with any premise, hypothesis or presupposition of yours.
And I already agreed that Grace [in space and time] proceeds from God's Mercy as it did with Prodigal Son; but at the same time Mercy does not require that God subsequently give us his Grace.
I would exhort you to stay tuned for another lesson on Mercy, but I strongly suspect you will freely choose to close your ears and shut your eyes to any truth that doesn't square with any premise, hypothesis or presupposition of yours.
A Deeper Dive Into What Mercy Means
Let's start with a Davidic psalm, then appeal to a couple of supporting passages and then end this discussion with an example from the life of King David.
Ps 103:8-10
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
NIV
Just as compassion and mercy, in scripture, are often paired together (Ex 33:19; Deut 13:17, etc.), so too are compassion and grace (2Ki 13:23l 2Chron 30:9, etc.). And what drives both pairs is God's love. Either his love for his chosen people, or love he had for the Patriarchs, or his great love for the Messiah to come or even his love for justice or for what is good generally. The pagan Persian king Cyrus comes immediately to mind as a prime example of his love for Israel since God raised up Cyrus to be a kind, compassionate, sympathetic and merciful ruler over his people; for it was by his decree that the Jews returned to their Land. And so for the sake of God's chosen ones, He was also merciful to Cyrus himself not only by withholding from this pagan king what he rightly deserved (since he never acknowledged the God of Heaven) but also by bestowing temporal blessings upon him as well.
The emphasis in the passage above is what God did NOT do! The emphasis is more on his "compassion" rather than his grace. The emphasis is on the negatives that are highlighted above. Verse 10 gets to the heart of what some us have been saying for a long time: Mercy (or compassion) do NOT treat us as our sins deserve. Mercy or compassion do NOT repay us as our sins deserve. (David was deliberately redundant in this passage to make this point loud and clear!) The analogy of the earthly judge in my 5100 harmonizes nicely with verse 10! The judge after granting mercy to the criminal, did not have to go beyond that. But if he had, that Mercy would have morphed into Grace.
But we don't have to rely on just this one passage alone. Consider these texts, please:
Ezra 9:13
13 "What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins have deserved and have given us a remnant like this.
NIV
The example of how God dealt with Solomon's sin below teaches us the truth that is stated above:
1 Kings 11:34-36
34 " 'But I will NOT take the whole kingdom out of Solomon's hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who observed my commands and statutes. 35 I will take the kingdom from his son's hands and give you ten tribes. 36 I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name.
NIV
In other words, God did not treat Solomon as his sins deserved. God was merciful to him.
And then this:
Job 42:7-9
7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and NOT deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job's prayer.
NIV
Again, God did NOT deal with Job's three friends according to their folly. He was merciful to them, for he accepted their sacrifices through Job and his prayer and forgave them, but he did nothing beyond that.
One more example -- this one from the life of David. Most of us, I presume, are familiar with David's great sin of the Census-taking. As you recall, Joab was dead set against David's plan and told him so. But the king insisted. After the census was taken, David became very convicted of his sin (2Sam 24:10). He cried out to God to take away his guilt. In other words, to forgive him. To be merciful to him by removing his sin.
As the story unfolds, the prophet Gad visited David and God through his prophet offered David three punishment options: 3 years of famine in the land, 3 months of fleeing from Israel's enemies or 3 days of plague (24:12). David was to choose one of the 3 doors. This is how David responded:
2 Sam 24:14
14 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men."
NIV
David, obviously, believed that God would be merciful to him and not deal with Israel as David's folly deserved. So, he chose the punishment that would come straight from God: a great plague. And David chose wisely, as it turned out. After the angel of the Lord smited 70,000 Israelites and was about ready to bring the hammer down on Jerusalem, God mercifully relented and commanded his angel to "withdraw your hand" (24:16).
David was so convicted of his own sin that he offered his own life and the life of his family in exchange for the Israelites (24:17). David had great faith in God's mercy.
John the Baptist famously said:
John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God , which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV
In other words, Behold the Lamb who forgives the sin of the world -- who takes away the world's guilt. But would forgiveness ALONE
suffice for the sons men? Or would a salvation that entails infinitely more than forgiveness, as great as that is, be required? Could forgiveness alone justify us by imputing Christ's righteousness to our souls? Could forgiveness alone deliver us from sin's relentless power and mastery over us? Could forgiveness alone promise to deliver us from the future presence of all sin throughout all eternity? The answers to all these questios are a resounding NO!!! It took more than Mercy and Compassion. It also takes the POWER of God's Effectual Grace because Mercy alone could never make us God's New Creation. It takes nothing less than Supernatural Power to pull that off! It takes a resurrection from the dead. It takes a new birth from above. It takes a transformed mind. It takes a circumcised heart. It takes a New Creation.
Here is a Maxim we can all take to the bank: God's Grace Begins Where His Mercy Ends; but the latter never necessitates the former.
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began
^
This is the "Result" of the Mercy of God that sent Jesus to the Cross.
Mercy before Grace is always the order throughout scripture.
^
This is the "Result" of the Mercy of God that sent Jesus to the Cross.
Mercy before Grace is always the order throughout scripture.
I actually agree with that in principle, as stated previously. However, one could reasonably look at Grace and Mercy in two different ways and still reach the conclusion you and I have. One could say, as I intimated in my 5104, that Grace, the superlative expression of God's love, flows from Mercy. Grace, therefore, is superior to Mercy because it bestows a positive, ongoing benefit on its objects. On the other hand, one could reasonably posit that Mercy is subsumed under Grace and is its most basic, rudimentary expression, since it withholds from its objects what they justly deserve. This would be the Paradoxical viewpoint. Since Grace always gives something to its objects, one could say that Mercy, too, is given to its objects; and, therefore, flows from Grace instead of the other way around. But, again this Mercy would be the most basic expression of God's Grace, since the biblical emphasis on Mercy is what it doesn't give to sinners, i.e. JUSTICE or at least the full measure of it. And therein is the Paradox: Grace gives Mercy to undeserving sinners by not giving what them what they deserve. Therefore, there would be a sense in which sinners do benefit [positively] by God's Mercy in that they escape the brunt of his righteous anger.
But because Grace goes far beyond Mercy, its objects actually reap positive, ongoing benefits that go far beyond forgiveness or the mitigation of God's justice. Therefore, I totally disagree with you that the Cross of Christ is a result of God's mercy! God certainly wasn't merciful to his Son on the Cross. Nor is the Cross an expression of God's mercy to his elect. Biblically speaking, the Cross is the quintessential expression of both God's love toward the elect (Rom 5:8) and a demonstration of his inevitable coming day of justice for all sinners (Rom 3:24-26). (Many translations substitute [God's] "righteousness" for justice; but justice and righteousness are two different sides of the same coin. And I prefer the rendering "justice" in the NIV because it fits the context better.) Anyhow...if God could not save the world by sparing his own Son from his righteous indignation, then how much more will God pour out his wrath upon all unrepentant sinners?
John 3:16, therefore, is the ultimate expression to the world of God's Grace; for God, by that Grace, gave up his Son to all those in the world who would believe on him. He offered up his Son. He sacrificed his Son for all those who would believe on him. The Cross Work of Christ provides many positive, ongoing benefits to all believers-- not only in this life, but in the next one to come. In short, Jesus Christ is God's gift to the World that keeps on giving and giving and giving with no end ever in sight! And this fact speaks most poignantly and pointed to what Grace is all about. It's all about God's heart and how he was willing to GIVE EVERYTHING to his people and withhold no good thing from them to secure their salvation. The Cross goes far, far beyond "mere" forgiveness or the restraining of God's justice.
Perhaps Peter sums up best what I have just tried to express in the last paragraph:
2 Peter 1:3-4
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
NIV
And if we substitute "grace" for power, it would not change the sense of the passage in the least. Since God did not withhold his only Begotten Son from his people...since He has already made the Supreme Sacrifice... then why would he possibly hold back from us anything less!?
But because Grace goes far beyond Mercy, its objects actually reap positive, ongoing benefits that go far beyond forgiveness or the mitigation of God's justice. Therefore, I totally disagree with you that the Cross of Christ is a result of God's mercy! God certainly wasn't merciful to his Son on the Cross. Nor is the Cross an expression of God's mercy to his elect. Biblically speaking, the Cross is the quintessential expression of both God's love toward the elect (Rom 5:8) and a demonstration of his inevitable coming day of justice for all sinners (Rom 3:24-26). (Many translations substitute [God's] "righteousness" for justice; but justice and righteousness are two different sides of the same coin. And I prefer the rendering "justice" in the NIV because it fits the context better.) Anyhow...if God could not save the world by sparing his own Son from his righteous indignation, then how much more will God pour out his wrath upon all unrepentant sinners?
John 3:16, therefore, is the ultimate expression to the world of God's Grace; for God, by that Grace, gave up his Son to all those in the world who would believe on him. He offered up his Son. He sacrificed his Son for all those who would believe on him. The Cross Work of Christ provides many positive, ongoing benefits to all believers-- not only in this life, but in the next one to come. In short, Jesus Christ is God's gift to the World that keeps on giving and giving and giving with no end ever in sight! And this fact speaks most poignantly and pointed to what Grace is all about. It's all about God's heart and how he was willing to GIVE EVERYTHING to his people and withhold no good thing from them to secure their salvation. The Cross goes far, far beyond "mere" forgiveness or the restraining of God's justice.
Perhaps Peter sums up best what I have just tried to express in the last paragraph:
2 Peter 1:3-4
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
NIV
And if we substitute "grace" for power, it would not change the sense of the passage in the least. Since God did not withhold his only Begotten Son from his people...since He has already made the Supreme Sacrifice... then why would he possibly hold back from us anything less!?
The reason I pray to God to have Mercy upon me is because His Act of Mercy, in what He does to impact and change my situation, results into the overflow of Grace in my life. The ancient Hebrew/Jews understood this and why we see their usage of Mercy the way we do. They gave us a roadmap to see God work in our lives beyond our salvation and needs met.
How you personally perceive Mercy doesn't change the biblical perspective of it. There are two irrefutable facts about Mercy and Grace:
Mercy emphasizes what God does not do to sinners even though they deserved worse.
Grace emphasizes what God does to or for undeserving sinners.
It's that's simple. I can explain it to you but I can't make you understand it.
The sin of David in taking the census is a great illustration of Mercy. God could have also punished Jerusalem but instead commanded his angel to stay his hand. Mercy never measures out the full extent of punishment a sinner rightly deserves.
Mercy emphasizes what God does not do to sinners even though they deserved worse.
Grace emphasizes what God does to or for undeserving sinners.
It's that's simple. I can explain it to you but I can't make you understand it.
The sin of David in taking the census is a great illustration of Mercy. God could have also punished Jerusalem but instead commanded his angel to stay his hand. Mercy never measures out the full extent of punishment a sinner rightly deserves.
I can look at my situation and determine by the Holy Spirit what is needed.
1. If I am in the valley like David's 23rd Psalm or Job, I need God's Mercy
2. If I am in line for a promotion on a job I need Gods Favor which is Grace.
But in the example of the "valley or Job," the Mercy God had resulted in Favor which is Grace (we know how Job was restored and given more than he had lost)
1. If I am in the valley like David's 23rd Psalm or Job, I need God's Mercy
2. If I am in line for a promotion on a job I need Gods Favor which is Grace.
But in the example of the "valley or Job," the Mercy God had resulted in Favor which is Grace (we know how Job was restored and given more than he had lost)
Actually, I'm a wee bit inclined to think that the All-Wise, Omniscient God who knows our hearts better than we could ever know our own would be in much better position to know exactly what each us needs. When I look "at my situation", I tend to pray for his help, his guidance, his wisdom, his leading, etc.
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