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T
I have thought a dispensational view of the bible is correct for a few years now especially when understanding the differnce between
the church and Israel. but I noticed a few people on this site who seem to disagree but due to the other things they say about dispensations
I'm not sure they fully understand what it means
the church and Israel. but I noticed a few people on this site who seem to disagree but due to the other things they say about dispensations
I'm not sure they fully understand what it means
H
I believe That God has lead the human race through several dispensations as He unfolds His Eternal covenant of Grace. God's eternal plan is most clearly seen in Rom. 8:29-30 , This is God's golden chain of salvation. 1. God's is eternal love, He loves some,= "foreknew". 2. God chose them to salvation,= "predestined". 3. God gives them birth into His family,= "called". 4. God forgives them,= "Justified". 5. God sees them as perfect,= "Glorified", in eternity with Jesus on the new earth for ever. The end of time. I am often asked, Who are the elect? Good question, easy answer, all the people God has chosen, from all eternity, to save. We don't know who they are. We can not add or substrate from their number.That secret belongs only to God. NOW, to begin our study of election, we need our Bible, our dictionary and our Bible exhaustive concordance. You may use a Bible dictionary, but remember it was written by men, don't always trust it. The Webster dict. is helpful also. I need a brake, see you later, Hoffco
B
A simply overview of the scriptures would confirm that a dispensational understanding of the scriptures is beneficial and not destructive. I don't know why so many have a problem with it the way they do. I see Israel and I see the church and have no problem seeing how God has dealt with each before the cross and after the cross. I see both as elect companies that God has chosen and I see Christ as the Messiah and as the head of the church. Israel was a promised seed and the church was a mystery body called out of both Jew and Gentile. Israel looked forward to Christ's first coming to restore the kingdom but rejected and crucified him and when he comes a second time they will see him and believe upon the one they had pierced. He will be merciful to their unrighteousness and will make a new covenant with them not according to the one he made with them when he lead them out of Egypt. He will be to them a God and they will be to him a people. This is all full of the promises of God and a testimony of God's faithfulness to this elect company. The Son has an elect company that he has adopted and redeemed with his blood from all nations who belong to him who will be his bride. This is that mystery company of Christ and the church that he has called and redeemed with his own blood. This is not Israel that was called out of Egypt but it is the body of Christ that was called out of the power of darkness and into the kingdom of God's dear son. This calling out of Jew and Gentile did not do away with or supplant Israel but rather accomplished the purpose of God to reach the Gentile nations with the gospel of Christ crucified and provoking Israel to jealousy. Israel has remained blinded in part so that this could happen and will continue that way until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:25-28
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Rom 11:25-28
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
H
The key to understanding a book is to read the end first, But some people don't like to cheat LOL so they start at the beginning. That is good with Bible but if we get some ice cream and cake first it makes the veggies go down better. If we get hung up on the mysteries and shadows and rules,laws of sacrifice, it can a pain in the butt. So in evangelizing we want the sinner to hear the good news right a way. but then we must go to creation and the law to bring the conviction for sin, so they can understand and appreciate Jesus all the more. We always recommend reading some O.T. with the N.T.. I skip a lot of the O.T. now as I read the better parts. The temple rules are a pain, almost useless for us today, except for illustrations to point to Jesus.. The N.T. is a beautiful concert and the O.t. is chop sticks. SORRY,the O.T. is beautiful, now that we don't have to obey it all.
I know The New testament is God's interpretation of the Old Testament, So when I read the old in light of and with the New, I love it. I preach out of the O.T. a lot. God gave us His Word and only God can tell us what it is all about. 2Pet.1:20-21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." I will post this before I lose it. Hoffco
I know The New testament is God's interpretation of the Old Testament, So when I read the old in light of and with the New, I love it. I preach out of the O.T. a lot. God gave us His Word and only God can tell us what it is all about. 2Pet.1:20-21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." I will post this before I lose it. Hoffco
T
Brad as far as you explained I would certainly agree with you. this is the view that makes sense in the bible when read with a literal, historical and contextual . and this is the way I believe the bible should be read. I would also lean to there being seven dispensations and at the moment we are in the age of grace. I have still not heard a valid objection from someone with good understanding of dispensations of why it shouldn't be so.
T
Brad as far as you explained I would certainly agree with you. this is the view that makes sense in the bible when read with a literal, historical and contextual . and this is the way I believe the bible should be read. I would also lean to there being seven dispensations and at the moment we are in the age of grace. I have still not heard a valid objection from someone with good understanding of dispensations of why it shouldn't be so.
H
One BIG problem I have with the present dispensationalists,(properly all of them), is they think the Church of Jesus is separate from the elect of the Old T.. This a big error. Jesus taught in Jh. 10:16 that the two flocks will be made one. with Him as the only Shepherd. also Read Rev.21:1-14 This tells us that The O.T. and the N.T. saints will be together in the New Jerusalem.
An other BIG error is that they parallel the nation of Israel with the Church. They make or excuses a lot of carnality in the Church. The nation of Israel is set as the standard for the Church. They were wicked so we expect the Church will and can get away for being so wicked, I mean, hey, look how wicked the "People of God" were in the O.t. How can we expect the Church of Jesus ,The " People of God", to be any different? That is a wicked parallel! The real parallel is: Israel was the nominal people of God( saved and lost people): as the church(visible church) is the professed people of God(lost and saved),mixed in one organization. The real spiritual saved Jews of the O.T. are really a part of the Church of Jesus Christ.
More later,love to all. Hoffco
An other BIG error is that they parallel the nation of Israel with the Church. They make or excuses a lot of carnality in the Church. The nation of Israel is set as the standard for the Church. They were wicked so we expect the Church will and can get away for being so wicked, I mean, hey, look how wicked the "People of God" were in the O.t. How can we expect the Church of Jesus ,The " People of God", to be any different? That is a wicked parallel! The real parallel is: Israel was the nominal people of God( saved and lost people): as the church(visible church) is the professed people of God(lost and saved),mixed in one organization. The real spiritual saved Jews of the O.T. are really a part of the Church of Jesus Christ.
More later,love to all. Hoffco
H
In the light of this universal error, that the nation of Israel parallels the Church of Jesus Christ, the verse in 2Chron.7:14 is always miss interpreted. "If My people" (the real saved ,people of God), no way hosa, The real interpretation should be: "IF my people"(who are wicked and lost,going to Hell, would repent, I would save them) And the real application to the church today is, If you don't repent , I will come as a thief and send you to Hell. It is wicked how pastor excuse carnality. Hoffco
Eph 3v9-11 is an interesting Scripture to look at:
KJV: 'And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord'
YLT: 'and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ, that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God, according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord.'
AMP: ' Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan [regarding the Gentiles and providing for the salvation of all men] of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus. [The purpose is] that through the church the complicated, many-sided wisdom of God in all its infinite variety and innumerable aspects might now be made known to the angelic rulers and authorities (principalities and powers) in the heavenly sphere. This is in accordance with the terms of the eternal and timeless purpose which He has realized and carried into effect in [the person of] Christ Jesus our Lord.'
Holman CSB: 'and to shed light for all about the administration of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things. This is so that God's multi-faceted wisdom may now be made known through the church to the rulers and authorities in the heavens. This is according to the purpose of the ages, which He made in the Messiah, Jesus our Lord.'
'According to the eternal purpose' in Greek is 'kata prothesin toon aioonoon' can be translated, 'According to the purpose of the ages,' God's purpose runs on through the 'ages'...i.e.' age of Law (Eph 3v2, John 1v17), age of Grace and so forth...Matt 28v20 (YLT 'full end of the age'), Eph 1v21 (YLT: 'not only in this age, but also in the coming one'), Heb 6v5 (YLT: 'the powers also of the coming age')...and so forth.
KJV: 'And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord'
YLT: 'and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ, that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God, according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord.'
AMP: ' Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan [regarding the Gentiles and providing for the salvation of all men] of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus. [The purpose is] that through the church the complicated, many-sided wisdom of God in all its infinite variety and innumerable aspects might now be made known to the angelic rulers and authorities (principalities and powers) in the heavenly sphere. This is in accordance with the terms of the eternal and timeless purpose which He has realized and carried into effect in [the person of] Christ Jesus our Lord.'
Holman CSB: 'and to shed light for all about the administration of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things. This is so that God's multi-faceted wisdom may now be made known through the church to the rulers and authorities in the heavens. This is according to the purpose of the ages, which He made in the Messiah, Jesus our Lord.'
'According to the eternal purpose' in Greek is 'kata prothesin toon aioonoon' can be translated, 'According to the purpose of the ages,' God's purpose runs on through the 'ages'...i.e.' age of Law (Eph 3v2, John 1v17), age of Grace and so forth...Matt 28v20 (YLT 'full end of the age'), Eph 1v21 (YLT: 'not only in this age, but also in the coming one'), Heb 6v5 (YLT: 'the powers also of the coming age')...and so forth.
I believe the separation of Israel and the new testament church is a false teaching. We are all one in one body, not divided into separate dispensation. The following video is from 119 ministries titled "Grafted in"' Grafted In? (28 min) on Vimeo.
B
The unbelieving Jews of Israel have been cut off as a natural branch and need to be graffed back in. The Gentiles came from a wild olive tree and were graffed into the good olive tree when they believed. Paul is the one that makes the distinction. The Israel that has been cut off as a natural branch will remain that way until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and been graffed into the good olive tree. That is the only separation that is apparent at this time. The believing Jews of Israel are part of the body of Christ along with the Gentiles and they are one with the middle wall of partition broken down and having made peace through the blood of the cross. Those of Israel in unbelief (not the church) are under a partial blindness and will not come out of that blindness until the second coming of Christ. Then shall they see him who they pierced and will come out of their unbelief. God will be merciful to their unrighteousness and deliver them with a great deliverance. The church has already been delivered and translated from the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear son. The church has Christ as it's head but Israel will have him as their Messiah. That is not a separation but a distinction where God will be glorified and his son will be magnified both in the church and in Israel for they shall be God's people once again.
R
i don't subscribe to dispensationalism...for two reasons...
first of all according to dispensationalism...at least as scofield explained it in his reference bible...God had a different set of rules and expectations for humanity in each historical dispensation...and i don't believe that... i believe that salvation by grace through faith has been the rule all through history...
and secondly it seems to be accepted in dispensationalism that God revealed things to humanity in big self contained chunks at different stages of history...but from my study of the bible it appears more like the details of God's plan were revealed gradually and continually throughout history...
first of all according to dispensationalism...at least as scofield explained it in his reference bible...God had a different set of rules and expectations for humanity in each historical dispensation...and i don't believe that... i believe that salvation by grace through faith has been the rule all through history...
and secondly it seems to be accepted in dispensationalism that God revealed things to humanity in big self contained chunks at different stages of history...but from my study of the bible it appears more like the details of God's plan were revealed gradually and continually throughout history...
B
Just a simply common sense approach. Would God have the same expectations of men who lived 500+ years or more as those who today live 80 years? What about the genetic pool of man that continually has been polluted from the beginning of the fall? Why did God wink at the times of ignorance but now commands that men repent everywhere? Did God put the church and body of Christ under the law of Moses as he did the children of Israel after being delivered from Egypt being driven into the wilderness? If a believer commits adultery do we stone both parties or when sin abounds grace does much more abound? Do we have kings and judges reign over us as a body of God's elect or have we been made priests so that we can judge ourselves and boldly come to the throne of grace and obtain mercy as an individual? These are a few things that can be considered as to how God deals with people with understanding, patience, longsuffering and with a love that goes beyond knowledge. Many believers have written off the nation of Israel and its people, but God has done no such thing and they will once again be to him a people and that it what God has promised.