Divorce???!

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T

Tobby17

Guest
#1
I guess there are probably over a million thread about this Topic, so sorry if i'm just repeating the same thing.. It's just that i'm confused when i see Christians here advising another to divorce his wife or husband. I just saw one lately and it kind of stirred up the topic again!.

Sorry, But is the bible not against Divorce?.. I think Matt 19:8-9 is against divorce, same with Matt 5:32!.I thought 1Thessalonians 5:22 says what God joins together let no man separate???.. I think Divorce is only permitted in case of infidelity right?..

If there are any other conditions that permit Divorce stated in the bible, i think i need to know them. And the bible verses too.. I'm not going to argue with anyone on this.. Once again, i'm just confused that's all...:confused::confused:
 
S

Slepsog4

Guest
#2
Marriage should not be taken lightly, and neither should divorce. Our culture is making in roads among the ranks of believers.

God is pro-marriage making; Satan is pro-marriage breaking.

One should be extremely cautious about recommending divorce.
 
R

Rozzet2

Guest
#3
I have read the bible clearly and according to my own understanding, God hates Divorce.It is only allowed where one partner is unfaithful, and in that case, one should not re-marry, unless one partner dies.I am also confused, and wish God could reveal to me more about this.Most Christians today are encouraging Divorce, and going to an extent of re-marrying.Does the bible advice this??
 
C

chiclet01

Guest
#4
Whoa... did this thread get posted twice? LOL.

Anyways. My thoughts on the topic are in the other thread with this title. =)
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#5
I'm probably going to not be liked for this, but I think John Piper has it spelled out pretty plainly for us on this matter.

John Piper said:
Rather it is determined by the fact that:

Marriage is a "one-flesh" relationship of divine establishment and extraordinary significance in the eyes of God (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5; Mark 10:8),

Only God, not man, can end this one-flesh relationship (Matthew 19:6; Mark 10:9—this is why remarriage is called adultery by Jesus: he assumes that the first marriage is still binding, Matthew 5:32; Luke 16:18; Mark 10:11),

God ends the one-flesh relationship of marriage only through the death of one of the spouses (Romans 7:1-3; 1 Corinthians 7:39),

The grace and power of God are promised and sufficient to enable a trusting, divorced Christian to be single all this earthly life if necessary (Matthew 19:10-12,26; 1 Corinthians 10:13),

Temporal frustrations and disadvantages are much to be preferred over the disobedience of remarriage, and will yield deep and lasting joy both in this life and the life to come (Matthew 5:29-30).
Divorce & Remarriage: A Position Paper - Desiring God <--- for more



Whether you agree or not on how sinful divorce is or is not, the issue I think everyone needs to admit to, is that divorce is almost equal amongst evangelicals in America. Not exactly a good statistics.
 
C

chiclet01

Guest
#6
So... if a person kills their spouse (because of infidelity, abandonment, or abuse), gets away with it, repents, and then remarries, they're okay. But... if a person divorces their spouse for those reasons and remarries... they're living in sin and not welcome in the Kingdom of God.

Got it. Doesn't sound like a Pharisee-like argument at all. =) You know, like throwing your shoe on the Sabbath so you can walk to go retrieve your property and therefore travel, despite the laws not to.

All I am and have been saying is that while God hates divorce, He also hates ANY sin. And the elevation of divorce and remarriage to what it has become is nothing more than a Pharisee mindset of judging something because it seems easy and obvious to judge.

In the same passage of 1 Corinthians (Chapter 7) where Paul tells you to remain single, he also tells all of the believers to remain as they were when they were called. He tells slaves not to worry about being slaves BUT if they can be free, take the opportunity. So he both says to remain and then to NOT remain. As I've said in other threads, the word there is not necessarily referring to a permanent state, but rather to rest in your current state, trusting God, rather than rushing off in your own power to try and change it.

Also, in that same chapter, he says that "Because of this present crisis, I think it is best to remain as you are." You can't just chop up the chapter and take the parts that fit your point. This was a letter. It was written as a whole thought, not in verses. You have to read all of the chapter and put it in context as a whole text and historically. That doesn't change the truth of what was written. But it may change your understanding of what was written.

If a man or woman is unfaithful or abusive to their spouse or leaves them entirely, and a divorce results... it is a tragedy. It is evidence of a broken world and us broken people who live in it. It hurts the heart and soul of those involved because they were joined as one. I know because I'm living it right now. But it is not unforgivable. To say that something is too big for God's forgiveness is to limit God, and I'm not about to do that.

Now, one thing I absolutely can agree to is that the frequency of divorce is horrible. Christians and non-Christians alike. And far too many use divorce as an "easy-out". I think that the desire to place hard and fast rules on it is a result of people who truly desire God trying to compensate for that "easy-out" mindset. However, we must be careful to not try to fit every situation into the same mold. We must use discernment for each situation, just as Jesus told us to.

John 7:10-24. Verse 24: "Look beneath the surface so that you can judge correctly."
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#7
So... if a person kills their spouse (because of infidelity, abandonment, or abuse), gets away with it, repents, and then remarries, they're okay. But... if a person divorces their spouse for those reasons and remarries... they're living in sin and not welcome in the Kingdom of God.

Got it. Doesn't sound like a Pharisee-like argument at all. =) You know, like throwing your shoe on the Sabbath so you can walk to go retrieve your property and therefore travel, despite the laws not to.

All I am and have been saying is that while God hates divorce, He also hates ANY sin. And the elevation of divorce and remarriage to what it has become is nothing more than a Pharisee mindset of judging something because it seems easy and obvious to judge.

In the same passage of 1 Corinthians (Chapter 7) where Paul tells you to remain single, he also tells all of the believers to remain as they were when they were called. He tells slaves not to worry about being slaves BUT if they can be free, take the opportunity. So he both says to remain and then to NOT remain. As I've said in other threads, the word there is not necessarily referring to a permanent state, but rather to rest in your current state, trusting God, rather than rushing off in your own power to try and change it.

Also, in that same chapter, he says that "Because of this present crisis, I think it is best to remain as you are." You can't just chop up the chapter and take the parts that fit your point. This was a letter. It was written as a whole thought, not in verses. You have to read all of the chapter and put it in context as a whole text and historically. That doesn't change the truth of what was written. But it may change your understanding of what was written.

If a man or woman is unfaithful or abusive to their spouse or leaves them entirely, and a divorce results... it is a tragedy. It is evidence of a broken world and us broken people who live in it. It hurts the heart and soul of those involved because they were joined as one. I know because I'm living it right now. But it is not unforgivable. To say that something is too big for God's forgiveness is to limit God, and I'm not about to do that.

Now, one thing I absolutely can agree to is that the frequency of divorce is horrible. Christians and non-Christians alike. And far too many use divorce as an "easy-out". I think that the desire to place hard and fast rules on it is a result of people who truly desire God trying to compensate for that "easy-out" mindset. However, we must be careful to not try to fit every situation into the same mold. We must use discernment for each situation, just as Jesus told us to.

John 7:10-24. Verse 24: "Look beneath the surface so that you can judge correctly."
Well divorce and remarriage are serious issues. Put frankly there is no way that a valid marriage can be dissolved by a divorce, and if one partner divorces the other and then remarries they are living in adultery. Now adultery is forgivable but that would involve repenting which means the person would have to divorce their new spouse.

Divorce simply isn't something thats part of the New Covenant, and there's no way we can allow it just because we're fallen creatures. Thats why it was allowed in the OT Law, but the NC has abolished that.
 
H

hislastwalk

Guest
#8
keep in mind, we all have committed adultery.. js. Jesus said anyone who looks with lust in their heart has already committed it. Divorce is always bad, but God doesn't expect a woman to stay with a man who is abusing her. He's given us enough sense.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#9
keep in mind, we all have committed adultery.. js. Jesus said anyone who looks with lust in their heart has already committed it. Divorce is always bad, but God doesn't expect a woman to stay with a man who is abusing her. He's given us enough sense.
I'm not saying a woman can't leave her husband if he's abusive. What I'm saying is the fact that he was abusive does not dissolve the marriage.

What God hath joined together let no man put asunder and all that.
 
C

chiclet01

Guest
#10
You quoted my entire post... but addressed none of it. Did you actually read it, or just decide to post the same general argument that is misquoted so often?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#11
Santo, I for one am appreciative of the RCC approach to marriage. While I certainly disagree with some of the things I would consider to be beyond the matter (witholding communion), I am glad that someone appreciates the sanctity of marriage.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#12
You quoted my entire post... but addressed none of it. Did you actually read it, or just decide to post the same general argument that is misquoted so often?
Nope it actually addressed what you said quite well. Basically your post equated divorce to any other sin (which in essence it is unless you remarry) and proceeded with some verses about proper judgement and how the rules should be flexible (which is actually a terrible idea since people will abuse this "flexibility"). Finally you justified divorce (and remarriage) by saying that if we say God can't forgive it we are limiting God (which I addressed in my post when I said God can forgive it but we must repent and cease to live in adultery).

Quite simply not one of the verses you used dealt with marriage. The only verse in the NT that deals with divorce explicitly forbids it except for one exception that no one has ever managed to agree upon. And thats all there is to it, divorce is forbidden.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#13
Santo, I for one am appreciative of the RCC approach to marriage. While I certainly disagree with some of the things I would consider to be beyond the matter (witholding communion), I am glad that someone appreciates the sanctity of marriage.
We're kind of an odd pair in this discussion. A Reformed Christian and a Catholic, both 19, opposing the acceptance of divorce. I guess since we haven't been married and haven't had to deal with a divorce (directly) we don't see the issue through self-justifying eyes (which is probably why a celibate clergy has been consistent on this issue).

To be honest this kind of thing is what irks me about Evangelicalism, they recognize that they must uphold moral standards, but they only want to uphold certain moral standards.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#14
We're kind of an odd pair in this discussion.
I think this is an understatement.

A Reformed Christian and a Catholic, both 19, opposing the acceptance of divorce. I guess since we haven't been married and haven't had to deal with a divorce (directly) we don't see the issue through self-justifying eyes (which is probably why a celibate clergy has been consistent on this issue).
I think you're right about this as well. Not having been divorced, or knowing divorce personally, I think influences the way I approach the issue. I know from myself, that I often must watch out or I justify in my heart the things I know I am not to do. I think it's very much the same case with divorce.

I'd like to know, how many people are divorced that are defending more liberal approaches to the matter.

To be honest this kind of thing is what irks me about Evangelicalism, they recognize that they must uphold moral standards, but they only want to uphold certain moral standards.
YES! I don't like that either. "Let's fight homosexuality but ignore divorce, gluttony, materialism, etc"
 
C

chiclet01

Guest
#15
While I truly appreciate the subtle jabs at those who have put in the awful position of divorce, you did not address what I spoke of with 1 Corinthians 7, which contains one of the most quoted verses about remaining single.

The topic of "living in sin" is an interesting one as well. Are you saying that anyone who struggles with any recurring sin (lying, lusting, adultery, gluttony, greed, etc.) is not forgiven? As I've said before, it's easy to judge the sins that are very visible. But how many of us are truly free from any recurring sins?

Please also do not make assumptions about my feelings on the sanctity of marriage. I did not choose my particular situation. I fought and prayed with all my might for a very long time, but in the end, it was not up to me. I agree completely that divorce is used far too often as an "easy out". But you cannot lump all situations together into one. As I stated previously, we are called to use discernment. The chapter I quoted about that was actually referencing what was seen as a breaking of the "rules". People don't want to do that because it's harder. It's easier to throw blanket judgments around.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#16
While I truly appreciate the subtle jabs at those who have put in the awful position of divorce, you did not address what I spoke of with 1 Corinthians 7, which contains one of the most quoted verses about remaining single.

The topic of "living in sin" is an interesting one as well. Are you saying that anyone who struggles with any recurring sin (lying, lusting, adultery, gluttony, greed, etc.) is not forgiven? As I've said before, it's easy to judge the sins that are very visible. But how many of us are truly free from any recurring sins?
Well there is somewhat of a difference between recurring lust and recurring adultery (as would be the result of a non-celibate second marriage). A person who lusts frequently and repents and strives with all their being to resist that urge is certainly forgiven even if they fall now and again, the same would apply to a frequent adulterer. But in a second marriage there is not this desire for repentance and forgiveness, they believe that what they are doing is right and just in God's eyes and do not acknowledge it as sin. While the repentant luster (not quite sure if thats a word in this context) and adulterer recognize that what they have done is sinful.

Please also do not make assumptions about my feelings on the sanctity of marriage. I did not choose my particular situation. I fought and prayed with all my might for a very long time, but in the end, it was not up to me. I agree completely that divorce is used far too often as an "easy out". But you cannot lump all situations together into one. As I stated previously, we are called to use discernment. The chapter I quoted about that was actually referencing what was seen as a breaking of the "rules". People don't want to do that because it's harder. It's easier to throw blanket judgments around.
"Disparity of Cult" marriages as we call them can certainly be annulled, at least between a Protestant and a unbeliever (Catholics are made very aware of the dangers of a "Disparity of Cult" marriage before they are even allowed to get married in the Church). Or more plainly without proper consent of both parties and sufficient time to consider this decision any marriage between a Protestant and an unbeliever was never a valid marriage to begin with.

There are various things that can cause a marriage to be annulled, like getting married before a Justice of the Peace (or Elvis). But by far the most common reason for an annulment for Catholics is that they married in a Protestant church and later came back to the Church and the Protestant spouse refuses to have the marriage convalidated.

But that is but a snippet of what Canon Law has to say on annulments and dissolutions of natural (non-Sacramental) marriages.