Eternal punishment case closed

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Mar 15, 2013
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#21
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
(Rev 14:9-11)


Thayer Definition: (amazing, he was a Unitarian)

βασανισμός
basanismos
1) to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) torment, torture
2a) the act of tormenting
2b) the state or condition of those tormented
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G928
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96


STRONGS
G929
βασανισμός
basanismos
bas-an-is-mos'
From G928; torture: - torment.
The failure of the inspection you point to there is it's incompleteness. It refuses to really get down to examining the New Testament's use of that word "torment" so as to see that it does not have to be an actively ongoing physical torture such as one being consciously taunted. The Greeks viewed imprisonment or detainment as also this βασανισμός, requiring nothing more than the cessation of one's liberty to do as they please.

Thus anything which hinders free exercise is viewed in the Koine Greek as βασανισμός but our English word "torment" does not work to convey that thought well.
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#22
I should add that where the idea of a touchstone comes in is that the thought behind imprisoning or restraining a person from their lawlessness is done as much as an example for others to deter similar conduct as it is to cease that person's freedom to perform such conduct.

We see that of the associated word, "kolazo", G2849 kolazo -- from kolos (dwarf); properly, to curtail,

Acts 4:21 "So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might [kolazo - punish] them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done."

The thought is on curtailing or putting a stop to the actions which are opposed. This serves to stop the perceived negative actions and sets an example that society might be in fear and so be deterred from similar conduct.

Our legal systems even today yet rely heavily upon that touchstone principle.
 
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Mar 29, 2013
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#23
The english bible makes it pretty clear that there will be eternal punishment now you can say its just missed translation but do you really think God would let millionls of people be decived by letting his word be taught wrong all over the world.?
 
Apr 15, 2013
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#24
Can I just point out that use of the word 'hell', is not the word Jesus used. The word for hell was gehinnom or gehenna.
And for death was shoel or hades.
It pays to actually know what gehinnom is and how fire, touchstoning, and the smelting of gold and silver, or the chaff and grain, or the burning pit of Jarusalem, or the garbage dump of Jarusalem applies to the concepts Jesus and the disciples used to describe gehinnom and its purpose.

I would lean on alternative translations of the bible, otherwise it's a contradiction. God is all powerful. God wants all to be saved. But God cant or wont achieve that purpose and some will be tortured for eternity??


I'm saying it's good to have the whole picture.

The disciples wept for the falling away of the church that was to come. And I believe we are in it; having a form of Godliness and denying the power it has.
 
Jan 10, 2013
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#25
One interesting point I'd make
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
When Jude wrote this were the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha still burning?
Did they still exist at all?

No - the "eternal fire" used in the Bible means utter destruction.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#26
One interesting point I'd make

When Jude wrote this were the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha still burning?
Did they still exist at all?

No - the "eternal fire" used in the Bible means utter destruction.
Bookreader, one thing I have noticed about you, is that which ever term in the bible you don't like, you simply redefine.. That is why you have no credibility with me.
 
Jan 10, 2013
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#27
Bookreader, one thing I have noticed about you, is that which ever term in the bible you don't like, you simply redefine.. That is why you have no credibility with me.
So you think the cities are still there, burning away forever?

I'm not redefining. I showed through a verse in scripture what the people of the day meant when used the term "eternal fire".

I don't define or redefine. That would be wrong. However when the people of the church have followed false beliefs for so long it is, I understand, unsettling when anyone has a different opinion and provides scriptural evidence for their position.

I found a cool site actually - and not one 'redefinition' in sight :)

Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism
 
Jan 24, 2013
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#28
Are you really so sure that "many of those who sleep in the dusty ground" is not also saying that some are yet remaining asleep in the dusty ground?
Romans 6:3-5

[SUP]3[/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4[/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Colossians 3:1-3


3If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
[SUP]3[/SUP]For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Christ came to save all. And when He rose, ALL MEN indeed were drawn to Him.

If the rest had risen in Christ as you say, then it would be "all who remained asleep in the dusty ground" that would rise, by your theory.

But it does not say that "all of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake..."

It says quite clearly, "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake..", just as clearly meaning that some remain asleep in the dusty ground.
Matthew 22:29-32

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
[SUP]31[/SUP]But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
[SUP]32 [/SUP]I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matthew 27:50-53

[SUP]50 [/SUP]Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[SUP]52 [/SUP]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[SUP]53 [/SUP]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is One of the LIVING. Those that arose from the grave ARE THOSE OF THR RESSURECTION FROM THE DEAD. The arose and went into the "holy city AND APPEARED UNTO MANY"???

Hebrews 12:22-24

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Again, those that arose were among the firstfruits of the dead. Those of the Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob variety, or "THE FEW" who finds life, walks the narrow path, etc. were not part of this grouping. God has been saving since man has been dying!

Exodus 29:37-42

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee.

Jesus again being the door, accessed by His baptism INTO DEATH. Therefore the TRUE daily sacrifices are us!

Romans 8:36

[SUP]36 [/SUP]As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

But what has happened to these "daily sacrifices" commanded by God now?

Daniel 11:31-35

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

[SUP]35[/SUP]And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Romans 11:7-16

[SUP]7[/SUP]What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[SUP]8 [/SUP](According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Even the branches that break off are holy!


Jeremiah 25:27 "Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you."
Exactly. God has done this. As you can CLEARLY SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES there are 18 MILLION empty homes here in America. We can EASILY take 40 MILLION off of the streets RIGHT NOW. But has God blinded you to what's right in front of your face, or do you want to continue with the internet battle? There is no imaginary being keeping those houses empty, or people starving. Only ourselves and our own self righteousness!

Let's wake up people!
 
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danschance

Guest
#29
So you think the cities are still there, burning away forever?

I'm not redefining. I showed through a verse in scripture what the people of the day meant when used the term "eternal fire".

I don't define or redefine. That would be wrong. However when the people of the church have followed false beliefs for so long it is, I understand, unsettling when anyone has a different opinion and provides scriptural evidence for their position.

I found a cool site actually - and not one 'redefinition' in sight :)

Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism
You recently said that demons in the bible represent humans. I may not be quoting you word for word, but still, you did define demons as representing humanity. That is a clear case of redefining bilical terms. The bible defines hell as a literal place. You say it means destruction which is turning hell into nothing more than a metaphor just as you did with demons.

If you wish to go through the bible and redefine things you don't like according to your own yard stick, that is your prerogative. I had a man tell me that when Jesus walked on water it meant he was walking in shallow water to wash his feet. When one redefines terms it becomes a slippery slope. Maybe another person would redefine Hell as nothing more than a guilt trip and another claim it is the criminal aspects of humanity, etc, etc.

I accept the bible on it's face value. It is the word of God and not something one should "willy-nilly" trifle with as though it were a novel. Your link "rethinking Hell" says it all.
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#30
Justamazed said:
Exactly. God has done this. As you can CLEARLY SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES there are 18 MILLION empty homes here in America. We can EASILY take 40 MILLION off of the streets RIGHT NOW. But has God blinded you to what's right in front of your face, or do you want to continue with the internet battle? There is no imaginary being keeping those houses empty, or people starving. Only ourselves and our own self righteousness!

Let's wake up people!
That is true only for spiritual Israel: Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.."

If they do not wake up then they never were Israel.
 
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