Evolution and christianity

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S

SeekSolace

Guest
#41
As previously stated, most of the early theoritical basics of evolution have been complicated out of existance. Biology no longer has quaint 19th century assumptions, although they are still found in evolutionary theory. Complex organisms are operant by millions of interdependent biochemical processes. They work together, and take one away the effects are an inoperative system. All would have to evolve TOGETHER since without the others each one would not achieve a survival advantage. Remember the old "eye" analogy? You know "first it was a cell that was more sensitive to light." The eye is a highly complex structure that requires all parts working simultaneously or...nothing. And what about something less complex, like a rotifer? A mouth on one end, a agitator on the other and a body. Perfect little machine, take away anything and it no longer works. What was it before it was a rotifer? Evolution cannot, and has never been observed. Adaptation, already encoded in the genome can be observed, but it does NOT explain transpeciation. We forget that because of statements like "the gorilla and man share a common ancestor." This sounds plausible because of some somatype similarieis. But for evolution to be operative its a nonsense statement because every living thing in existance...plant, animal, microorganisms...would share a common ancestor. We've been conditioned to accept shorthand thinking..."a million monkeys typing on a million typewriters for a million years will eventually produce the complete works of Shakespeare"...bunk, with no basis in statistical science. You'll just get a bunch of gobbledygook, even if you change the million to a trillion. But it forms perceptions which make it easier to swallow the bigger lie.

Evolution is magic, occultism, or religion masquerading as science. It is not measureable, it is not reproducible, it is not testable. It is hypothesis presented as fact, and no other explanations need apply. And once again, adaptation is NOT evolution, and I don't care if you find them linked on a google search. They are linked because adaptation and selective breeding can be tested, measured, and reproduced and the rest of what is required for evolution to be operative tries to ride on those coattails. "If adaptation is observable, evolution must be true." The point has been made on this thread, but there is ZERO evidence that adaptation led to transpeciation. If you don't have transpeciation you don't have evolution.

And it's not because scientists haven't been desperately looking for evidence for the last hundred years or so. Even when the similarities between DNA and computer code is noted, scientists have a bias to claim there is no programmer.

It just boggles the mind.
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#42
What boggles my mind is how people can believe that you can prove (or disprove) that God exists through something called science.
 
Dec 4, 2009
467
0
0
#43
What boggles my mind is how people can believe that you can prove (or disprove) that God exists through something called science.
because we use "science to find out the mysteryous of the world but you could say science could prove a god exists (and obv vise versa) but you would have to use history to see which god that is
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#44
because we use "science to find out the mysteryous of the world but you could say science could prove a god exists (and obv vise versa) but you would have to use history to see which god that is
You can use science to prove that God exists? lol If you said that you can use scientific principles to observe the effect or the work of God then I can buy that but if you say that science can prove that God exists... well, that's just preposterous. Knowing God exists is a faith thing. You can observe that there is much that cannot be explained and therefore, by deduction (or is it induction? I always get them mixed up...) you can say there must be a God that exists because it's too complex to figure out - it's too unexplainable. But you cannot prove that God exists because we've barely even scratched the surface of what God is or isn't. That is science. If you do not know that something is there but you observe the effect that this "something" has on the rest of the world, then by that logic, you can say that it exists. It's like atoms, electrons, photons, and particles. You cannot prove that it exists but you can prove that the effect those things have on our world does exist and therefore, it only makes sense that electrons, atoms, photons, and particles exist. Same with the sun. You cannot prove that the sun exists because we do not have the technology to actually go to the sun and say "Hey, it's the sun! It really exists!" However, by observation, you can prove that there is this bright ball in the sky. By observation, you know that there is a continuous stream of photons. By observation, you can prove that flames emerge through the burning of something. By observation, you can determine temperatures through different wavelengths. By observation, these different wavelengths correspond to the burning of hydrogen and so forth and so forth such that the evidence of its effects are indisputable and one can only come to the conclusion that the sun exists. But still, you cannot prove that the sun "exists" anymore you can prove that God "exists." That is why those who seek to prove that God exists will fail and those who seek to disprove God will equally fail. God cannot be "proven" - it is a choice, a decision to accept that God exists.
 
Dec 4, 2009
467
0
0
#45
You can use science to prove that God exists? lol If you said that you can use scientific principles to observe the effect or the work of God then I can buy that but if you say that science can prove that God exists... well, that's just preposterous. Knowing God exists is a faith thing. You can observe that there is much that cannot be explained and therefore, by deduction (or is it induction? I always get them mixed up...) you can say there must be a God that exists because it's too complex to figure out - it's too unexplainable. But you cannot prove that God exists because we've barely even scratched the surface of what God is or isn't. That is science. If you do not know that something is there but you observe the effect that this "something" has on the rest of the world, then by that logic, you can say that it exists. It's like atoms, electrons, photons, and particles. You cannot prove that it exists but you can prove that the effect those things have on our world does exist and therefore, it only makes sense that electrons, atoms, photons, and particles exist. Same with the sun. You cannot prove that the sun exists because we do not have the technology to actually go to the sun and say "Hey, it's the sun! It really exists!" However, by observation, you can prove that there is this bright ball in the sky. By observation, you know that there is a continuous stream of photons. By observation, you can prove that flames emerge through the burning of something. By observation, you can determine temperatures through different wavelengths. By observation, these different wavelengths correspond to the burning of hydrogen and so forth and so forth such that the evidence of its effects are indisputable and one can only come to the conclusion that the sun exists. But still, you cannot prove that the sun "exists" anymore you can prove that God "exists." That is why those who seek to prove that God exists will fail and those who seek to disprove God will equally fail. God cannot be "proven" - it is a choice, a decision to accept that God exists.
i was only tryign to say that if someone did want to find out if god exist or not they would have the methods of science
 
K

karuna

Guest
#46
The eye is a highly complex structure that requires all parts working simultaneously or...nothing.
This doesn't appear to be true. There are diseases of the eye in which individual parts cease functioning or simply no longer exist, but the organ remains useful. For instance, we need only consider color blindness, of which there are several genetic varieties, to note that an eye with some parts missing or malfunctioning is still useful. There are some people with paralyzed irises; I would say they are much better off than those who are simply blind, even if they're not as well off as those who can adjust to light levels.
 
Dec 4, 2009
467
0
0
#47
This doesn't appear to be true. There are diseases of the eye in which individual parts cease functioning or simply no longer exist, but the organ remains useful. For instance, we need only consider color blindness, of which there are several genetic varieties, to note that an eye with some parts missing or malfunctioning is still useful. There are some people with paralyzed irises; I would say they are much better off than those who are simply blind, even if they're not as well off as those who can adjust to light levels.
ill be honest i dont think seeksolace knows what hes talking about half the time and hasnt researched into it
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#48
i was only tryign to say that if someone did want to find out if god exist or not they would have the methods of science
They would have the methods of science but they still won't be able to find out if God exists or not from science. It is truly a pointless exercise - much like what creationists and evolutionists attempt - disproving or proving that God exists.
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#49
They would have the methods of science but they still won't be able to find out if God exists or not from science. It is truly a pointless exercise - much like what creationists and evolutionists attempt - disproving or proving that God exists.
What are you getting at?... We prove or disprove that evolution is an explanation for the development of life... however, a consequence of this is that is evolution is false, atheism is undoubtedly false, while if evolution is true, then a creator MAY still be the cause, but an atheistic view is far more reasonable.

Saying we can't say God exists the same we can't say the sun exists... HUH?!? You don't' have to physically see or touch something to know and prove it's there. The sun's existence is proven. The existence of electrons/protons/neutrons is proven. You can't prove that they haven't been proven XD
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#50
What are you getting at?... We prove or disprove that evolution is an explanation for the development of life... however, a consequence of this is that is evolution is false, atheism is undoubtedly false, while if evolution is true, then a creator MAY still be the cause, but an atheistic view is far more reasonable.

Saying we can't say God exists the same we can't say the sun exists... HUH?!? You don't' have to physically see or touch something to know and prove it's there. The sun's existence is proven. The existence of electrons/protons/neutrons is proven. You can't prove that they haven't been proven XD
No, that is still deductive proof. You have enough evidence, enough observations, and enough support to say that the conclusion is true (e.g., that atoms exist). But you cannot prove that atoms exist. You cannot take a powerful microscope and look at something and go, "Hey, look! There's an atom within a cubic lattice! I see it!"

It's like hot and cold. What is hot? Emission of energy from an object or black-body. What is cold? Cold is the absorption of energy (or, as we know it, heat). So ice is cold because it is absorbing energy from its surroundings. But if you go even deeper, ice is cold because the water molecule is absorbing energy from its surroundings. But you can still go deeper and say that ice is cold because the individual bondings between different levels of electrons plus the charge on the overall atoms of hydrogen and oxygen are absorbing/affecting energy. You can still go further and say that the atomic spin affects the absorption of energy and even further and further but at the end of the day, these are all observations. Observations of something going on but it is not proof that the electron is there and exists. It is deductive proof - which is really all the observations you have made can only lead to one conclusion - that it exists. That's the scientific process. As soon as we are able to observe a different behaviour, then science will explain that there was something there that we previously did not know of or the model of what we have previously concluded requires modification so that this new phenomenon can be explained. That's the scientific process - observation and reasoning.

Let's use a spiritual example - one who receives a "prophecy." So, is the prophecy from God or from Satan? Can you prove either? No. But you can discern. How? By observing what the prophecy is about then comparing it to Scripture. At the end of the day you can say, "Hey, that matches what God would want us to do! It must be from God!" or you can say, "Something's not right... this doesn't match up with Scripture. It must be from Satan!" But can you prove that it's from God or from Satan? No. You can't see the spiritual. But you can observe the effects and deduce who is giving this "prophecy."

So you can observe the wonders of the world and come to the conclusion that there must be a God! But that is not proving that God exists - that is deducing that God exists based on observation. Whether God exists or not is a personal choice based purely on faith. You cannot see, hear, touch, or smell God. But you can observe His great works, His love radiating from a Christian, or His wrath. From these observations, you can conclude that there must be a God.
 
S

SeekSolace

Guest
#51
Hi again Zavok, polite as usual I see. I should have said biochemical processes, but what parts of the eye can be missing and still function. Missing, not diseased or damaged.

Here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision. When light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal. The change in the shape of retinal forces a change in the shape of the protein, rhodopsin, to which the retinal is tightly bound. The protein's metamorphosis alters its behavior, making it stick to another protein called transducin. Before bumping into activated rhodopsin, transducin had tightly bound a small molecule called GDP. But when transducin interacts with activated rhodopsin, the GDP falls off and a molecule called GTP binds to transducin. (GTP is closely related to, but critically different from, GDP.)

GTP-transducin-activated rhodopsin now binds to a protein called phosphodiesterase, located in the inner membrane of the cell. When attached to activated rhodopsin and its entourage, the phosphodiesterase acquires the ability to chemically cut a molecule called cGMP (a chemical relative of both GDP and GTP). Initially there are a lot of cGMP molecules in the cell, but the phosphodiesterase lowers its concentration, like a pulled plug lowers the water level in a bathtub.

Another membrane protein that binds cGMP is called an ion channel. It acts as a gateway that regulates the number of sodium ions in the cell. Normally the ion channel allows sodium ions to flow into the cell, while a separate protein actively pumps them out again. The dual action of the ion channel and pump keeps the level of sodium ions in the cell within a narrow range. When the amount of cGMP is reduced because of cleavage by the phosphodiesterase, the ion channel closes, causing the cellular concentration of positively charged sodium ions to be reduced. This causes an imbalance of charge across the cell membrane which, finally, causes a current to be transmitted down the optic nerve to the brain. The result, when interpreted by the brain, is vision.

And all of this evolved simultaneously. Even Darwin knew complexity of the eye was a problem, and he considered the eye to be as complicated as a black box camera.

Try to keep up Zavok.
 
S

SeekSolace

Guest
#52
As far as science proving or disproving the existence of God, Quantum Physics is coming close to inferring it.
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#53
As far as science proving or disproving the existence of God, Quantum Physics is coming close to inferring it.
I am sure atheists can make the opposite claim that quantum physics is coming close to inferring that God does not exist. It is better to rely on faith that comes from God rather than trust in our physical senses or thoughts.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#54
Here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision.
This is mostly irrelevant to the claim of irreducible complexity. Such a detailed description of a biological phenomenon has little to do with showing that it couldn't have been done in fewer steps, with different intermediary chemicals, with minor variations in intermediary chemicals, etc., which is what the claim of irreducible complexity concerns. I think you're trying to drown the actual question in the sheer volume of your description.

And all of this evolved simultaneously.
You can't simply assert this. Also, it's wrong. For instance, analogues of rhodopsin, which you discuss in your explanation of vision, is found in some phototrophic prokaryotes which, I can assume I can state without much argument, do not have fully formed eyes. That is to say, by looking around at more primitive life, we can see that some biological innovations on which we still rely occurred long before us.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#55
As far as science proving or disproving the existence of God, Quantum Physics is coming close to inferring it.
There is no set of mathematical symbols which would point towards a deity. Individual quantum physicists may mix their physics with mysticism, but at this point it's wise to call a spade a spade. Do we believe roofing points towards the existence of God because, while laying down tile, the roofer gives his thoughts on God?
 
S

SeekSolace

Guest
#56
You've misstated the premise...it IS the complexity, all parts working towards the whole effect that is the point. Individual parts can change but that doesn't explain how the supported system got there in the first place. All the parts INTERACT, in the proper order. The fact that there are less complex designs doesn't even infer evolutionary processes. You can put different parts on a car but it still has to be a car if you expect to drive it away.

As for quantum physics, mathematical formula isn't the issue because mechanistic explanations fit macro-physics but not (at least at present) quantum. Claiming mysticism is being mixed with physics is inserting a bias that says because the results resemble mysticism it must be false.

Both General Grand Unification and Consciousness Causes Collapse models fit very well with the Christian worldview. Non-Christians probably prefer the "Many Worlds" interpretation of GGU since is supports evolution, but should acknowledge it also allows for intelligent design and control. So that leaves us to our biases to determine what we will have faith in.