GIFTS TO THE UNSAVED?

[webchatter]

PLEASE TELL ME YOUR INTERPRETATION OF 1CORINTHIANS13:1-6 IN REGARD TO THIS QUESTION: HAVE THESE GIFTS BEEN BESTOWED BY GOD UPON THE UNSAVED TOO, OR DID THEY LOSE THEIR SALVATION BY WORSHIPPING THEIR GIFT RATHER THAN THE GIVER OF THE GIFT? ONCE THE GIFT IS GIVEN, IS IT TAKEN AWAY BECAUSE OF LACK OF CHARITY/LOVE?
OR WERE THESE GIFTS GIVEN BY GOD, GIVEN TO THEM AS A CHILD, WHEN THEY HAD MUCH FAITH, BUT HAD NO PRIDE & WERN'T PUFFED UP?
FOR EXAMPLE, I KNEW SOME PEOPLE WHO WENT TO JIM JONES' ORIGINAL CHURCH. THEY CLAIM THAT HE HAD GIFTS FROM GOD INCLUDING HEALING. AFTER A WHILE THESE PEOPLE LEFT HIS HUMBLE 1ST CHURCH, BECAUSE THEY SAID HE STARTED DOING FAKE HEALINGS.
THE NON CHRISTIAN PEOPLE I SEE ON TV WHO USUSALLY MAKE SUCH GENERAL CLAIMS TO AN ENTIRE AUDIENCE, THAT SOMEONE IS BOUND TO FIT INTO THIER "KNOWLEGDE/GIFT", I JUST CONSIDER THEM SNAKE OIL SALESMEN WITH NO GIFT AT ALL, EXCEPT THEFT & PREYING ON THE GRIEF STRICKEN.
BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO MAY APPEAR TO HAVE A GIFT FROM GOD, YET DO NOT PROFESS CHRISTIANITY, OR ARE OFTEN WRONG IN PROPHECY, & SOMETIMES CORRECT.
(NOT SPOKEN PRESUMPTUOUSLY). SO WERE THOSE PEOPLE GIFTED, THEN BECAME PROUD OF THE GIFT, YET THE GIFT WAS NOT TAKEN BACK, WHILE THEY CONTINUED TO SPEAK THINGS WHEN THEY KNOW GOD DIDN'T TELL THEM TO? (FOR MORE ATTENTION).
1- "though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal"2- "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
4-Charity suffereth long, and is kind, charity envieth not, charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5= doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil. 6- rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth."

 

[kenisyes]

Acts 2:17 quotes Joel. Both this and the original use the word "flesh". The gifts are poured out not only on the servants of God, but the unsaved, too, where they function in their flesh, but without the Holy Spirit to guide their minds in correct use. This is the source of many counterfeits, such as some results of witchcraft, fortune telling, etc. Many of these show power, but lack God.

Don't confuse it though. Most of the TV preachers are saved. Some use God given gifts in ways that are perverted by desire for fame, money, etc. This is a different type of counterfeit. These pretend to show God, but many people who follow God can tell the difference and stay away.

 

[GRA]

PLEASE TELL ME YOUR INTERPRETATION OF 1CORINTHIANS13:1-6 IN REGARD TO THIS QUESTION: HAVE THESE GIFTS BEEN BESTOWED BY GOD UPON THE UNSAVED TOO, OR DID THEY LOSE THEIR SALVATION BY WORSHIPPING THEIR GIFT RATHER THAN THE GIVER OF THE GIFT? ONCE THE GIFT IS GIVEN, IS IT TAKEN AWAY BECAUSE OF LACK OF CHARITY/LOVE?
OR WERE THESE GIFTS GIVEN BY GOD, GIVEN TO THEM AS A CHILD, WHEN THEY HAD MUCH FAITH, BUT HAD NO PRIDE & WERN'T PUFFED UP?
FOR EXAMPLE, I KNEW SOME PEOPLE WHO WENT TO JIM JONES' ORIGINAL CHURCH. THEY CLAIM THAT HE HAD GIFTS FROM GOD INCLUDING HEALING. AFTER A WHILE THESE PEOPLE LEFT HIS HUMBLE 1ST CHURCH, BECAUSE THEY SAID HE STARTED DOING FAKE HEALINGS.
THE NON CHRISTIAN PEOPLE I SEE ON TV WHO USUSALLY MAKE SUCH GENERAL CLAIMS TO AN ENTIRE AUDIENCE, THAT SOMEONE IS BOUND TO FIT INTO THIER "KNOWLEGDE/GIFT", I JUST CONSIDER THEM SNAKE OIL SALESMEN WITH NO GIFT AT ALL, EXCEPT THEFT & PREYING ON THE GRIEF STRICKEN.
BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO MAY APPEAR TO HAVE A GIFT FROM GOD, YET DO NOT PROFESS CHRISTIANITY, OR ARE OFTEN WRONG IN PROPHECY, & SOMETIMES CORRECT.
(NOT SPOKEN PRESUMPTUOUSLY). SO WERE THOSE PEOPLE GIFTED, THEN BECAME PROUD OF THE GIFT, YET THE GIFT WAS NOT TAKEN BACK, WHILE THEY CONTINUED TO SPEAK THINGS WHEN THEY KNOW GOD DIDN'T TELL THEM TO? (FOR MORE ATTENTION).
1- "though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal"2- "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
4-Charity suffereth long, and is kind, charity envieth not, charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5= doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil. 6- rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth."

"WHY DO YOU 'SPEAK' IN ALL-CAPS while displaying scripture in lower-case -- and in a fashion that is clearly 'without care' of making sure that the Word of God is not displayed in a 'sloppy' and inconsistent manner...???"

Most people do not like to have to read posts (especially long ones) that contain ALL or even MOSTLY all-caps text.

When I see "a wall of ALL-CAPS" - I usually just ignore it... (and move on to the next post)

I truly understand that (sometimes) there may be a "legitimate reason" that drives people to do this (i.e., failing dexterity in the fingers that somehow make it more difficult to use the 'shift' key) -- but, more often than not - (I believe) there is a component of "just plain laziness"...

Do not ever under-estimate the impact and impression that you make with that part of your post that you "say without saying" - it is the "non-verbal body language" equivalent in writing. The manner and style in which you write words and sentences sometimes say volumes more than what is actually expressed in the wording itself.

webchatter:

I am not trying to "attack" you. I have nothing against you.

all:

I do, however, have something against [the carelessness of] people not caring enough to at least try to "display" and "represent" what they want to express in a way that "respects" both the language and the person reading it. And - YES - this is vitally important when it comes to ensuring good communication.

And especially - the Word of God should always be presented in a way that is clearly and easily readable - never in a way that is "sloppy" --- to display it in a manner that is neat and "precision-correct" (i.e., NO errors in capitalization, punctuation, spelling, etc. - a "verbatim copy" of [whatever bible version] it is intending to "represent" - is what we should [at least] strive for) is the highest form of "respect" (from a base-level "written language" point of view) that we can give it.

What we write into these posts will be "preserved" for (presumedly) a very long time. And, it will - continually and indefinitely - reflect on the writer...

What is the reflection that you wish people to have of you?

Are you willing to put forth the necessary time and effort that it takes?



.

 

[webchatter]

MR. Gra, my copying of Scripture is verbatim. I missed the caps on 3 words.I am sorry. There is no Scripture misspelled.
Are you saying that you prefer not to read Scripture as a paragraph as it was intended? I'm sorry if you find it offensive. I'll try to please you more in the future & post Scripture one verse per line, at a time, as you prefer.
I apologize for not being able to take it off bold, once I got started. I went back after typing the questions, & before I posted it, & tried to make the chapter & verse on the first line smaller, & you can see what happened.
Notice how I was able to change the font of the Scripture, before I typed it. Doesn't that show I tried?
I don't think it was very nice of you to ask me if I am willing to put in more time and effort to make my sloppy Scripture more presentable. I probably put a lot more time into mine than you did yours. You are wrong to ASSUME I am lazy & accuse me of such.
If I were able to quote only part of your post, I would do it here & respond to each attack you made.
Your accusation of my having " just plain laziness" doesn't show any Christianity to me. No, dexterity is not my medical problem Sir.
I don't understand the font symbols, I have seen no instruction in tech support. I can't get it back to normal font after I use bold, so if I use bold, it is usually the last sentence. So now please feel free just to reply back that I am stupid, not lazy, & that all My Scripture was VERBATIM!!!

 

[carolineh]

it would be much more brotherly, kind and loving and compassionate if people who criticize your presentation would privately approach you and give advice and help to make a better presentation...to me the content is way more important than the presentation but to others the presentation is equally important and I guess we are to cater to both..as far as spiritual gifting is concerned, the greatest spiritual gift we are to seek after is love and it is the kind of love that God has for us that we are to seek..the gift of healings were signs that Jesus and the apostles were truly from God and truly bearing His message to us...we have the complete message now and have had since the first century and cursed is anyone who adds to or takes away from that message

 

[webchatter]

Thankyou Kenisyes, for your helpful info. Thankyou Carolineh for your kind words, and information. I feel compelled here to share something that most of my friends don't even know. I do have a strange medical condition, well, strange to me anyway. Diagnosed at age 56, 2 years ago, but bottom line is that it's all working out,thanks to God, except for 1 thing. What I see, does not always register. For example, I'm not supposed to drive. I think I see fine, but anything visual will not ALWAYS register. In 2 years this has only caused a problem while driving, & losing things around the house. I'm actually an intelligent woman, but typing is visual so I can't promise my proofreading will always be correct, or my Scripture verbatim or caps in proper places. I'm sorry about that in more ways than one. I havn't figured out the font switching symbols, yet I think I tried them all.
Anyway, there's lots of reasons I needed info about this thread. I've never been involved in a charasmatic movement.I have heard people say all my life that the gifts are dead, but I know that's not true. I have also heard people say that some people's gifts were "of the devil". My one grandmother used to speak in tongues in her sleep & she sounded exactly like a tv preacher speaking in tongues. It sounded like the same exact language.This grandmother was an atheist, & former quaker. I would tell her about it when she awoke, but she wouldn't believe me. Thank goodness I was just visiting often & not living there, to hear it every nite.(It creeped out a kid).
Carolineh, it's people like you who keep nice Chrisitans on this website.Thank you. God bless

 

[GRA]

MR. Gra, my copying of Scripture is verbatim. I missed the caps on 3 words.I am sorry. There is no Scripture misspelled.
Are you saying that you prefer not to read Scripture as a paragraph as it was intended? I'm sorry if you find it offensive. I'll try to please you more in the future & post Scripture one verse per line, at a time, as you prefer.
I apologize for not being able to take it off bold, once I got started. I went back after typing the questions, & before I posted it, & tried to make the chapter & verse on the first line smaller, & you can see what happened.
Notice how I was able to change the font of the Scripture, before I typed it. Doesn't that show I tried?
I don't think it was very nice of you to ask me if I am willing to put in more time and effort to make my sloppy Scripture more presentable. I probably put a lot more time into mine than you did yours. You are wrong to ASSUME I am lazy & accuse me of such.
If I were able to quote only part of your post, I would do it here & respond to each attack you made.
Your accusation of my having " just plain laziness" doesn't show any Christianity to me. No, dexterity is not my medical problem Sir.
I don't understand the font symbols, I have seen no instruction in tech support. I can't get it back to normal font after I use bold, so if I use bold, it is usually the last sentence. So now please feel free just to reply back that I am stupid, not lazy, & that all My Scripture was VERBATIM!!!

webchatter:

So that you may better understand what follows - please go read this thread:

http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/47618-quote-quote-quote.html

Then - go back and re-read my last post and tell me honestly whether or not it "came across" differently the second time --- and, if - the second time - you understand that, all that I said in that post was not directed at you.



.

 

[kenisyes]

webchatter:

So that you may better understand what follows - please go read this thread:

http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/47618-quote-quote-quote.html

Then - go back and re-read my last post and tell me honestly whether or not it "came across" differently the second time --- and, if - the second time - you understand that, all that I said in that post was not directed at you.



.

I am so happy you posted that thread; I never had seen it until now. I can't tell you how many times I have wondered if someone was quoting to rebut me, add to what I said, or just to let people know what they were referring to. We tend to forget that threads do not carry body language and tone of voice, and so we write just as we talk. I do it all the time.

Webchatter, do you realize what GRA is trying to say is that you should not write all capitals? IF YOU WRITE LIKE THIS IN THREADS, it looks to many people like you are angry. It's considered a no-no, and I believe it is mentioned in the instructions for how to use the website.

 

[webchatter]

The Scripture was not in all caps. Reread my 2nd post. Gra's comments were vicious & accusatory.. (sloppy, lazy, lack of concern for Scripture, etc.) Ok ,why isn't everyone here attacked for writing in caps? I'm not addressing Gra anymore referring to my lack of character. His post also refers to his character. So be it. Thanks Kenisyes for trying to mediate, I understand that caps could make someone think the question was asked in anger. I'm sorry. I was not angry. It won't happen again.

 

[loveme1]

Love overcomes all things, worry not.

 

[loveme1]

Exodus 4

10And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. 11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? 12Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. 13And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.

14And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart. 15And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. 16And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. 17And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs.

Peace and Blessings in the name of Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

 

[GRA]

The Scripture was not in all caps. Reread my 2nd post. Gra's comments were vicious & accusatory.. (sloppy, lazy, lack of concern for Scripture, etc.) Ok ,why isn't everyone here attacked for writing in caps? I'm not addressing Gra anymore referring to my lack of character. His post also refers to his character. So be it. Thanks Kenisyes for trying to mediate, I understand that caps could make someone think the question was asked in anger. I'm sorry. I was not angry. It won't happen again.

webchatter:

I asked you to read that thread that I posted so that hopefully you would better understand what I am going to write in this post.

There were only two lines "in the whole thing" that I was directing at you in particular:

"WHY DO YOU 'SPEAK' IN ALL-CAPS while displaying scripture in lower-case -- and in a fashion that is clearly 'without care' of making sure that the Word of God is not displayed in a 'sloppy' and inconsistent manner...???"

I am not trying to "attack" you. I have nothing against you.

In the first one - I was trying to "raise an issue" / "make a point" - writing it as if I had said it verbally (i.e., quoted and in italics). In truth, this was only "semi-directed" at you. In a way, it was like "using your post as an example" to "raise the issue" -- because it "set me off" on the issue when I saw it.

For this particular thing - that you happened to be "in the wrong place at the wrong time" - I apologize.

The only "vicious & accusatory" remarks (although I do not believe they were 'vicious') that I made to you are in this statement.

Yes - "in effect" - it was like "calling you out on the carpet"... However, the post in general is (sort of) doing that towards everyone who "does not care enough" about how they write so as to "do a sloppy job of it"...

However, I still stand firmly behind the things I said - which were intended for "the whole crowd"...

In the second one - well, it should be pretty obvious. (I thought it was.)

Did this not "register" at all? Did it not "clue you in" to the intended scope of the words that were written?

Perhaps I should have written three more paragraphs, explaining how that - having

webchatter:

before it and

all:

after it - you should understand that the one line was intended for you specifically and everything before and after were "general" comments "to the crowd at large"...

"I am sorry you misunderstood..." (truly I am - it is never my intent to 'incite' anyone with comments such as these - only to "get people to think about" something that I believe is important for people to consider)

I do not believe that you are 'stupid'. I am not really even calling you 'lazy'. Again, most of the post was intended to be towards "the crowd" in the way of:

"If the shoe fits..."

all:

(Let me just say that again...)

ALL:

DO YOU SEE why it is so very important that we should all CARE about HOW we write our posts?

When I see people "just throw anything in there" - so that it is "sloppy" and "unorganized" in appearance - without spending the time and care to make it (reasonably) neat, consistent, easy-to-read, etc. --- it tells me that they:

~ "do not care"
~ "are ignorant"
~ "are rebellious"
~ "are undisciplined"
~ "some of the above"
~ "all of the above"

It is the very tip-top tall height of PRIDE to have an attitude that says:

"I am not going to make any effort to try to properly represent the meaning of the nuances of what I want to get across to you in my post (knowing that there is no 'body language' present to help define it) -- YOU (the reader) must 'figure it all out yourself'..."



"Well - by the way - just a little hint - it makes you appear IGNORANT."

Is that what you want?

While you are yet (in your post) trying to persuade [the reader] to "agree with you" in your point of view...

"Why do you do it in such a way that 'aggravates' the reader (subconsciously)???"

Do you not understand that this "gets-under-the-skin" effect is very real? And, that it works against you - when you "do not care enough" to make it easy-on-the-reader?

Do you not understand that it makes you look:

~ ignorant
~ rebellious
~ uneducated
~ undisciplined

"Hey... Whatever... 'To each his own'..."

Anyone who reads enough of my posts should probably at some point realize that "there is a pattern" - and a 'consistent' one at that...

"Oh my goodness!"

"You mean to tell me that this man actually spends the time and effort to try to make it so that others can understand his 'style' of writing - so that they can better understand what he "is saying" when he posts? You mean to tell me that he is actually trying to minimize misunderstandings by being 'consistent' in his writing - and trying to express his thoughts in a way such that even the 'nuances' are properly 'interpreted'?"

"Oh my goodness! How about that..."

The only thing I get from SLOPPY is that the person is SLOPPY -- and it serves as a reflection on:

~ their attitude
~ their character
~ their disposition



.

 

[GRA]

I am so happy you posted that thread; I never had seen it until now. I can't tell you how many times I have wondered if someone was quoting to rebut me, add to what I said, or just to let people know what they were referring to. We tend to forget that threads do not carry body language and tone of voice, and so we write just as we talk. I do it all the time.

Thank you, Ken. It is nice to know when something you have written makes sense to someone.

I feel that we should all be more aware - not only of how we "come across" to others - but, also - what we are able to do, with reasonable effort, to minimize the unnecessary "negative" parts of it.



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