God Created Sin

[oOfallen_angelOo]

If God created everything, then God created the reality of sin.

This does not mean God sinned, as God cannot sin; but God did create the reality of sin, in which one can sin, and thus be punished by that sin.

God also created evil and God also created the devil; sin, evil, and devil - three very necessary things for our development.

I wonder why some people refuse to think that God created evil? It doesn't put God at fault or anything.

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

I wonder more why you created this thread.

 

[Ugly]

God created Lucifer. As a holy being. Not as an evil being. Lucifer made a free will choice to turn against God. There is a difference between creating someone evil, and a creation turning evil.

 

[AzureAfire]

Oh my...this thread could create confusion and doubt. But alas, there are no accidents.

Nope, God is not the creator of evil. He is pure light, love, holiness and righteousness. To be in league with darkness in even the smallest ways would be contradicting His very nature. I will refer you to this link, which is about the origin of Lucifer:

The Origin of Satan Lucifer Devil bible genesis why did God made make Satan devil Lucifer

This philosophy that GOD is working hand in hand with the Devil for our supposed spiritual growth is a big lie. Do you honestly believe that GOD needs help from another being less than Himself? There is no such thing as a necessary evil, not in His book. Although He allows us to go through trials, usually borne out of our own sins, He did not orchestrate it. He is simply making the best use out of everything we go through, so no time is wasted, and we still end up as HE desires us to be as HIS children: be like HIM. HIS mirror image in holiness, purity, righteousness and love.

[h=3]Ephesians 4:9-16[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP](Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


God bless you, and may God's all-powerful and liberating Truth in HIS Word dispel all confusion, lies and doubt within you!!

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

God created Lucifer. As a holy being. Not as an evil being. Lucifer made a free will choice to turn against God. There is a difference between creating someone evil, and a creation turning evil.

You do know that God knew Lucifer would turn evil correct? Meaning it was apart of Lucifer's nature from the get go. There are some people who go wicked, whilst others do not.

The Devil was very necessary; and if evil exist, and God created everything, then God created the reality of evil did he not? And if God did not, then where did evil come from? Evil could not be everlasting, because only God is everlasting so...

Please,

where did evil come from then?

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

I wonder more why you created this thread.

I was just thinking about it is all.

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

Oh my...this thread could create confusion and doubt. But alas, there are no accidents.

Nope, God is not the creator of evil. He is pure light, love, holiness and righteousness. To be in league with darkness in even the smallest ways would be contradicting His very nature. I will refer you to this link, which is about the origin of Lucifer:

The Origin of Satan Lucifer Devil bible genesis why did God made make Satan devil Lucifer

This philosophy that GOD is working hand in hand with the Devil for our supposed spiritual growth is a big lie. Do you honestly believe that GOD needs help from another being less than Himself? There is no such thing as a necessary evil, not in His book. Although He allows us to go through trials, usually borne out of our own sins, He did not orchestrate it. He is simply making the best use out of everything we go through, so no time is wasted, and we still end up as HE desires us to be as HIS children: be like HIM. HIS mirror image in holiness, purity, righteousness and love.

Ephesians 4:9-16

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP](Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


God bless you, and may God's all-powerful and liberating Truth in HIS Word dispel all confusion, lies and doubt within you!!

So is evil everlasting like God then? Because it had to come from somewhere correct?

If God created everything, absolutely everything, then surely God created the reality of evil; this doesn't mean that God is evil or that God commited an evil act, because evil is very necessary for our own understanding.

God created the Tree of Knowledge and knew Adam and Eve were to eat of it; what do we say? God is neglectful and wrong for them eating of the tree?

God knew Lucifer would turn against him; God intended it this way in the creation of Lucifer. Had God not known of Lucifer's wicked intent, then God would not be all - knowing. God knew when he brought forth Lucifer as a creation, the nature that was instilled in Lucifer.

Romans 9:22

" What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction?"

Well there you go, God chose to show his power; but to do so there had to be an opposing force; evil.

Why did God do this?

23

" What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory."

Like I said, evil was very necessary to have been created.

God didn't do it to set us up to die or anything - he did it for our own benefit, so we could understand God's power and God's love throughly.

And if that is not true, then please tell me...where did Evil come from then?

 

[MidniteWelder]

If God created everything, then God created the reality of sin.

This does not mean God sinned, as God cannot sin; but God did create the reality of sin, in which one can sin, and thus be punished by that sin.

God also created evil and God also created the devil; sin, evil, and devil - three very necessary things for our development.

I wonder why some people refuse to think that God created evil? It doesn't put God at fault or anything.

In order for God to have created sin he would have also had to entice satan.
But we are told that no one should say that God is tempting me.
Instead we are told that we are dragged away BY OUR OWN evil desires. (James 1)

Satan was created perfect
Ezekial 28:15 tells us that Lucifer was created perfect UNTIL SIN WAS FOUND in him, not planted in in him
"You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you."

So by what we are told it looks as though there was a progression that transpired to the devil being enticed by himself to sin against God.
All beings have the "ability" to sin but make a choice
Lucifer had no one to blame but himself...Same as us, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
God actually tries to teach us how not to sin against him, if ya think about it.
So if God created sin, wouldn't that be dividing a kingdom against itself?

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

In order for God to have created sin he would have also had to entice satan.
But we are told that no one should say that God is tempting me.
Instead we are told that we are dragged away BY OUR OWN evil desires. (James 1)

Satan was created perfect
Ezekial 28:15 tells us that Lucifer was created perfect UNTIL SIN WAS FOUND in him, not planted in in him
"You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you."

So by what we are told it looks as though there was a progression that transpired to the devil being enticed by himself to sin against God.
All beings have the "ability" to sin but make a choice
Lucifer had no one to blame but himself...Same as us, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
God actually tries to teach us how not to sin against him, if ya think about it.
So if God created sin, wouldn't that be dividing a kingdom against itself?

Wait, entice Satan? You just said Satan enticed himself to sin though.

Look a little deeper; why is it that Satan even had the reason or means to entice himself into sin? Why was evil found in him to begin with?

That verse even says " was a model," as in he resembled perfection but then something went wrong.

How and why?

Evil had to come from somewhere; God created all things so logically I mean. Evil can't be an everlasting thing because only God is everlasting; but in order to understand God's goodness, we'd have to encounter evil.

Romans 9:22 explains how God created objects of his wrath for the objects of his mercy;

The evil spirits, the corrupted angels...in their natures it was already pre - destined for them to be evil, or else they never would have been evil.

This doesn't make God evil though; because it was actually a good thing that God created the reality of evil, so that we could understand good - or else we would have been ignorant creations, unknowing of God's love.

And then, if the devil was " enticed," who did the enticing? It couldn't have been God, meaning the wicked nature of the devil was already established before hand.

I believe the devil did make a choice to sin; we all did when we sinned, but even we were given the nature to sin in our creation; or else we would have never ever sinned.

God then teaches us not to sin against him, because we are already living the miserable reality of what it's like to have sinned against God; which ultimately leads to death.

This is the only alternate reality and God wanted us to experience it first hand so we could gain a deeper understanding of God's love and goodness.

And no, the kingdom wouldn't be divided against itself because nowhere does God say creating sin is a sin lol

God knows way more than we ever will, but we understand that sin had to originate from somewhere; and if God created all things, then the reality of sin had to be one of those things.

The devil, you and I, we all have the ability in us to sin; why is that? Where did that come from? It just appeared out of nowhere inside of us?

If it was not created in our natures from the get go, the devil would have never tempted Adam and Eve; we would have never ever committed sins, and the earth would have never been necessary in which Christ had to die for our sins.

This forum isn't meant to be negative towards God, I was just thinking about it and how amazing it was from the beginning that God wanted us to really understand love.

Had God not made it that there be evil, then we would have had no free will by default because there would be no other reality of living; we would just be blindly worshipping God without really understanding why.

 

[MidniteWelder]

Let me ask you this,
Do you ever argue with God?
If so, why?

 

[starfield]

God did not create moral evil (sin) but rather created man with the ability to choose good and evil, and man bears full responsibility for his actions. However, God can pronounce judgments and devise calamities (i.e. the flood) as punishment for the wicked; that's what Isaiah 45:7 is referring to when it says "...and create evil": "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

Let me ask you this,
Do you ever argue with God?
If so, why?

Do I argue with God? I don't think its possible;

I do ask questions though to God to understand better. Why?

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

God did not create moral evil (sin) but rather created man with the ability to choose good and evil, and man bears full responsibility for his actions. However, God can pronounce judgments and devise calamities (i.e. the flood) as punishment for the wicked; that's what Isaiah 45:7 is referring to when it says "...and create evil": "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

Thus, God created the reality of sin and evil, by making man able to even have the option to choose evil.

If evil didn't exist, then man would of had no choice, because the reality of evil wouldn't have been created.

We did not create evil by sinning; we knew nothing of evil before we sinned - however, the reality of sin existed before the choice was made, or else there would have been no choosing.

See what I'm getting at?

If evil came from the Devil...well God created the Devil. God would have created the Devil's wicked nature or else the Devil would have never been evil because the reality of evil would have never existed.

Again, I re -iterate - this was not a bad act by God or a sin by God; it was actually a very necessary creation for our own understanding.

If God didn't create evil or the reality of sin, then where did those come from? And if not from God who created all things, then where?

 

[MidniteWelder]

I must stand corrected in my original stance, thank you for pointing out that verse in Isaiah Starfield.

This is a large concept to for us to wrap our mind around.
I've contemplated this before as you have fallen_angel and then dismissed it since the Lords ways are higher than our own.
All I could come to the conclusion of was God could have previously had a decent relationship with Lucifer at one point in heaven regarding his opinion.
I base this upon the fact of God asking satan his opinion of Job, (why would God even need to ask his opinion if that form of dialogue hadn't been present before?)
I wonder if in some aspects part of satans purpose was to assist in providing God with a system of checks and balances.
And at some point an argument ensued between the two and satan wouldn't relent, therefore thinking his own opinion higher than Gods in his own mind. Which would be pride.
Also arguing with God being rebellion.
And if this were the case then of course a form of jealousy
Then after being kicked out of heaven, spite etc etc snowballing.
In short, the power God afforded to Lucifer went to his head.
Anyway much of this is speculation, which we must be careful of so as not to be misled or mislead our own selves.
We are told not to rely on our own understanding.
This could also create the opportunity for sin.
It's also possible satan was relying on his own understanding not seeing Gods long term plan and thus also sinned because of it. Sometimes we do this when we don't trust God and seek out our own will and plans.
I do understand that there are agents of his wrath, yet these can be heavenly angels who carry this out as well.
(Angel of the Lord meeting with Balaam being one example)
But since I for one have just been enlightened that God does in fact create evil, i have some more to ponder upon, since this must be according to achieve his will and purpose in a way that doesnt divide his own kingdom.
But so that his glory can be shown.
Perhaps you were trying to point out that it is our unrightousness which reveals Gods righteousness Fallen_angel, and I would totally agree.
Romans 3
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say?

Then it must be true that as darkness is the absence of light, evil must be the absence of God, so that we may know the difference and appreciate God's presence with his love and mercy all the more.

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

I must stand corrected in my original stance, thank you for pointing out that verse in Isaiah Starfield.

This is a large concept to for us to wrap our mind around.
I've contemplated this before as you have fallen_angel and then dismissed it since the Lords ways are higher than our own.
All I could come to the conclusion of was God could have previously had a decent relationship with Lucifer at one point in heaven regarding his opinion.
I base this upon the fact of God asking satan his opinion of Job, (why would God even need to ask his opinion if that form of dialogue hadn't been present before?)
I wonder if in some aspects part of satans purpose was to assist in providing God with a system of checks and balances.
And at some point an argument ensued between the two and satan wouldn't relent, therefore thinking his own opinion higher than Gods in his own mind. Which would be pride.
Also arguing with God being rebellion.
And if this were the case then of course a form of jealousy
Then after being kicked out of heaven, spite etc etc snowballing.
In short, the power God afforded to Lucifer went to his head.
Anyway much of this is speculation, which we must be careful of so as not to be misled or mislead our own selves.
We are told not to rely on our own understanding.
This could also create the opportunity for sin.
It's also possible satan was relying on his own understanding not seeing Gods long term plan and thus also sinned because of it. Sometimes we do this when we don't trust God and seek out our own will and plans.
I do understand that there are agents of his wrath, yet these can be heavenly angels who carry this out as well.
(Angel of the Lord meeting with Balaam being one example)
But since I for one have just been enlightened that God does in fact create evil, i have some more to ponder upon, since this must be according to achieve his will and purpose in a way that doesnt divide his own kingdom.
But so that his glory can be shown.
Perhaps you were trying to point out that it is our unrightousness which reveals Gods righteousness Fallen_angel, and I would totally agree.
Romans 3
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say?

Then it must be true that as darkness is the absence of light, evil must be the absence of God, so that we may know the difference and appreciate God's presence with his love and mercy all the more.

Yep something along those lines.

I don't see why people have a hard time accepting that? It doesn't put God in a bad light for doing what was necessary for his creations to flourish ya know?

It's actually really wonderful.

What's more is that God knew that he would suffer greatly for it - that is dying on the cross and the miserable burden that was felt when the children fell into sin. God knew what pain would come in our creation...and we were created anyway.

What love.

It's like a mother who is told she'll die if she gives birth to a child - and she goes forth for it's sake.

 

[MidniteWelder]

What's more is that God knew that he would suffer greatly for it
What love.

Yeah, almost as if he was suggesting, "this has to be done so that they understand."

 

[Iluv_Jesus]

If God created everything, then God created the reality of sin.

This does not mean God sinned, as God cannot sin; but God did create the reality of sin, in which one can sin, and thus be punished by that sin.

God also created evil and God also created the devil; sin, evil, and devil - three very necessary things for our development.

I wonder why some people refuse to think that God created evil? It doesn't put God at fault or anything.[/

Nothing can exist without God's knowledge. There's a difference between God and Human beings. When you read Genesis, God did create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve through their act of disobedience to God ate of the tree thus becoming like God knowing good and evil. God cannot sin. Men and women fell into sin. So the point I am trying to make here is, Man sinned against God disobeying God. Had Adam and Eve been obedient to God, they would have both lived like angels in the Garden of Eden. I'd like to look at it this way. Man, through disobedience sinned against God bringing sin into existence. That's ok. It's all part of God's purpose that the human race be redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus for all their sins. And we are victorious in Jesus aren't we ?? Cheers

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

I was just thinking about it is all.

I meant no offense, of course. Please don't ever stop thinking! If you don't muse on your faith, it can be built on a weak foundation.

That being said, I think you should think some more on your OP.