Has anyone read "New Evangelicalism: The New World Order' by Paul Smith?

[AgeofKnowledge]

I was just given this book to read and will read it. If you have read this book, I would love to hear your thoughts:

New Evangelicalism: The New World Order: Paul Smith: 9781597519779: Amazon.com: Books

Note: The author is Chuck Smith's brother and was recently fired from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa after his brother's passing. It's my present understanding this is due to his firm commitment to the basic tenets of biblical Christianity and rejection of the emerging church movement which itself adheres to the points listed below though certainly not every emerging church leader and their congregation always adhere to all of them.

Note that both Chuck and Paul Smith positioned themselves against the emerging church movement with Chuck Smith releasing a doctrinal position paper opposing the emerging church movement before his death which you can read here.

The emerging church movement adheres to:

1. An awareness of and attempt to reach those in the changing postmodern culture.
2. An attempt to use technology, i.e., video, slide shows, internet.
3. A broader approach to worship using candles, icons, images, sounds, smells, etc.
4. An inclusive approach to various, sometimes contradictory belief systems.
5. An emphasis on experience and feelings over absolutes.
6. Concentration on relationship-building over proclamation of the gospel.
7. Shunning stale traditionalism in worship, church seating, music, etc.
8. A de-emphasis on absolutes and doctrinal creeds
9. A re-evaluation of the place of the Christian church in society.
10. A re-examination of the Bible and its teachings.
11. A re-evaluation of traditionally-held doctrines.
12. A re-evaluation of the place of Christianity in the world.

 

[dcontroversal]

Nope never read it......sorry!

 

[Tintin]

I was just given this book to read and will read it. If you have read this book, I would love to hear your thoughts:

New Evangelicalism: The New World Order: Paul Smith: 9781597519779: Amazon.com: Books

Note: The author is Chuck Smith's brother and was recently fired from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa after his brother's passing. It's my present understanding this is due to his firm commitment to the basic tenets of biblical Christianity and rejection of the emerging church movement which itself adheres to the points listed below though certainly not every emerging church leader and their congregation always adhere to all of them.

Note that both Chuck and Paul Smith positioned themselves against the emerging church movement with Chuck Smith releasing a doctrinal position paper opposing the emerging church movement before his death which you can read here.

The emerging church movement adheres to:

1. An awareness of and attempt to reach those in the changing postmodern culture.
2. An attempt to use technology, i.e., video, slide shows, internet.
3. A broader approach to worship using candles, icons, images, sounds, smells, etc.
4. An inclusive approach to various, sometimes contradictory belief systems.
5. An emphasis on experience and feelings over absolutes.
6. Concentration on relationship-building over proclamation of the gospel.
7. Shunning stale traditionalism in worship, church seating, music, etc.
8. A de-emphasis on absolutes and doctrinal creeds
9. A re-evaluation of the place of the Christian church in society.
10. A re-examination of the Bible and its teachings.
11. A re-evaluation of traditionally-held doctrines.
12. A re-evaluation of the place of Christianity in the world.

1. Excellent! We're called to reach out to the lost and to lead them to the Truth
2. Not sure why this is an issue
3. Not sure why this is an issue but it could go either way with the icons and images
4. Not aware of this, sounds problematic
5. An emphasis on experience and feelings over absolutes isn't good but a Christian faith with experiencing God isn't good
6. Proclaiming the gospel is involves building relationships with others to help them come to know the One who is Truth
7. And this is a problem how? Presentation of the message is important. The message should remain the same though
8. Really?
9. I don't see it
10. Again, really?
11. Again, really?
12. Again, really?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The emerging church movement adheres to:

1. An awareness of and attempt to reach those in the changing postmodern culture.
2. An attempt to use technology, i.e., video, slide shows, internet.
3. A broader approach to worship using candles, icons, images, sounds, smells, etc.
4. An inclusive approach to various, sometimes contradictory belief systems.
5. An emphasis on experience and feelings over absolutes.
6. Concentration on relationship-building over proclamation of the gospel.
7. Shunning stale traditionalism in worship, church seating, music, etc.
8. A de-emphasis on absolutes and doctrinal creeds
9. A re-evaluation of the place of the Christian church in society.
10. A re-examination of the Bible and its teachings.
11. A re-evaluation of traditionally-held doctrines.
12. A re-evaluation of the place of Christianity in the world.

^ The post-modern relativism, pluralism, etc... of numbers four and eight and found in nine thru twelve are already problematic in the emerging church movement. Read this by Dr. Norman Geisler, one of the most respected theologians of our generation: The Emergent Church Emergency

As you can see from his analysis, it's a very real slippery slope away from orthodoxy into error first, later heresy, and ultimately if taken far enough apostasy.

However, the emerging church movement is only partially in error of the first stage at this point so Geisler's conclusion is gracious:

"Of course, not all emergent beliefs are bad. De Young and Kluck summarize the situation well. They “have many good deeds. They want to be relevant. They want to reach out. They want to be authentic. They want to include the marginalized. They want to be kingdom disciples. They want community and life transformation….” However, “Emergent Christians need to catch Jesus’ broader vision for the church—His vision for a church that is intolerant of error, maintains moral boundaries, promotes doctrinal integrity, stands strong in times of trial, remains vibrant in times of prosperity, believes in certain judgment and certain reward, even as it engages the culture, reaches out, loves, and serves. We need a church that reflects the Master’s vision—one that is deeply theological, deeply ethical, deeply compassionate, and deeply doxological” (Why We’re Not Emergent, 247-248)."

1. Excellent! We're called to reach out to the lost and to lead them to the Truth
2. Not sure why this is an issue
3. Not sure why this is an issue but it could go either way with the icons and images
4. Not aware of this, sounds problematic
5. An emphasis on experience and feelings over absolutes isn't good but a Christian faith with experiencing God isn't good
6. Proclaiming the gospel is involves building relationships with others to help them come to know the One who is Truth
7. And this is a problem how? Presentation of the message is important. The message should remain the same though
8. Really?
9. I don't see it
10. Again, really?
11. Again, really?
12. Again, really?

 

[Tintin]

Okay, that sounds more reasonable. Can you give me a few examples of moral relativism, doctrines etc. within the emerging church?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Dr. Geisler's analysis lists the foundational problems but doesn't delve into case studies or specific examples of how that is manifesting beyond some quotes of emerging church movement leaders to highlight the foundational problems.

However, I think we have to separate the notorious postmodernism which arose under the "deconstructionists" (see Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, etc... as examples of these) from those who are taking "modernity" in a more constructive direction. It's desirable and biblical to be evangelistic and mission oriented. It's also desirable to meet genuine needs properly.

The problem arises when the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. Truth must be preserved and passed onto the next generation (including potentially uncomfortable and/or unpopular truths to some such as Jesus Christ is the son of God and the only way to God and eternal salvation for example) and disciples of truth raised to be practicing truth not just believing in Christ.

I think discussing specific observable manifestations of error in the emerging church movement would be the next step beyond simply listing the foundational problems. That's wise and I do appreciate you taking the time to spark this thread into life. However, I think I need to read this book first to better answer that question... lol.

Okay, that sounds more reasonable. Can you give me a few examples of moral relativism, doctrines etc. within the emerging church?

 

[Straightshot]

The "emergent" church movement is in vogue today and the proponents tell that the Bible is irrelevant for a post modern world ..... they say no one can understand it anyway and then proceed to make up their own way of "doing church"

This is hobgoblin

Need I say any more?

If you want to discuss further ask and I will accommodate you .... I know a great deal about the individuals involved and their ambitions

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

We're interested in a more intelligent discussion than "hobgoblin" and people ranting either for or against this movement. We're interested in properly understanding it. I hope you can appreciate that.

Since you've posted, try answering TinTin's question. Give a few examples that you believe are serious material deviations from doctrinal orthodoxy in the emerging church movement.

The "emergent" church movement is in vogue today and the proponents tell that the Bible is irrelevant for a post modern world ..... they say no one can understand it anyway and then proceed to make up their own way of "doing church"

This is hobgoblin

Need I say any more?

If you want to discuss further ask and I will accommodate you .... I know a great deal about the individuals involved and their ambitions

 

[Straightshot]

It is a fairly complex movement of various strains held by different pied pipers

And exactly what I mean .... it is all "hobgoblin"

And I would not have to try .... I understand the theology to the core

And until I decide whether to spend the time on the subject your presumptuous remark about my intelligence is not appreciated

I really question your motivation by making such a statement

I am very candid and will call a spade a spade when I see it .... this I must do as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

You never answered the question: Please list examples that you believe are serious material deviations from doctrinal orthodoxy in the emerging church movement.

 

[Straightshot]

I bottom lined the question .... the emergent, or emerging "church' movement is all hobgoblin to the max

So I did answer the question .... and also said that I would respond further if need be

Then you came back with your negative remarks

So I might respond further .... if I have time

If you cannot wait, then I would suggest that you do research on the matter as I have already done .... the various movements have been ongoing for several years and the Internet is loaded with evaluations of the same

The leaders do claim to be Christian and all of them are apostate to the max

 

[Joidevivre]

Age of Knowledge - your name sort of throws me off every time I see it. What does it mean? I never thought knowledge was an age. I thought God was the Spirit of Knowledge (Isa. 11:2) Isn't it His Spirit - not an age?

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean. Help?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

It's very simple. My moniker 'Age of Knowledge' is simply a nod to the fact that we live at a time where information is easily obtainable. You see I grew up in a time before the Internet, cell phones, portable computers, etc... when obtaining information was difficult in comparison to the present.

And Straightshot, you've not provided a single piece of empirical data to support your opinion. Opinions are helpful if they're properly supported but we're looking for actual evidence and specific examples to discuss not just completely unsupported opinions.

Age of Knowledge - your name sort of throws me off every time I see it. What does it mean? I never thought knowledge was an age. I thought God was the Spirit of Knowledge (Isa. 11:2) Isn't it His Spirit - not an age?

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean. Help?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Ok, I started reading this book by the now late Chuck Smith's brother. So far it's a theological treatise and a carefully documented historical record.

The thesis, in the fewest words I can manage, is that Protestant Christianity in Western Civilization has experienced a schism in the beginning of the 20th century that is widening as time progresses.

On one side you have Christians who retain bible inerrancy staying true to God's revelation and on the other you have modern/post-modern liberals who reject bible inerrancy and whom have already successfully replaced the Bible-based values of the nineteenth century with modern/post-modern "progressive" liberalism based on Marxism in the public culture and institutions and are deviating toward an elitist controlled one world system.

The latter, though most of them don't realize it, are unknowing victims of a movement to replace orthodox Christianity with a Marxist Sociologist ideology that has a clear beginning.

The work he's done on compiling a detailed and analytical historical record to support his thesis is excellent and compelling.

You can actually follow the progression from the schism (which occurred on September 12, 1905 at Peck's Restaurant at 140 Fulton Street in Lower Manhattan in which about one hundred people met to carefully calculate the overthrow of the Christian worldview in Western Civilization and replace it with the worldview of Karl Marx forming the Intercollegiate Socialist Society later changed to the League for Industrial Democracy) through to the present deviations of the emergent church movement and "new evangelicalism."

One of the more interesting case studies involved have to do with the ministry Peter Drucker (atheist and disciple of existential philosopher Soren Kierkegaard himself influenced heavily by Immanuel Kant) and evangelical Christian Rick Warren created.

Of course, I'm just scratching the surface here but that's the thesis.

 

[Straightshot]

Here are a few of the early leaders of the movement that you inquire about

1. Bell, Rob
2. Burke, John
3. Driscoll, Mark
4. Jones, Tony
5. Kimball, Dan
6. McClure, Joel
7. McLaren, Brian
8. Pagitt, Doug

This might be a way for you to listen to them and what has been evaluated about their behavior

All can be found on the Internet .... maybe you have already looked?

The movement is somewhat varied, but with some commonality among them

Here are some characteristics:

They consider the Bible to be irrelevant for today's post modern world and that one's religion must be made relevant .... in other words anything goes as long as it is relevant to the individual

They meet in community styled gatherings and just discuss things making up theory about anything that suits them

The themes are very humanistic and laced with ecumenical ambitions [all worship the same "god"].... to bring all religions into one unified whole regardless of proprietary set systems of belief

Anything and everything is acceptable and there are no absolutes ..... everything is relative

They tout what they call self felt needs and want to entertain the things that they want to hear rather than what they need to hear like the absolutes recorded in the scriptures of the Lord's Word

There ambition is to re-invent religion and particularly Christianity to be more attractive to people .... what ever works

Mystical practices are employed in the assemblies where the members sit and contemplate, to achieve a state of empty or open mindedness searching for truth

The pied pipers listed above and their followers claim to be "Christian" and yet they openly discount and even discard the very source that signifies and directs what being a follower of Jesus Christ is all about

Much can be said about this aberrant behavior and if you have further reasonable questions I can answer ... I have studied the movement for a long time and have written materials on the subject

The full scope of the same includes leaders of some of the various mega-churches that have been developed in the last 20 years which carry the same kind of baggage, but just in a different way

Rick Warren of Saddle Back and Bill Hybles of Willow Creek are examples

 

[SolidGround]

Be careful with this.
Don't blame Soren Keirkegaard for post-modernism.
His version of existentialism is pretty inline with Scripture.
It has moral responsibility separated from moral absolutes,
as in a person increases their guilt with their increase in knowledge of the Law.
He also gave several proofs that living out your faith in Christ has real power and effect in your attitude and actions, while just holding the belief in a cultural sense actually brings depression, doubts, and inner conflicts.
He also did proofs explaining how our actions earn us labels. As in if someone acts cruelly, they are a cruel person, or if a person commits sin they are a sinner.

Sartre is the one you want to blame for post-modernism.

As for the rest of those guys preaching social justice and denying the Word, sounds like a very heretical group.