I just can't wrap my mind around it...

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Inceptor

Guest
#1
The title of this thread may be the answer some people will offer, but I like to think that if God put us here and gave us this extraordinary intellect, then our logic, when properly dictated, can be applicable to figuring out the Great Lord's nature.

My experiences in life have taught me to ask questions and think things through, and the one I've never have answered to my satisfaction, is this: Where does an original creator hail from? Where does God come from?

On several occasions, people have suggested, with full confidence in their answer, that God is the denizen of an infinite universe, so that all that can ever happen, has happened, and thus gives result to God. But there is no substance, physically or critically, to give any hint to that realm. There's no realistic basis to these pre-God conditions.

I've heard any number of theories, but all in all, no one knows. That's really the bottom line. And if faith is all that's left, then I must admit, I feel like I am stepping into a pitch black room. That never ends well.

All my life, my family, my friends, all devout believers, all driven by faith... but I'm slipping... And for me at least, there doesn't seem to be anything to hang on to...
 
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wolfywolfs

Guest
#2
the annoying question thats always used in debates against atheism we get the "how did your computer get there someone made how did you get here god made there is always a creator something doesnt come from nothing" then we ask "how did god get here" which to the response "hes been here since the begiing of time" to the other obviously reply "but didnt you just say something doesnt come from nothing" how we all got here will proberly never be truly answered and always debated i guess you just pick what ever reason you like or you just dont care about it
 

shemaiah

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2011
2,233
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#3
Well basically you cant understand it... But you can know it... do not be filled with theories... The simple fact is that humans understand time. What is life without time? In heaven we wont have time, so what will it be like. Every moment is present without time, yeah the romans are still about...:) if God has a beginning then their was time. If He has no beginning, it means He is everywhere in every split millisecond, yeah it will take you days to comprehend... But the important thing is that He wants to be with you in every split millisecond, as long as you draw nearer to Him.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#4
I like to think that if God put us here and gave us this extraordinary intellect, then our logic, when properly dictated, can be applicable to figuring out the Great Lord's nature.
You may like to think that, but you really have little reason for doing so. For one thing, while our ability to be rational cognizers is impressive when one considers the nature of consciousness, we generally aren't that good at it. And, generally, it doesn't get us very far. As the atheist Austin Dacey once put it "almost nothing we can know, including our scientific knowledge, can be [logically deduced with certainty, free of doubt or error], except in logic and mathematics perhaps." But even truths of logic and mathematics we can struggle over. For instance, are all forms of modus ponens valid? Logicians aren't sure. Does mathematics model the world and what's the ontological statues of these things? Mathematicians aren't sure.

In fact, epistemologists (those who study the nature and theory of knowledge) aren't even sure what knowledge is! Everyone used to think that knowledge was "justified, true belief." But then came along Gettier and he screwed all that up for us. Now epistemologists just will say knowledge is something like "warranted, true belief"... but no one exactly knows exactly what constitutes a thing being warranted!

It's all pretty funny really, how much we seem to know about the world and yet, with a little digging, how much we actually don't know. It's pretty easy for us to know mundane truths like what you had for breakfast, what your name is, how much 2 + 2 equals, etc. But when we start looking at more foundational questions about the nature of reality (and even the nature of our knowledge) things start to fall apart fairly quickly. Now some epistemologists (I have in mind particularly Alvin Plantinga) would say that this is evidence that our intellect was designed to function best in these simple, mundane ways. That it starts hitting roadblocks and sputtering when applied to certain more fundamental questions is evidence that it simply wasn't designed to handle these sorts of things.

So while our intellect is an amazing feature of reality, we have no reason to think that it must be able to unfold the mysteries of God, especially since it can't even unfold the mysteries of itself! The nature of consciousness is, after all, still a hotly debated and mysterious topic in cognitive science and philosophy of mind!

So if we can't wrap our minds around our minds, it's pure hubris to think we can wrap our minds around God's mind.

My experiences in life have taught me to ask questions and think things through, and the one I've never have answered to my satisfaction, is this: Where does an original creator hail from? Where does God come from?
Well I must say that if you think this is the *one* thing you haven't answered to satisfaction then you must have a very low satisfaction threshold or you need to contact the media immediately and inform them that you're the one person who has satisfactorily answered all questions minus one. I'm sure the physicists will be delighted to hear your satisfactory reconciliation of quantum and newtonian physics. (No offense in the joke.)

But the question where does the creator come from is categorically confused on two levels (possibly). First, God isn't a spatiotemporal being. So he doesn't come from any place. Asking *where* he comes from is like asking what is taller than the tallest building. If you understand the concept of "tallest building" then you'll understand that asking which building is taller simply makes no sense. Likewise, if you understand the concept of a being which is not physical (God is a spirit) then you'll understand that asking for its location is a conceptual confusion. Second, the statement "come from" could imply origins, but not necessarily (which is why I said possibly). If this is what you mean by "come from" then it's another conceptual mistake since God exists necessarily and, therefore, doesn't originate from anything (especially not from anywhere).

On several occasions, people have suggested, with full confidence in their answer, that God is the denizen of an infinite universe, so that all that can ever happen, has happened, and thus gives result to God. But there is no substance, physically or critically, to give any hint to that realm. There's no realistic basis to these pre-God conditions.
Well whoever said this certainly wasn't following orthodox Christian theology... Maybe the person(s) who said this to you were Mormon, as it sounds like something they might say.

I've heard any number of theories, but all in all, no one knows. That's really the bottom line.
If God has revealed himself and his nature in Scripture then we can know at least some truths about God. So, for instance, if God reveals to us that He is a spirit then we can know that God doesn't "hail from" anywhere. If God reveals to us that he is eternal then we can know that he doesn't originate from anywhere.

And if faith is all that's left, then I must admit, I feel like I am stepping into a pitch black room. That never ends well.
You're already in the black room. In fact, you've been in the black room your entire life. If you haven't realized it yet, it's because you've got a puny candle in there with you and you've been focusing on that too much. There's nothing wrong with focusing on the light of the candle, in fact you have to if you want to keep from getting lost. But it would be a little naive to think the illuminated parts constitute all that there is to the room.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#5
the annoying question thats always used in debates against atheism we get the "how did your computer get there someone made how did you get here god made there is always a creator something doesnt come from nothing" then we ask "how did god get here" which to the response "hes been here since the begiing of time" to the other obviously reply "but didnt you just say something doesnt come from nothing" how we all got here will proberly never be truly answered and always debated i guess you just pick what ever reason you like or you just dont care about it
This is actually a common mistake on the part of the atheists, not the theist. (Although on one or two occasions I've seen it arise from the theist improperly stating the position.) The claim isn't that everything must come from something, but that that which begins to exist must have a cause.
 
I

Inceptor

Guest
#6
Well I must say that if you think this is the *one* thing you haven't answered to satisfaction then you must have a very low satisfaction threshold or you need to contact the media immediately and inform them that you're the one person who has satisfactorily answered all questions minus one. I'm sure the physicists will be delighted to hear your satisfactory reconciliation of quantum and newtonian physics. (No offense in the joke.)

But the question where does the creator come from is categorically confused on two levels (possibly). First, God isn't a spatiotemporal being. So he doesn't come from any place. Asking *where* he comes from is like asking what is taller than the tallest building. If you understand the concept of "tallest building" then you'll understand that asking which building is taller simply makes no sense. Likewise, if you understand the concept of a being which is not physical (God is a spirit) then you'll understand that asking for its location is a conceptual confusion. Second, the statement "come from" could imply origins, but not necessarily (which is why I said possibly). If this is what you mean by "come from" then it's another conceptual mistake since God exists necessarily and, therefore, doesn't originate from anything (especially not from anywhere).
It is the only obstacle for me because what is the foundation of theology? The idea that an all mighty being is the origin of all that is. It's starting to sound to me a little ridiculous.

You're saying God is a spirit. Well how do you know that? From a book? Why do we HAVE to accept that there is a God? How does such an entity exist necessarily? You just finished explaining that we can't trust our own logic as absolute.

That's where people resort to faith, and that's where I feel most uncomfortable.

Furthermore, why any specific God in particular? And why follow a specific interpretation of that God? If each group is saying they are right over the other, how do I pick which one? No matter how broad the ideology is, someone is always disagreeing with another.

I rather approach a mystery from a cautious angle. Carefully exploring the unknown, realizing that you do not know what is at the other end.

The way I'm starting to see things is that the universe is raw in form. Chaotic, ancient, and very natural. Whatever is out there, whatever came before it, and however it came into exist, is simply not known yet, and it's beginning to dawn on me that thinking otherwise is not the wisest thing to do.

I think that anticipating the unknown is something our flawed logic is capable of doing very well.

Please don't ban me!!!
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#7
It is the only obstacle for me because what is the foundation of theology? The idea that an all mighty being is the origin of all that is. It's starting to sound to me a little ridiculous.
Naturally, the "foundation" of theology is God and his self revelation... What else would it be? Just as the foundation of science is the world... What else would it be? I'm not sure why you find that problematic. Finding the idea of God ridiculous is one thing, but finding God as the foundation of theology ridiculous looks ridiculous to me.

You're saying God is a spirit. Well how do you know that?
You're just moving the goalpost. Clearly, your "one" problem wasn't really your "one" problem. You asked where God came from. I showed that that question doesn't even make sense on the biblical view of God. So if that was your "one" problem it just evaporated... but now you have a "new" problem (really it's just been brought to the surface, I think) which is you don't want to accept the idea that God is a spirit I guess?

You posed a problem "where does God come from" and I guess that *if God is supposed to have come from somewhere* then this question has the potential to uncover a ridiculous aspect in the idea of God. But in fact the question itself is what is ridiculous, so it does nothing to suggest any ridiculousness in the concept of God.

Now after having shown that the question is "ridiculous" (just to borrow your own terms) you want to ask "how do you know?" and this is a question we can repeat endless for *any* claim. But how I know that is really irrelevant to the fact that if God is a spirit, as Christianity claims He is, then your question "where does God come from?" doesn't uncover any ridiculousness in the concept of God. So if you want to say the idea of God is ridiculous you clearly haven't given us any reason to think so. And if you want to play the skeptics game of "how do you know? how do you know? how do you know?" I can easily tear apart every single one of your beliefs by mirroring your question. Thus, your problem will not ultimately rest in god-belief, but in any sort of belief!

From a book?
Right, from a book. I've never understood why atheists (and latent atheists?) have asked that question with such incredulity. Where did you get your education? From a book and from a guy (teacher) reading from a book... incredulous!

Why do we HAVE to accept that there is a God?
What does the word "have" even mean here?

How does such an entity exist necessarily?
Another question evidencing conceptual confusion. Things which exist necessarily have no explanation for their existence outside themselves, otherwise they wouldn't exist necessarily but contingently. Thus, a necessary being exists in virtue of its nature. If Anselm's ontological argument proves anything, it proves that the very concept of God from a Christian standpoint contains existence.

You just finished explaining that we can't trust our own logic as absolute.
Right. But I'm not sure what you're point is.

That's where people resort to faith, and that's where I feel most uncomfortable.
First, you should know that you're using "faith" here in a sense that doesn't align with how Christians have historically understood the term. Traditionally, Protestants have defined faith as being composed of the three elements of knowledge, assent, and trust. So having faith has no direct relationship to having reasons (or evidence) or not having reasons. But this isn't unique to Protestants, even Roman Catholics would agree that faith has no direct relationships to have or not having reasons. As the Catholic philosopher Edward Feser explains, faith "does not mean an irrational will to believe something for which there is no evidence" (Aquinas 2).

Second, it's not clear where or what you're referring to when you say "that's where...". What's where? But you're using faith in a sense of not knowing or at least not having reasons to believe. I don't think that's the case. If we have reasons to believe in God and reasons to believe in the Bible then indirectly we have reasons to believe all the particular claims of the Bible.

If that sounds confusing, consider this: You read an autobiography of Napoleon. Within the autobiography you read many different factual claims. Many of these you are able to verify but some you aren't. For example, Napoleon tells of a time when he spit in a puddle on his way to Russia. What evidence do you have for this claim? Well... none outside of his personal testimony. But this doesn't mean you have to adopt the belief "Napoleon spit in a puddle on his way to Russia" on something like "blind faith" or that you believe it without any reasons. Rather, the account of Napoleon is itself the reason and is a sufficient reason for believing the claim. Much of what can be verified from his account is verified and so you have reason to believe all the parts of the documents (or the document as a whole) without needing to have direct evidence of every particular event. And absent any evidence to the contrary I looks to me like you're perfectly warranted in believing the claim. (This is how historians work all the time.)

Furthermore, why any specific God in particular? And why follow a specific interpretation of that God?
And so obviously, again, your one problem wasn't your one problem. Rather, you have many problems with belief in God. But this makes me curious as to whether you really believed that you had just one problem to begin with and it just suddenly blossomed into a whole plethora of problems within the past couple hours?

Anyway, I'm sure you know that many works have been devoted to this subject. Surely you don't expect anyone here to tackle the massive task of analyzing each of the world religions and and then arguing how the Christian faith is the better explanation. For instance, Ravi Zacharias has written a book called "Jesus Among Other Gods" or you could start with Winfried Corduan's A Tapestry of Faiths or, if you're more into the philosophical, Stuart Hackett has an excellent book called "Oriental Philosophy" that examines the religions (or most of them) from a philosophical point and explains where he finds strengths and weaknesses in each that point towards the Christian God.

If each group is saying they are right over the other, how do I pick which one? No matter how broad the ideology is, someone is always disagreeing with another.
This is an objection I hear all the time. In fact I've heard it about two three times in the last month or so on this very website. So rather than start from scratch I'm just going to quote to you what I said to another person on this website a few weeks ago on this issue:

There are not just many different religious claims, but many different truth claims in every single field of inquiry (science, ethics, metaphysics, epistemology, aesthetics, and even mathematics!).

What it comes down to is that people disagree. And at most this demonstrates that not all persons are perfectly situated to grasp the truth. But it doesn't tell us that there is no truth to any claim and it doesn't even tell us why people disagree.

It may be in some cases that people disagree because the evidence is underdetermined. For instance, imagine that I tell you that I went to the grocery store and bought $10 worth of pop. Now let us say that Pepsi and Coke are the only two kinds of pop in existence. You also happen to know the cost of Pepsi and the cost of Coke respectively. Given this information, you have enough evidence to (perhaps) say that I may have bought 4 liters of Coke and 2 liters of Pepsi. You also know that I could have bought 6 liters of Coke and no Pepsi. But you also know that I could not have possibly bought 24 liters of Coke and 100 liters of Pepsi because, given what you know, that would work out to more than $10. So, the evidence is underdetermined. It rules out somethings but has room for others.

It may also be the case that people disagree over a truth claim because of bias, prejudice, or self-deception, or some deficiency in cognitive faculties.

The point is, no significant conclusion follows from the fact that there are many different religions. Indeed, whatever conclusion you think follows from this fact must pertain to all truth claims since there are many different truth claims and not just many different religions.​

There mere fact that each person thinks they are right shouldn't present you with any special difficulties. Wouldn't that make it awefully easy to throw one into confusion? You say to me "Hi, my name is _______." and I respond to you "No, you're name is not ______. And I'm right and you're wrong." would you seriously go "Oh my!!! Now what ever am I to do!! How can I know what my name is?!" No? Then why think it presents any difficulty in religious matters or in other fields of inquiry?

The way I'm starting to see things is that the universe is raw in form. Chaotic, ancient, and very natural. Whatever is out there, whatever came before it, and however it came into exist, is simply not known yet, and it's beginning to dawn on me that thinking otherwise is not the wisest thing to do.
So "I don't know" is less ridiculous than God? I don't see how that works. If after weighing the evidence we can't come to a conclusion then that's fine. But we can't throw our hands up and say we don't know prior to weighing the evidence. After all, it's not like persons are just saying "Goddidit," rather they argue that we have reasons to believe God did it. And there aren't a lot of options. Either the universe was brought into existence via a personal cause, an impersonal cause, popped into existence out of nothing, or the universe has always existed. We can reason our way through each of these and see which is the best explanation.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#8
By the way I'm going to be on hiatus from this website for a while, but if you send me a private message it will get to me through email and I can respond there.
 
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wolfywolfs

Guest
#9
This is actually a common mistake on the part of the atheists, not the theist. (Although on one or two occasions I've seen it arise from the theist improperly stating the position.) The claim isn't that everything must come from something, but that that which begins to exist must have a cause.
how is that a mistake on my part when it was these chrisitian i spoke to who said everything has a creator those are there words i thought i was pretty clear when i said who said that and of cause a reason person would ask whats god excuse for not haveing a creator and appearing out of nothing
 

Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
2,565
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#10
It is the only obstacle for me because what is the foundation of theology? The idea that an all mighty being is the origin of all that is. It's starting to sound to me a little ridiculous.

You're saying God is a spirit. Well how do you know that? From a book? Why do we HAVE to accept that there is a God? How does such an entity exist necessarily? You just finished explaining that we can't trust our own logic as absolute.

That's where people resort to faith, and that's where I feel most uncomfortable.

Furthermore, why any specific God in particular? And why follow a specific interpretation of that God? If each group is saying they are right over the other, how do I pick which one? No matter how broad the ideology is, someone is always disagreeing with another.

I rather approach a mystery from a cautious angle. Carefully exploring the unknown, realizing that you do not know what is at the other end.

The way I'm starting to see things is that the universe is raw in form. Chaotic, ancient, and very natural. Whatever is out there, whatever came before it, and however it came into exist, is simply not known yet, and it's beginning to dawn on me that thinking otherwise is not the wisest thing to do.

I think that anticipating the unknown is something our flawed logic is capable of doing very well.

Please don't ban me!!!
I've been down that road mate. How can you place more trust in there being an alternative explanation for the existence of the world for which there is no evidence, than an explanation which, although hard to digest, is perfectly valid. You're talking about what came before this world and alternatives to God creating the world, but you're placing faith in unknowns. That's not wise at all.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#11
how is that a mistake on my part when it was these chrisitian i spoke to who said everything has a creator those are there words i thought i was pretty clear when i said who said that and of cause a reason person would ask whats god excuse for not haveing a creator and appearing out of nothing
I didn't say it was your mistake in particular. I said it was a common mistake.
 
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Ash_JFF

Guest
#12
Think about it this way: you know there is the chain of cause and effect right? Well logically there has to be a beginning to set that chain off, there has to be an uncaused cause or put it another way, something that was never caused to cause everything else. God is the uncaused cause. Nothing caused Him but He caused everything else. I hope that made sense.
 
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wolfywolfs

Guest
#13
Think about it this way: you know there is the chain of cause and effect right? Well logically there has to be a beginning to set that chain off, there has to be an uncaused cause or put it another way, something that was never caused to cause everything else. God is the uncaused cause. Nothing caused Him but He caused everything else. I hope that made sense.
what other examples of an uncaused cause
 
Jun 20, 2010
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#14
I am comfortable with the idea of an uncaused cause, I just have no evidence to say what it was. Strictly speaking means i'm agnostic too.
edit: Thought this was a new thread, now i see its a revived thread =p