Kick Them Out!

konroh · Nov 19, 2013

When my church was just getting started and meeting in a rented facility we had man in his 50s come to church a few times. After feeling accepted, he then came again, this time dressed as a woman with a wig, dress and makeup. We still accepted him, though there were some issues with him going into the ladies room, some mother's didn't want him going in there when there were little children inside. We continued to accept him, no one told him he couldn't come, and it actually was a good learning experience for our church to be accepting of many different people. To this day, my church has the most diversity of class and age of any I've ever been to. Unfortunately, this man/woman decided that our love the sinner/hate the sin approach was not for him. But he taught us a valuable lesson.

I was also involved in a church discipline procedure where 2 men in the church were disciplined for sexual immorality, one married, one not. The married one divorced his wife and left the church. The single guy married the girl, but they divorced and he's now on his 3rd marriage, though still an accepted member. This feels a little like gossip to me so I pray no one is hurt by this. To God be the glory.

konroh · Nov 19, 2013

But Jesus would keep coming back to every church, He'd start his own Internet forum, He'd be both on TV and He'd have a grassroots movement. He wouldn't be denied until we crucified Him. Then He'd come back to life and His followers would be so loyal they'd turn the world upside down.

Rockbysea · Nov 19, 2013

I’m not saying that an unrepentant sinner will receive the Holy Spirit. What I’m saying is that there is no evidence in the scriptures that one who genuinely repents and receives the Holy Spirit that he may never sin again at some point in the future.

Cobus said:

In John 16:8 Jesus is not talking about all those that will not receive Him and He (the Holy Spirit) still reproves them anyway of sin. He’s talking about a time in the near future when He will send the Helper to the apostles and the Helper “will reprove the world of sin.” And that’s exactly what happened, word for word, not long after during Pentecost when we read Acts 2.

In Act 2 you will see that the Holy Spirit doing miracles and by using Peter’s mouth He did reprove them and they were “cut to the heart” and many repented and were baptized. .So we see in that scripture John 6:8 that Jesus was not talking about those who “CANNOT receive Him. He was saying the opposite that the Helper would reprove and many would repent and receive Him

Cobus said:

There is no evidence that someone with the Holy Spirit, a child of God, sins and then repents that God his Father will not forgive him. The Lord said to Peter, (who does not have the measure of God’s mercy) when he asks, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.”

If Peter is taught by His Father to forgive his brother in this manner, so can his Father forgive Peter His child in this manner if He chooses. If the fathers of the wicked repeatedly forgive their children when they repent, how much more will the greatest and most loving Father of them all forgive His children, and only those who have the Holy Spirit are His children, when they truly repent?

Cobus said:

You shot yourself in the foot with that one Cobus….You gave two examples of persons receiving the Holy Spirit and don’t become perfect “on the spot”.

Cobus said:

So those who receive the Holy Spirit become instantly perfect “on the spot”. And those who receive the Holy Spirit and sin will instantly die “on the spot.”

Rockbysea · Nov 19, 2013

konroh said:

Agreed..... He'd also be on Facebook

LT · Nov 19, 2013

Rockbysea said:

he could even resurrect myspace and be on that too!

...was that to irreverent?

Rockbysea · Nov 19, 2013

LT said:

It may take Him a little time to get around to text messaging....

loveme1 · Nov 19, 2013

Psalm 23

1{A Psalm of David.} The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Is our duty not to simply follow our Good Shepherd?

DecentGuy · Nov 19, 2013

loveme1 said:

hello @loveme1
It is indeed,,,
but we are also bound to forgive those who know not...and befriend them, giving them the opportunity to join the rest of us who enjoy the benevolence of our savior.

Hence...my own allurement to the community ..it is our duty to pray and encourage those who are not a part of this wonderful experience and discover the joys for themselves.

Kind regards
DecentGuy

JaumeJ · Nov 19, 2013

It seems if we follow the Good Shepherd in spirit and truth, what you have added here would naturally follow. Maybe I am simplifying.

DecentGuy said:

john832 · Nov 19, 2013

Wanderers said:

One thing to consider is we do not know the attitude of the adulterous woman. Had she repented? Christ could discern her heart, we cannot. We must infer that she did because throughout the gospels, Christ taught repentance...

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Now, the problem in the church at Corinth was two fold...

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

This fellow was fornicating with his step mother but that was not the only problem...

1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

The Corinthian church was proud of their "tolerance" of this sin. Paul not so much.

KohenMatt · Nov 19, 2013

tdrew777 said:

Like I said, he only came occasionally. And we always have a group of elders that meet with people in similar situations. Our position has been that when a person's thoughts or actions are a very real danger, whether physically or smpiritually to a member of our church, its time to have that person leave. If they want to continue with our church, there is going to be a season of private mentorship and discipling before coming back into community.

Case in point.... We have a young man who just got out of prison and wants to start going to our church. He was a sex offender with a minor. Before coming into our fellowship, he's going to meet weekly with members or our leadership for a few months for us to get to know him, and him to get to know us before he enters into community with others, including our teenagers.

john832 · Nov 19, 2013

KohenMatt said:

In this modern age of "civil rights" it seems that many churches have decided that it is not politically correct to safeguard the flock. Paul thought it was prudent to put an habitual sinner out because it could cause others to sin...

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Leaven has been and still is a type of sin (hence the Days of Unleavened Bread associated with the Passover) and a little sin that is tolerated leads to more sin. Paul's advice is timeless...

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

And this is not only applied to sexual sins, notice the list in verse 11?

Whether the ACLU likes it or not, there comes a time when an unrepentant sinner must be removed from the congregation to prevent him from leading others into sin.

Cobus · Nov 19, 2013

I’m not saying that an unrepentant sinner will receive the Holy Spirit. What I’m saying is that there is no evidence in the scriptures that one who genuinely repents and receives the Holy Spirit that he may never sin again at some point in the future.

Ok I will show you the Scritpure and all the proof you need to know this.... But you have to now for a while believe as I do, that the Holy Spirit is only given to SIANTS... people that ALREADY stopped sinning but God makes perfect by implanting the Holy Spirit...

Ok just for a while, think as I believe.... that the Holy Spirit is only IMPLANTED, FULFILLED, and 100% given to your flesh when God has COMPLETELY sanctified, and justified you... You are a CLEAN PURE VESSEL that does not sin, not even once, for however long. Let us says for three weeks God kept you out of sin... Not even a foul thought, not swear thought of hateful thought... PURE AS GOD IS PURE.... You have purified yourself bu the LEAD of the Holy Spirit as HE LEAD your spirit by Himself from heaven.

Let us say for three weeks after 15 years of repentance, you are KEPT clean as the Spirit does not lead you into temptation... You live a PURE life like a saint does.... So you did this....And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
So you did this, you are now FINISHED purifying yourself as He is pure and God even helped you to remain pure for three weeks... And you did this this is why you ARE this pure.... See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Let us say you did not refuse Him that speak from heaven, and you did ALL he said you should do, and you walked with him and that is all done now you arrived where you were called too.... to be SAINT...

So you are now physically pure, morally blameless and most holy one.... Seperated by God to ABSOLUTE pure state.... And this is what a SAINT is... A SAINT is as taken out of Sin, as God NEVER was in sin.... So the Saint is washed by the blood to absolute SPOTLESS purity...
You are now this pure, but you are only without sin, NOT PERFECT YET... Remember being without sin is NOT PERFECT YET...

Now God says this...Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Ok if we look at this verse.... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.... Please note that from the moment a person is born of God such a person doth not sin.... Why? Because HIS SEED remaineth in him... Do you see that from the moment God puts HIS SEED in a person that person is BORN OF GOD, With GOD'S SEED IN HIM?

I believe the SEED of God is the Holy Spirit of God.... Rebirth is like Jesus said.... Born of the Spirit, and God says... Born of God! We know God is Spirit, Holy Spirit so it is absolutely the same thing... But there is another thing we HAVE to notice... God says whosoever is BORN of God sinneth not... That means form the BORN of God stage that person CANNOT sin.... because HE IS BORN of God... not grown in God BORN of GOD...

Rebirth is the PERFECTION stage.... When God gives you the SEED the HOLY SPIRIT you CANNOT sin.....

Now about Ananias and Sapphira..... They were one of the FIRST church, but God did not give names of the 5000 men, I cannot say Ananias was one of the 5000. He might have been or not, God knows. All I know is like Satan we also can sin when we do get the Holy Spirit, but that is where God says.... For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I searched for people in the Bible that did this sillu thing, and maybe Ananias and Sapphira were the only two sdave two of Pauls knowledges as well... But that is not to clear.... All I know it is VERY unlikely that there are such unwise people.... But it is not Impossible, and it is a DEFENATE DEATH... Dead to God and the Kingdom that is....

My friend thank you for the time you spend with me, I hope we move to God's will and Truth....

Take your time on this one... Try to see it as i see it, I promise you it fits PERFECTLY in the Word of God....

BeanieD · Nov 19, 2013

Telling the pastor that he is not speaking the truth during service. Whew! Can't answer the rest though.

Rockbysea · Nov 19, 2013

Cobus said:

There's nothing more I can say that I haven't already said Cobus my friend... you're saying the same things over and over again and I am unable to do that. You’re ignoring the misinterpretation you made of John 16:8 that I pointed out to you and also ignoring all the scripture, including your own scriptural references, that doesn’t fit your teaching. I’ve painstakingly gone through a lot of your commentary and I’ve summed up your teaching in the final two sentences of my last post.

The hardest thing for people to do is discover their wrong. I was wrong about John the Baptist… I thought at one time he was a mortal sinner but you corrected me. Then I changed my view and came on the board and gave you the credit for that correction. Sure I felt bad at first when I discovered I was wrong, more so because I may have helped others to believe the same error.

Ive been wrong many times... One time I was so distraught because of HUGE errors that I went on to all the discussion boards that I posted my erroneous views…. views that I passionately upheld and was driving down people’s throats for years… On two of the boards I created my own thread to state my error and offer my apology. At first the feeling is very bad, horrible… but then after I got it out of the way the feeling was wonderful…. like a tremendous weight was lifted because I was no longer teaching error and also because I did something that I don’t think I’ve ever seen others do…. publicly admit error.

He who can quickly admit he’s wrong will almost always be right.

Cobus · Nov 20, 2013

Rockbysea, let us look at Ananias and Sapphira.... They lied ONCE and died! WOW! Why did they die. You say if a person has the Holy Spirit he can sin and God will forgive him.... Did God forgive Ananias? What about his wife a few minutes later? You say they had the Holy Spirit in them, and they sinned by lieing to the Holy Spirit, then why did they DIE ON THE SPOT? I thiought you teach God will forgive if you have the Holy Spirit, and sin? Why did he NOT forgive Ananias or Sapphira?

If they did have the Holy Spirit and they sinned ONCE by leing, why did they die on the spot? You claim you also have the Holy Spirit as Ananias had, and you sin 100's of times, why are you still alve? God had Ananias die for ONE sin, and you live after 100's? I mean you lied to me many times right here on this chat. Why are you still alive? God says that whosoever is born of His cannot sin, you say the opposite! So who must I believe? You or God?

My dear friend, you say I keep saying the same thing over and over, but why should I say ANYHTING else than just this...Any person who has the SEED of God in him CANNOT SIN! God says so, and I beleive Him. Now you come and with just about one or two verses that has a reason to show how God saves PERFECTLY, you want to proof that God actually meant something else than CANNOT SIN.... My friend I will show you something...

We all learned the sky is blue! We all believe on a cloudless day in mid afternoon if we look to heavens it is a beautiful blue...BUT!!!! what if I take my son and teach him from birth that that colour is not blue, but yellow.... And I teach him yellow id actually blue... I do this for thirty years.... Now you meet this thirty yearold man and he tells you... did you see how yellow the sky is today? There is not a single cloud in the sky, just beautiful yellow skies....
Now you walk out and he says... look how clear yellow the skies are.... And man he doe not know he is wrong, he was taught wrong from birth.... Do you think he will accept your word if you tell him.... Hey, man, the sky is blue.

It is the same with me trying to teach you.... Every person that has the SEED of GOD in him sinneth NOT! nd He cannot sin because He is BORN OF GOD.... Now ONE man and ONE woman did sin AFTER they were enlightened, and tasted the GOOD Word of God, and the powers of the World to come... just one man and one woman, ALL the others did NOT SIN. now I am wrong and you are right. WOW!

Again, Ananias and Sapphira DID sin ONCE with the Holy Spirit is them... so God is wrong! Whosoever is born of God still sin... Should we not change that verse in the Bible? 1 John 3:9 should read..... Whosoever is born of God sinneth not (mostly not) for His Seed remaineth in him (most of the time) and he cannot sin (or almost cannot) for he is born of God (almost born of god).... No my friend. I cannot do that? I just CANNOT! If God does not remove the sinners from His Church, and let them DIE! Then I do not want to be part of that church.... I do NOT want sin in GOD! If there is sin in God, then he is like I am, and I might as well be His God then.

Who is God amongst the sinners? And who is God of the NON SINNERS? Oh wait there is no NON SINNERS... Ok then who is God of the sinners? SATAN... then there is no HOLY GOD!

Do you see what you presume? Do you see the ERROE in NOT HAVING PERFECT people on earth? That means there is NO KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH! And how can Jesus be SINLESS and PERFECT on earth IF GOD IS NOT HERE?

One more thing.... God says that the righteous is as righteous as HE IS RIGHTEOUS.... please tell me is there sin in God's righteousness? The ONLY way God can sin, is to transgress his OWN STATUTES....

Now the last point I will make.... Do you think if God CAUSE you to walk in HIS STATUTES, and KEEP HIS judgement, you can still sin? Remember it is GOD HIMSELF THAT CAUSE you to walk in HIS STATUTES, Do you think he will KEEP you as perfect as He is perfect?

P_rehbein, please do not misunderstand this.... IF GOD FORCE/CAUSE/MAKE you live perfect as He is perfect, can you still sin? If you can then take Him of the Throne and you go sit on it, for then you are more powerful than God Himself.... My friend take these two verses (Ezekiel 36:26 and 27), and MEDITATE on it, ASK God to SHOW you like John the Baptist, and remember the moment you are BORN OF GOD you are GREATER than John the Baptist... not equel to John GREATER than John....You owill be equel to JESUS! not John JESUS!!!! John said greater is HE that comes.. and Jesus says even the SMALLEST in the Kingdom is GREATER than John.... If You are Born of God, from that moment you are IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and PART OF THE KINGDOM... GEATER THAN JOHN and at LEAST equel to Jesus.....

My friend I ACHE if you reject the Word of God. I ache becasue I can SEE you in Jesus.... And do you know what? If you are IN HIM, he is IN YOU... and there is NO SIN IN EITHER.... God has taken OVER! So please LET GOD TAKE OVER.... My friend do not reject a single verse from God's Bible.... God is the END TO SIN.... There is NO SIN IN HIM.... Please I love you too much to give up, but I know I am starting to irritate you so I will back down. I will only hope God will ave you from the OLD MAN and the OLD FAITH of FALSENESS.... It is FALSE to say a man with the Holy Spirit in him is NOT HOLY. You know I only know one Holiness.... GOD'S.. if there is sin in God's Holiness, then God is as evil as Satan... then there is no Holy God....

Here is Ezekiel ONCE AGAIN, this time read it and just meditate on this....

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Rockbysea · Nov 20, 2013

Cobus said:

You are ignoring the scriptures that don’t support your teaching and you are ignoring your misinterpretation of the scripture I pointed out:

The scriptures show that a brother sinned and was forgiven after repentance.
The scriptures show that the Father taught Peter to forgive his brother (brother means son of the Father with the Holy Spirit) 70 x 7.

According to you the Father is teaching His children to forgive each other 70x7 but He will not even forgive His children once but kill them on the spot.

Cobus teachings:

You are not a child of God and eventually you come to the point where you demonstrate repentance of your sins and you are a saint.
You are still not yet a child of God because you do not have the Holy Spirit.
Then at some point when you are a saint (not a child of God) God sees that you are ready because you are close to perfection and you have demonstrated genuine repentance.
Then God forgives you of your past sins because you demonstrate true repentance.
Now you are still not His child just because He forgave you, He still must give you the Holy Spirit to be born of God and be His child.
Then after he forgives you of all your past sins then He gives you the Holy Spirit.
At that point you instantly become His perfect child… a perfect child of God.
So now you’re a perfect child of God because you have the Holy Spirit plus all past sins wiped out.
Now if that child of God sins just once God kills him on the spot.

What does that mean?

It means when you were not God’s child, when you didn’t have the Holy Spirit, God was willing to forgive you of all your sins. But now that you are His child because you do have the Holy Spirit, God will not forgive you of one sin and He will kill you right on the spot.

That means God the Father will never forgive His children if they sin just once but instead He will kill them all on the spot. He only forgives those who are not his children (because they still did not receive the Holy Spirit) but He will never forgive His children… no not even once. But instead He will kill them on the spot.

Cobus... your teachings are bizarre

Rockbysea · Nov 20, 2013

Cobus said:

Cobus… remember when in this thread when someone posted that you said you were perfect and you told them to show them where you said that?

Why are you doing the same thing that you accused another of doing? Where did I say I sinned 100s of times?

You see? Not only are you full of error for teaching that we have a Father in Heaven that will kill His children on the spot if they sin just once totally ignoring the scripture about the prodigal son… you’re also a hypocrite for doing exactly the same thing?

Are you saying because I was wrong on a discussion board that I sinned 100s of times? Do you even know what the discussion was about before calling me a liar? The discussions were about politics… in particular banking and economics.

Does that make me a sinner 100 times over? Even if it’s not about economics and banking like my error about John the Baptists… is my Father now going to kill me on the spot?

You are teaching that God the Father will show no mercy towards His children… none. He will kill them on the spot if they sin just once.. even if they err in interpretation of the scripture. Who is going to believe this sick-freak teaching of yours? You’re right… you do not have the Holy Spirit and in my opinion, contrary to what you think about yourself, you are not a saint.

Bookends · Nov 22, 2013

loveme1 said:

Mark 9

Jesus Forbids Sectarianism

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”

[SUP]39 [/SUP]But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. [SUP]40 [/SUP]For he who is not against us is on our side. [SUP]41 [/SUP]For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

Romans 8:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Now Loveme1, I respect and love you and by no means really want to put you on the spot, but how do you work out the apparent contractions between what you said (with Matt 7) and with these verses in Mark 9 and Romans 8?

How can the Spirit testify with our spirit that we are children of God, but yet the Children of God you say, don't know they are Children of God yet?

Also Jesus says that those who cast out demons in my name are on my side in Mark 9. Since the bible can't contradict itself, then one of us must not have a full understanding of Matt. 7 or Mark 9 and be interpreting something with error. So I guess maybe we better look a little deeper at context and try to see what Jesus was really addressing? hmmm? Matt. 7:23 has the answer, along with Matt. 7:4-5!

Bookends · Nov 22, 2013

loveme1 said:

DecentGuy said:

Yes, but the church is for the gathering of the Believers.

1. I'm not saying non-believer can't attend church. For the word is preached there. Yes, people get saved in local churches.
2. I'm not saying we should kick out non-believers, but if their intention is to disrupt, contest, contradict, then yes.
3. You can't kick anyone out of God's Church if they never belonged in the first place.
4. Our primary mission field is not the local Church, it's our refueling station, our mission field is outside the local church among the world and in our communities.

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