Life

[Stuey]

Hello again - Sorry for the vague title but I would like to avoid theological copy paste meanderers finding this... Please slow down when you read this, it is a very politicised topic and sometimes I feel this politicisation can prevent actual productive discussion.

Something I have been pondering. The general Christian view, and the one I have held, in regards to when life begins is at conception.

What I would like to ask is WHY?

Looking biblically, I can't find much on the subject, one of the psalms talks about knitting David together in the womb and there are a few vague references here and there. Medically speaking there are many conceptions that do not result in pregnancy. If this is the case, why do we view life as starting from conception? Are these conceptions that are essentially miscarried within a week life? Will we see these people in heaven?



Thinking about it... I don't know if there is really any way that we can know when the soul enters the body and a human is created. Are there other potential points apart from conception? Implantation into the womb? 40 days? 3 months? When the baby becomes viable outside of the womb? (approximately 20 weeks?) Indeed I could even see an argument for it being the first breath, given that, "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

This uncertainty for a Christian would lead to extreme caution. Who are we to judge when a child becomes a child? As such we shouldn't do anything that could result in killing. Simply not worth the risk.

I think the entire concept of abortion is wrong personally - even if the soul hasn't entered the child so to speak. It seems to be perverting the natural course that God created and allowing even greater irresponsibility among youth today.

From a non-Christian perspective, however, there is nothing wrong with the concept (unless it involves killing) as the world wasn't created by God.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[TigerScent777]

...interesting question: does the/a spirit-soul actually enter into the newly conceived body created through
man/woman - that once pre-existed outside of it? Or is it created via conception?

Christ in the bible clearly states that John the Baptist was'Elijah'. He did not say 'this man came in the 'spirit of Elijah', but that he 'was Elijah' - indicating that via the Will of God, a pre-existing person can be made to re-incarnate.

Mat 11:11 "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the
Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent
men take it by force.
Mat 11:13 "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
Mat 11:15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Im not suggesting this follows the hindu model of re-incarnation, but that if it is Gods Will that a spirit-
soul be re-born into another body and identity; - then who is to say it cannot be done and would not happen.
Christ said it of Elijah; however Elijah was taken up intact ie: spirit, soul and body; so his body would
have totally spiritualized and elevated in an inconvievable manner.

Jer 1:4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have
appointed you a prophet to the nations."

...a different variation ie: of the spirit returning to a body ie:

Luk 8:54 He, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, "Child, arise!"
Luk 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given
her to eat.

...my belief and understanding regarding the 'resurrection of the body', is that the spirit of a godly
person; who is with God - at the time of resurrection; (and where God restores the body from the dust in the
ground, where it is 'sleeping')..., melds with or re-enters into the resurrected body again...

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be
preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

...further issues...

...one cannot but think of cloning; and 'dolly the sheep'..., whose DNA was taken from the udder of another
sheep (hence the name dolly after Dolly Parton: for obvious reasons). Where does and where 'would' the soul
come from? My thoughts are that this may be a way for spirits 'cast into outer darkness' with regards to
humans; to attach to a cloned body.

This being the case; in turn would create much evil in the world and open a portal to the realms of darkness. Humanity would become corrupted again, were there to be births created from cloned and natural humans, and the situation created by fallen angels interfering with the daughters of men and giving birth to Rephaim in pre-flood times, would be recreated in a different but similar context - that of a rebellion to God that corrupted Gods blueprint of DNA in man/woman..., in this instance mutating, degrading and weakening its integrity...further...

Mat 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and
gnashing of teeth.

The 'outer darkness' by indications given; is a spiritual place that is distant from the 'Light and Glory of
God', where it seems discarnate spirits are located...It appears that hell and the abyss are even worse
places and total distance from God..., where worse spirits are chained ... a disturbing thought...; so we must be
'right before Gods eyes', not necessarily mans or 'religious and churchianities eyes', but right in the Spirit
of Truth and Rightness; which is God...

I am personally very against cloning humans (except for cloning body parts: which is a good thing I believe)...this is one
of the primary reasons - and then it also opens up another can of worms we don't want...

 

[Jullianna]

Hello again - Sorry for the vague title but I would like to avoid theological copy paste meanderers finding this... Please slow down when you read this, it is a very politicised topic and sometimes I feel this politicisation can prevent actual productive discussion.

Something I have been pondering. The general Christian view, and the one I have held, in regards to when life begins is at conception.

What I would like to ask is WHY?

Looking biblically, I can't find much on the subject, one of the psalms talks about knitting David together in the womb and there are a few vague references here and there. Medically speaking there are many conceptions that do not result in pregnancy. If this is the case, why do we view life as starting from conception? Are these conceptions that are essentially miscarried within a week life? Will we see these people in heaven?



Thinking about it... I don't know if there is really any way that we can know when the soul enters the body and a human is created. Are there other potential points apart from conception? Implantation into the womb? 40 days? 3 months? When the baby becomes viable outside of the womb? (approximately 20 weeks?) Indeed I could even see an argument for it being the first breath, given that, "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

This uncertainty for a Christian would lead to extreme caution. Who are we to judge when a child becomes a child? As such we shouldn't do anything that could result in killing. Simply not worth the risk.

I think the entire concept of abortion is wrong personally - even if the soul hasn't entered the child so to speak. It seems to be perverting the natural course that God created and allowing even greater irresponsibility among youth today.

From a non-Christian perspective, however, there is nothing wrong with the concept (unless it involves killing) as the world wasn't created by God.

What are your thoughts on this?

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my mother's womb he has spoken my name.

Stuey, there is so much we don't know about what happens regarding our coming into this world. You admittedly don't know either, right? Knowing how precious life is to God, why would we want to risk being wrong either way about what happens when and take a chance on being guilty of destroying a life?

We know that not all babies survive the womb for whatever reason. While we don't know all of the reasons why, we can be comforted in knowing that it was nothing we did that caused the death of an unborn child. I couldn't handle that blood on my hands, could you?

 

[Mo0448]

...interesting question: does the/a spirit-soul actually enter into the newly conceived body created through
man/woman - that once pre-existed outside of it? Or is it created via conception?

Christ in the bible clearly states that John the Baptist was'Elijah'. He did not say 'this man came in the 'spirit of Elijah', but that he 'was Elijah' - indicating that via the Will of God, a pre-existing person can be made to re-incarnate.

Mat 11:11 "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the
Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent
men take it by force.
Mat 11:13 "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
Mat 11:15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Im not suggesting this follows the hindu model of re-incarnation, but that if it is Gods Will that a spirit-
soul be re-born into another body and identity; - then who is to say it cannot be done and would not happen.
Christ said it of Elijah; however Elijah was taken up intact ie: spirit, soul and body; so his body would
have totally spiritualized and elevated in an inconvievable manner

I believe that the scripture you posted references the end of the old testament Malachi where in order to associate the importance of the one who is coming, the one who is preparing the way for Jesus the prophet Malachi references Elijah not necessarily meaning that "Elijah" is coming back again but one similar to Elijah one that should be respected as Elijah. That is my understanding of it. Isaiah also references it in Isaiah 40 I am sure you are familiar with the verses; a voice crying out in the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord. My understanding is that John the Baptist was the one "like Elijah" that the prophecy describes. Interestingly enough, if taken literal one is waiting for Elijah to come back again! I hope this clears up your thoughts a little!

God Bless

 

[TigerScent777]

I believe that the scripture you posted references the end of the old testament Malachi where in order to associate the importance of the one who is coming, the one who is preparing the way for Jesus the prophet Malachi references Elijah not necessarily meaning that "Elijah" is coming back again but one similar to Elijah one that should be respected as Elijah. That is my understanding of it. Isaiah also references it in Isaiah 40 I am sure you are familiar with the verses; a voice crying out in the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord. My understanding is that John the Baptist was the one "like Elijah" that the prophecy describes. Interestingly enough, if taken literal one is waiting for Elijah to come back again! I hope this clears up your thoughts a little!

God Bless

...nope - I have heard that reasoning before; and that is not the implication of Christs Words...I did state:

"Christ in the bible clearly states that John the Baptist was 'Elijah'. He did not say 'this man came in the 'spirit of Elijah', but that he 'was Elijah' - indicating that via the Will of God, a pre-existing person can be made to re-incarnate."

Christ also said: "Mat 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come." ... which indicated that He knew some would not be able to accept it...

...I have not addressed the issue of abortion however, as I felt the issue of pre-existence was more in the fore of my mind, however - I believe birth of a new being into this world is a great experience and event; and should be regarded and valued as such. Saying that, if a child was to be born deformed or abnormal - and live a life of pain and rejection, some may out of compassion not want that to occur...I would not sit in judgement of them..., that is between them and God..., a tough and painful subject area..., rather take all the precautions and tests beforehand ...

 

[Mo0448]

...nope - I have heard that reasoning before; and that is not the implication of Christs Words...I did state:

"Christ in the bible clearly states that John the Baptist was 'Elijah'. He did not say 'this man came in the 'spirit of Elijah', but that he 'was Elijah' - indicating that via the Will of God, a pre-existing person can be made to re-incarnate."

Christ also said: "Mat 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come." ... which indicated that He knew some would not be able to accept it...

...I have not addressed the issue of abortion however, as I felt the issue of pre-existence was more in the fore of my mind, however - I believe birth of a new being into this world is a great experience and event; and should be regarded and valued as such. Saying that, if a child was to be born deformed or abnormal - and live a life of pain and rejection, some may out of compassion not want that to occur...I would not sit in judgement of them..., that is between them and God..., a tough and painful subject area..., rather take all the precautions and tests beforehand ...

While I understand your argument and your reasoning behind it, I would have to say I disagree with all due respect. Your suggestion that when Jesus clearly says that John the Baptist was Elijah. There are many parts of scripture where God or Jesus clearly says something but it is supposed to be interpreted as a metaphor or other figures of speech. God says in Genesis, "eat from this tree and you will most certainly DIE", he clearly says DIE but not a physical death as the words would suggest but a metaphorical death, a death to Him which would and could clearly be the same as dying. Jesus says I am the way the truth and the light. Jesus isn't LIGHT itself but light used in the terms of guidance.

I also found another contradiction in your statement, where in John 1:21 when John the Baptist's disciples asked him are you Elijah he clearly says HE IS NOT ELIJAH. They asked, simply, Are you Elijah? John answered No, because the question seems to have been asked if John was Elijah in a literal sense -- i.e., they were asking if John was a re-appearance of Elijah, the Old Testament prophet last seen going up to heaven in a whirlwind and a chariot of fire. John the Baptist was not literally Elijah; he was physically born as a separate entity a different person. He does not even appear to portray the same personality traits as seen by Elijah in my opinion.

But if they had asked, Are you the symbolic or the "Elijah" that there were prophasies about? the answer would have been Yes. And that is the sense which Jesus uses to identify John as Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 looms large in the background here. John /did/ acknowledge that was a forerunner -- that someone much greater was coming after him. And this forerunner-role interlocks with Malachi 3:1a. I feel that while you have points to prove your thought process you were interpreting Malachi to mean that Elijah would literally return to prepare the way for the Messiah, rather than interpreting Malachi to mean that someone would arrive on the scene who would be reminiscent of Ellijah. And thats understandable, since technically the text of Malachi 3:1a and 4:5 is open to either a literal or a figurative interpretation (or both).

In the end it goes back to what parts we interpret as literal or figurative. It isn't always black and white. I would further argue that when Christ was disfigured to his apostles Moses and Elijah also appeared. I believe there might have been mention and connection to John the Baptist there if it were the case but perhaps it is only speculation on my part. Furthermore where you say "Christ also said: "Mat 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come." ... which indicated that He knew some would not be able to accept it..." Could that not also be interpreted as Jesus saying if it makes it easier for you to think that He was Elijah then go ahead and believe it, [it will not save you or keep you from being saved] (those are my added words). Like whether 6 days were 6 literal 24 hour days or millions of years It will not affect our salvation now will it? Could be both in reality because the bible says that God is not tied down by time he transcends it. A day to God can be a thousand years and a thousand years a day. How can we take that as literal or figurative.

You made a very good point and have plenty of statements to support it too. In the end I feel it is a matter of how it is interpreted you choose to interpret it one way while I look at it in another. I just wanted to make sure I got my point entirely across, and I hope I did not do it in any way that offends anyone if I did I do sincerely apologize!

God Bless everyone!

 

[Shiloah]

I believe that the scripture you posted references the end of the old testament Malachi where in order to associate the importance of the one who is coming, the one who is preparing the way for Jesus the prophet Malachi references Elijah not necessarily meaning that "Elijah" is coming back again but one similar to Elijah one that should be respected as Elijah. That is my understanding of it. Isaiah also references it in Isaiah 40 I am sure you are familiar with the verses; a voice crying out in the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord. My understanding is that John the Baptist was the one "like Elijah" that the prophecy describes. Interestingly enough, if taken literal one is waiting for Elijah to come back again! I hope this clears up your thoughts a little!

God Bless

This reasoning is the one I'd have to go with.

Luke 1:13-17

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, [SUP]15 [/SUP]for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. [SUP]16 [/SUP]He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

When Jesus said John was Elijah prophesied to come, I'd think He had to have meant what this verse implies, as in, John the Baptist had the same spirit and power. I think we often associate one specific person's consciousness with the word "spirit", when that's really not the same thing. I think John himself when asked if he was Elijah, said no.

John 1:21

[SUP]21 [/SUP]They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”

That's a pretty straight forward answer.

 

[TigerScent777]

This reasoning is the one I'd have to go with.

Luke 1:13-17

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, [SUP]15 [/SUP]for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. [SUP]16 [/SUP]He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

When Jesus said John was Elijah prophesied to come, I'd think He had to have meant what this verse implies, as in, John the Baptist had the same spirit and power. I think we often associate one specific person's consciousness with the word "spirit", when that's really not the same thing. I think John himself when asked if he was Elijah, said no.

John 1:21

[SUP]21 [/SUP]They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”

That's a pretty straight forward answer.

...but don't you believe Christ would actually know 'more' about John the Baptist, than he himself would? Just like He knows more about you and me, than we ourselves do??

 

[TigerScent777]

While I understand your argument and your reasoning behind it, I would have to say I disagree with all due respect. Your suggestion that when Jesus clearly says that John the Baptist was Elijah. There are many parts of scripture where God or Jesus clearly says something but it is supposed to be interpreted as a metaphor or other figures of speech. God says in Genesis, "eat from this tree and you will most certainly DIE", he clearly says DIE but not a physical death as the words would suggest but a metaphorical death, a death to Him which would and could clearly be the same as dying. Jesus says I am the way the truth and the light. Jesus isn't LIGHT itself but light used in the terms of guidance.

I also found another contradiction in your statement, where in John 1:21 when John the Baptist's disciples asked him are you Elijah he clearly says HE IS NOT ELIJAH. They asked, simply, Are you Elijah? John answered No, because the question seems to have been asked if John was Elijah in a literal sense -- i.e., they were asking if John was a re-appearance of Elijah, the Old Testament prophet last seen going up to heaven in a whirlwind and a chariot of fire. John the Baptist was not literally Elijah; he was physically born as a separate entity a different person. He does not even appear to portray the same personality traits as seen by Elijah in my opinion.

But if they had asked, Are you the symbolic or the "Elijah" that there were prophasies about? the answer would have been Yes. And that is the sense which Jesus uses to identify John as Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 looms large in the background here. John /did/ acknowledge that was a forerunner -- that someone much greater was coming after him. And this forerunner-role interlocks with Malachi 3:1a. I feel that while you have points to prove your thought process you were interpreting Malachi to mean that Elijah would literally return to prepare the way for the Messiah, rather than interpreting Malachi to mean that someone would arrive on the scene who would be reminiscent of Ellijah. And thats understandable, since technically the text of Malachi 3:1a and 4:5 is open to either a literal or a figurative interpretation (or both).

In the end it goes back to what parts we interpret as literal or figurative. It isn't always black and white. I would further argue that when Christ was disfigured to his apostles Moses and Elijah also appeared. I believe there might have been mention and connection to John the Baptist there if it were the case but perhaps it is only speculation on my part. Furthermore where you say "Christ also said: "Mat 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come." ... which indicated that He knew some would not be able to accept it..." Could that not also be interpreted as Jesus saying if it makes it easier for you to think that He was Elijah then go ahead and believe it, [it will not save you or keep you from being saved] (those are my added words). Like whether 6 days were 6 literal 24 hour days or millions of years It will not affect our salvation now will it? Could be both in reality because the bible says that God is not tied down by time he transcends it. A day to God can be a thousand years and a thousand years a day. How can we take that as literal or figurative.

You made a very good point and have plenty of statements to support it too. In the end I feel it is a matter of how it is interpreted you choose to interpret it one way while I look at it in another. I just wanted to make sure I got my point entirely across, and I hope I did not do it in any way that offends anyone if I did I do sincerely apologize!

God Bless everyone!

yeah, sure - no worries mate; we have the right to our own opinion - nothing wrong with that. Whether its right or wrong is another matter...

...as I said earlier, I believe in Christs Words over a mans, as John would not have known his previous identity being reborn - by all indications; as was revealed to Christ, being the Son of God...

...Adam and Eve DID die; both physically and spiritually - the worst form of death. They were meant to live forever -spirit, soul and body, but their body died and they experienced separation from God as well, which is worse and a spiritual death...

...I DO believe Christ is the Light via the Father, literally and figuratively - on every level and dimension...This also has been verified by those who have had death experiences and come back...

...but keep searching, even tho we don't entirely agree on some points, we can discuss and amiably agree to disagree...until such a time as convicted otherwise...

 

[Stuey]

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my mother's womb he has spoken my name.

Stuey, there is so much we don't know about what happens regarding our coming into this world. You admittedly don't know either, right? Knowing how precious life is to God, why would we want to risk being wrong either way about what happens when and take a chance on being guilty of destroying a life?

We know that not all babies survive the womb for whatever reason. While we don't know all of the reasons why, we can be comforted in knowing that it was nothing we did that caused the death of an unborn child. I couldn't handle that blood on my hands, could you?

Whoa thread derail.

Thanks Jullianna, I think I'm agreeing with you. Given how little we know there is no way we could risk it. The issue becomes more complicated when attempting to enforce this on non-Christians, (perhaps not for us), but how to convince others of when life begins when we have such a limited knowledge. I'm not sure how much weight a 'but you might be killing a baby' holds when a baby that can already survive outside the womb can be aborted. =/

Here is a bible passage that may provide a little insight.

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most Highwill overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
[h=3]Mary Visits Elizabeth[/h]39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”