Main difference between perseverance and preservation (1 Corinthians 1:8)

[LW97]

I have struggled with this for many, many, many, many months. But now the Holy Spirit told me something. I am going to back this up with scripture too. The Bible is clear that you cannot be a homosexual, adulterer or murderer and go to heaven. I believe that too. The Bible is clear that those who practice sin and have no conviction of the Holy Spirit were never saved. Biblical repentance is a change of mind and heart as well as a turning from sin to the Lord.

Yet, too often in the last months I have drifted into the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. This doctrine is missunderstood. It does not simply mean that a born again Christian will never perish. But also that if he falls back, he was never saved, which is actually the same thing as loss of salvation, just with a different emphasis. Of course, the Bible tells us those born of God will overcome (1 John 5:4). Yet, a Christian can be totally sure that he is saved now. Overall the TULIP gives less assurance than conditional security, because those who believe in conditional security believe you can know you have chosen God, so overall Arminianism indeed is way closer to the truth than Calvinism. Some Arminians believe in eternal security, some don't.

Yet, what does 1 John 2:19 talk about? Does it really mean that if a saint falls back into doubt and unbelief (2 Timothy 2:13), that would proof he was never saved? I believe a Christian has a free will to commit any sin, but if he does, God will chastise him and so a Christian does not practice sin like the unbelievers do.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I have struggled with this for many, many, many, many months. But now the Holy Spirit told me something. I am going to back this up with scripture too. The Bible is clear that you cannot be a homosexual, adulterer or murderer and go to heaven. I believe that too. The Bible is clear that those who practice sin and have no conviction of the Holy Spirit were never saved. Biblical repentance is a change of mind and heart as well as a turning from sin to the Lord.

Yet, too often in the last months I have drifted into the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. This doctrine is missunderstood. It does not simply mean that a born again Christian will never perish. But also that if he falls back, he was never saved, which is actually the same thing as loss of salvation, just with a different emphasis. Of course, the Bible tells us those born of God will overcome (1 John 5:4). Yet, a Christian can be totally sure that he is saved now. Overall the TULIP gives less assurance than conditional security, because those who believe in conditional security believe you can know you have chosen God, so overall Arminianism indeed is way closer to the truth than Calvinism. Some Arminians believe in eternal security, some don't.

Yet, what does 1 John 2:19 talk about? Does it really mean that if a saint falls back into doubt and unbelief (2 Timothy 2:13), that would proof he was never saved? I believe a Christian has a free will to commit any sin, but if he does, God will chastise him and so a Christian does not practice sin like the unbelievers do.

1 JOHN 2:19 -- Has reference to heresies in the church. these people are still children of God. Take in account, all the different denominations there are, all of them are preaching heresies except one.

 

[LW97]

1 JOHN 2:19 -- Has reference to heresies in the church. these people are still children of God. Take in account, all the different denominations there are, all of them are preaching heresies except one.

More scripture please?

 

[Hevosmies]

Good post I agree with you LW97. Calvinists have no assurance of salvation. You just can never know if you are truly elect, or if you are deceived into thinking you are, but will later fall away.

 

[Hevosmies]

Take in account, all the different denominations there are, all of them are preaching heresies except one.

May I ask what is this one exception that does NOT teach any heresy?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I have struggled with this for many, many, many, many months. But now the Holy Spirit told me something. I am going to back this up with scripture too. The Bible is clear that you cannot be a homosexual, adulterer or murderer and go to heaven. I believe that too. The Bible is clear that those who practice sin and have no conviction of the Holy Spirit were never saved. Biblical repentance is a change of mind and heart as well as a turning from sin to the Lord.

Yet, too often in the last months I have drifted into the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. This doctrine is missunderstood. It does not simply mean that a born again Christian will never perish. But also that if he falls back, he was never saved, which is actually the same thing as loss of salvation, just with a different emphasis. Of course, the Bible tells us those born of God will overcome (1 John 5:4). Yet, a Christian can be totally sure that he is saved now. Overall the TULIP gives less assurance than conditional security, because those who believe in conditional security believe you can know you have chosen God, so overall Arminianism indeed is way closer to the truth than Calvinism. Some Arminians believe in eternal security, some don't.

Yet, what does 1 John 2:19 talk about? Does it really mean that if a saint falls back into doubt and unbelief (2 Timothy 2:13), that would proof he was never saved? I believe a Christian has a free will to commit any sin, but if he does, God will chastise him and so a Christian does not practice sin like the unbelievers do.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (I John 2:19).

John was writing to a church, "my little children" (I John 2:1). In the first chapter he gives them the standard for judging those that would join themselves with their church . . . "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:5-8).

This is in reference to fellowship in the local church, and I John 2:19 is saying that if people leave then it is proof that they were never one of them from the beginning. In that locality there would have only been that one church - everything else, no doubt, would have been pagan assemblies.

Today we have churches, it seems like, on every corner - and true believers will not stay in a church where doctrinal error is embraced - so it makes the verse a little harder to apply. However, in most areas - folks are lucky to have even one fundamental, Bible-believing, doctrinally pure work of God. People often get angry with a firebrand preacher that proclaims 'thus saith the Lord' over the latest wind of doctrine . . . and leave.

Makes one wonder just what kind of relationship with Christ that person has . . . I think John gives us the answer.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I certainly agree that perseverance does not mean continuing salvation

it means persevere in Christ

this is not for the 'armchair Christian'

 

[7seasrekeyed]

1 JOHN 2:19 -- Has reference to heresies in the church. these people are still children of God. Take in account, all the different denominations there are, all of them are preaching heresies except one.

would that be the one you recognize by any chance?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

1 JOHN 2:19 -- Has reference to heresies in the church. these people are still children of God. Take in account, all the different denominations there are, all of them are preaching heresies except one.

Are you speaking of salvation by works versus salvation through grace . . . or a specific denomination?

 

[JohnRH]

I have struggled with this for many, many, many, many months. But now the Holy Spirit told me something. I am going to back this up with scripture too. The Bible is clear that you cannot be a homosexual, adulterer or murderer and go to heaven. I believe that too. The Bible is clear that those who practice sin and have no conviction of the Holy Spirit were never saved. Biblical repentance is a change of mind and heart as well as a turning from sin to the Lord.

Yet, too often in the last months I have drifted into the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. This doctrine is missunderstood. It does not simply mean that a born again Christian will never perish. But also that if he falls back, he was never saved, which is actually the same thing as loss of salvation, just with a different emphasis. Of course, the Bible tells us those born of God will overcome (1 John 5:4). Yet, a Christian can be totally sure that he is saved now. Overall the TULIP gives less assurance than conditional security, because those who believe in conditional security believe you can know you have chosen God, so overall Arminianism indeed is way closer to the truth than Calvinism. Some Arminians believe in eternal security, some don't.

Yet, what does 1 John 2:19 talk about? Does it really mean that if a saint falls back into doubt and unbelief (2 Timothy 2:13), that would proof he was never saved? I believe a Christian has a free will to commit any sin, but if he does, God will chastise him and so a Christian does not practice sin like the unbelievers do.

It could be that the "us" refers to John and his co-workers in the gospel. The antichrists went out from "us" and came to you teaching things that are contrary to what "ye have heard from the beginning" from us (vs. 24). He's warning his readers not to be seduced by them (vs. 26).

There seems to be a distinction among the pronouns in the context (KJV):
1st person "we", "us" = John & co-workers, apostlelic authority
2nd person "ye", "you" = Little children, the born again, eternally secure readers
3rd person "they, "them" = the antichrists

He's saying in effect, "We didn't send them. When they deny that Jesus is the Christ (vs. 22), they manifest that they were not of us."

That's my current understanding of the passage.

 

[JohnRH]

Yet, what does 1 John 2:19 talk about? Does it really mean that if a saint falls back into doubt and unbelief (2 Timothy 2:13), that would proof he was never saved? I believe a Christian has a free will to commit any sin, but if he does, God will chastise him and so a Christian does not practice sin like the unbelievers do.

If a "saint" was never saved then he was never a saint. But I don't think false professors are in view in 1 John. (see previous post)

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

I think this passage is also speaking strictly to true possessors: If we deny Him, He will deny us in our service (enduring/suffering) for the elect's sake. If we believe not (post-salvation, ongoing faithfulness in our Christian walk), He remains faith-worthy.

 

[mailmandan]

Psalms 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Perseverance is not without preservation.

 

[CherieR]

Good opening post. For myself, I don't think I am entirely Calvanist in my beliefs. I may not be completely Arminian either. I have liked listening to John Piper and James White. John Piper is a pastor and James White and apologist( he has lots of debates online and is a great debater)- Both of them I heard are Calvanist in their faith. I don't see a problem with people believing in perserverance of the saints. What I dislike is if a person was a Christian in the past and then stops believing, others say to him/her, " you must have never believed in the first place". I don't believe it is my place to say that to someone I don't know well. Even if when you know them, it is God who knows the heart completely, not us. If you ever read the parable of the sower Jesus told, it says plainly to me that there are those who believe for a time but when trials come, "fall" away.

What perserverance of the saints means to me is that those who love Jesus with all their heart and are committed to him, will continue to follow him and won't back down or renounce Christ in persecution. It means that God will strengthen his children, so that we don't have to depend on our strength in trouble, but rely on him.

Jesus blood and sacrifice on the cross is such a powerful way to save. It does not depend on us not sinning too much. One way I think about it is, why would Jesus die such a horrible death only for us to be afraid of losing salvation because of being imperfect and struggling with sin? Jesus paid the price with his blood. It is not about us at all. Jesus did give us the commandments to love God with all of our being and to love your neighbor as yourself. People who are born of God both love the Lord and others, but our love will not be perfected until we are in glory.