Mystery of the Movements of the "Spirit"

[Enow]

For those that may hear:

This is only a partial list of what has been labled as movements of the "Spirit":

#1) "holy laughter" movement : a phenomenon where believers are visited by the "Spirit" to induce uncontrollable laughter in service.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#2) "Slain in the Spirit" movement: an experience where believers fall down against their will when visited by the "Spirit".

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

#3) "Toronto Blessings" movement: a glamourized sensations in the flesh of signs & wonders when visited by the "Spirit" at Toronto, Canada.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

#4) "The Pensacola Outpouring" movement: a publicised movement of signs & wonders that occurs by the visit of the "Spirit" at Pensacola, Florida.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

#5) New believers that are already believers, seeking to receive the Holy Spirit, if not supposedly for the first time, then "again" after a sign of tongues that comes with no interpretation.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report....6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

#6) Feeling the "Spirit" in the worship place.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world....4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

In all of these movements, they place the focus on the Holy Spirit and call on Him to come and fall on them to receive after a sign which can occur again & again & again. In most of these movements, believers are falling down.

Acts 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it....

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

By His grace & by His help, the line of discernments & reproofs has been given: The Son of God is the Bridegroom which is why all invitations points to Him in coming to God the Father in worship or in relating to Him. It is by way of the Son because He is why He is called the Bridegroom, as we are to be the bride in relating to the Father by.

Few fallen believers will testify of experiencing the phenomenon when soley honouring the Holy Spirit in worship which brings to point the mystery of why God would allow these events to occur. Scriptures dictates that it is a work of iniquity & outside the will of God in how we are to approach Him. The only way to honour God is stated below.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So what happens to wayward believers that seek after a sign?

Matthew 16:4A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

How can wayward believers repent?

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

1 Chronicles 16:11Seek the Lord and his strength, seek his face continually.

2 Chronicles 7:14If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1 Thessalonians 3:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The real indwelling Holy Spirit will always keep the spotlight on the Son in worship to lead us to glorify the Son and by the Son, God the Father as well.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Philippians 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Seducing spirits are the ones that would seek to steal that spotlight from the Son in worship by their visitations of signs & lying wonders.

1 Timothy 4:Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

The Son of God is the Good Shepherd. Follow His voice & not a stranger's voice.

May the Lord Jesus Christ, our Bridegroom, help you to return to your first love and enable you to continue to be chaste with God the Father through the Son before He comes which is what the real indwelling Holy Spirit is leading us to do by Him.

 

[MarkayMrk777]

Corinthians 14

New International Version (NIV)
Intelligibility in Worship

14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

 

[homwardbound]

I hear, thanks and the only thing I ever thought about with those that do the SLAIN in the Spirit thing was and is does not slain mean death? Did not Christ come to give life in the Spirit, so can slain (death) in the Spirit be of God. I understand God came to give life in the Spirit and death to one's flesh still being a free choice whether you want flesh life or Spirit life, we can't have both, it is one or the other.
Evil has come to steal kill and destroy,but Jesus came to give us life in the Spirit of God the Son, God the Holy Ghost and God the Father, all actually being one. I remember also the warning of the devil comes as an angel of light to foolthe very elect. Thank you for your post
Homwardbound

 

[kenisyes]

I agree with you on 1-4. Your Scriptures do not disprove 6. In fact they prove that once a spirit is tested, if it proves to be the HS, there is nothing wrong with admitting to His presence. #5 is tricky, because historically it originated as a prayer for allowing the HS to work in an individual. In the old days (you should remember this, too), many churches had little or no teaching about the HS. It was found advantageous to have a special prayer once people had been taught about Him, in the early prayer groups. Back then, no one ever suggested that the HS was not present from the moment of Baptism.

Seeking signs is bad. Denying what signs God is doing, once you prove He is doing it, is also bad.

 

[Enow]

I agree with you on 1-4. Your Scriptures do not disprove 6. In fact they prove that once a spirit is tested, if it proves to be the HS, there is nothing wrong with admitting to His presence. #5 is tricky, because historically it originated as a prayer for allowing the HS to work in an individual. In the old days (you should remember this, too), many churches had little or no teaching about the HS. It was found advantageous to have a special prayer once people had been taught about Him, in the early prayer groups. Back then, no one ever suggested that the HS was not present from the moment of Baptism.

Seeking signs is bad. Denying what signs God is doing, once you prove He is doing it, is also bad.

Let's take what you have agreed about as not being of the Holy Spirit and address the ruidment.

In comparing #5 & #6 with the first four that you had claimed was not of Him, how is it that this can be when scripture has to refute 5 & 6 also?

Luke 11:[SUP]9 [/SUP]And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. [SUP]11 [/SUP]If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? [SUP]12 [/SUP]Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? [SUP]13 [/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

In all of those movements, do they not all ask the Holy Spirit? How then can #1-#4 happen? Would that not testify against the promises of God as stated below?

2 Corinthians 1:[SUP]18 [/SUP]But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [SUP]22 [/SUP]Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

So then asking the Holy Spirit is outside of the will of God. In keeping with the message in Luke 11:9-13, the Holy Spirit cannot give Himself: the Father does by way of the Son for knocking at the door of Jesus so believers are asking amiss.

The other truth of Luke 11:9-13 is that a believer cannot receive the Holy Spirit again for that would be liken to the Father not giving you the Holy Spirit the first time.

So no matter how you look at it, no matter what signs there be that you believe it was of God, if you denounce the first four when they address the Holy Spirit and sought to receive the Spirit after a sign, and yet defend somewhat #5 & misunderstood 1 Corinthians 14th chapter for you to be defending #6, then you are voiding the truth & promises in the messages of both of those scriptural references in this post as well as the reproofs in the OP.

It is a conundrum that only Jesus as your Good Sheoherd can help you prove that none of those six are of Him.

1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Brethren, pray for us.

The only asnwer is to return to that straight gate in how we approach God the Father by way of the Son.

John 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

1 Timothy 2:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[kenisyes]

No one else is posting, so I won't requote the whole thing. People ask Jesus into their lives all the time, and continue sinning. Many do so because they don't listen to Jesus. It is not surprising that people who have the Holy Spirit stop listening to Him as well, and turn elsewhere for counterfeit signs. I have watched the movements form, and I know they are the exception of expectation rather than the rule, just like backsliders are the exceptional outcome of the saved.

I stated that the term "asking for the Spirit" was an abuse of the Scripture term (as is the word we say Sunday "church"), as it only asks for release of what they have, i.e., an adjustment of their minds to accept what God has already given them, and they were unaware of.

As far as "feeling" the Spirit, you are right, wanting to feel something that is not of the Spirit is not good. If it is of the spirit, then why is it wrong? Let God bless your emotions as well.

 

[Enow]

As far as "feeling" the Spirit, you are right, wanting to feel something that is not of the Spirit is not good. If it is of the spirit, then why is it wrong? Let God bless your emotions as well.

I do not believe you are on the same page of agreement as me when you still permit good feelings to be an indicative factor of whethor or not it is of the Spirit or not. What part of not believing every spirit were we warned about other than seducing spirits in taking our eyes off of the Son in worship to them?

 

[kenisyes]

I do not believe you are on the same page of agreement as me when you still permit good feelings to be an indicative factor of whethor or not it is of the Spirit or not. What part of not believing every spirit were we warned about other than seducing spirits in taking our eyes off of the Son in worship to them?

I do not permit feelings to indicate the Spirit. Nor do I know of anyone who does. I have seen people try; they do not last long in ministry.

I believe that if the Spirit is properly discerned to be the Holy Spirit, we should not refuse feelings if that is what God wishes to give us.

 

[Enow]

I do not permit feelings to indicate the Spirit. Nor do I know of anyone who does. I have seen people try; they do not last long in ministry.

How about Todd Bentley then?

The Reality of the Holy Spirit

I believe that if the Spirit is properly discerned to be the Holy Spirit, we should not refuse feelings if that is what God wishes to give us.

What do you say now about emotions after reading that testimony by Todd Bentley?

The problem here, brother, is that people in khundalini, an eastern mysticism, will perform yoga trance like meditation and receive a supernatural encounter of peace, love, and other pleasant feelings to more sensational ones exhibiting power, electricity, fire, and other sensations in the flesh. No matter how you look at it, that is seeking to receive after a sign.

How can sinners in khundalini depart from their practises of these supernatural feel good experiences if they seek the same in christianity from the "Spirit"? How can good feelings ever be a guide to discern from seducing spirits? They cannot.

So as you had denounced the "holy laughter" movement, do know that they were rationalizing it as "being drunk in the Spirit" and that they were receiving the fruit of joy, but scripture dictate that drunkenness is a work of the flesh and hardly abstaining from all appearances of evil for believers to be acting drunk. Plus another fruit of the Spirit is temperance which is self control, and for the fruit of joy to be drunkenness, then that house is divided and will fall because they did not seek the face of the Son continuously.

Jesus is the vine. By not abiding in Him, they are falling.

Proverbs 25:[SUP]26 [/SUP]A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.[SUP]27 [/SUP]It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. [SUP]28[/SUP]He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

John 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Why mention the voice of strangers other than to speak of supernatural tongues that comes with no interpretation? Do they not claim getting that supernatural tongue directly from the "Spirit Himself", and not the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ?

And not these other signs in the flesh that you had denounced in these moveent of the "Spirit" also sought from the "Spirit Himself" of which many are falling after?

Matthew 7:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

If you give an inch in one area, then you are giving a mile to that which you denounce which is why believers are exhorted to continuously seek the face of the Son, the risen Saviour, the soon to be appearing Bridegroom to avoid false spirits & their signs.

 

[Abiding]

yikes he said the b-word

 

[kenisyes]

How about Todd Bentley then?

Never heard of him until you mentioned him. I meant of the people I have associated with, I know of no one. I have heard of the Lakeland Revival (I googled him), and do not think it is anything to recommend.

What do you say now about emotions after reading that testimony by Todd Bentley?

i stick by what I said. 700 prophets of Baal do not invalidate one Elijah.

The problem here, brother, is that people in khundalini, an eastern mysticism, will perform yoga trance like meditation and receive a supernatural encounter of peace, love, and other pleasant feelings to more sensational ones exhibiting power, electricity, fire, and other sensations in the flesh. No matter how you look at it, that is seeking to receive after a sign.

How can sinners in khundalini depart from their practises of these supernatural feel good experiences if they seek the same in christianity from the "Spirit"? How can good feelings ever be a guide to discern from seducing spirits? They cannot.

And Moslems believe that Mohammed has correct rules from Allah that will get them ot paradise if they follow. How can we expect them to give up these rules for the rules of Christianity, when it is taught as rules. It's the same argument. People need to understand the difference between spiritual gifts and soul power, just like they need to understand the difference between law and grace.

So as you had denounced the "holy laughter" movement, do know that they were rationalizing it as "being drunk in the Spirit" and that they were receiving the fruit of joy, but scripture dictate that drunkenness is a work of the flesh and hardly abstaining from all appearances of evil for believers to be acting drunk. Plus another fruit of the Spirit is temperance which is self control, and for the fruit of joy to be drunkenness, then that house is divided and will fall because they did not seek the face of the Son continuously.

There are several Scriptures about being so joyful, people would think they were drunk. That's what this phrase should refer to, if used correctly. That is how I learned it. Before these modern videos people are posting, I never saw anyone get like these people.

Jesus is the vine. By not abiding in Him, they are falling.

Proverbs 25:[SUP]26 [/SUP]A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.[SUP]27 [/SUP]It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. [SUP]28[/SUP]He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

John 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Why mention the voice of strangers other than to speak of supernatural tongues that comes with no interpretation? Do they not claim getting that supernatural tongue directly from the "Spirit Himself", and not the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ?

Paul talks about false apostles and false prophets. That's who I think Jesus means here. They are all talking human language.
And not these other signs in the flesh that you had denounced in these moveent of the "Spirit" also sought from the "Spirit Himself" of which many are falling after?

Matthew 7:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

If you give an inch in one area, then you are giving a mile to that which you denounce which is why believers are exhorted to continuously seek the face of the Son, the risen Saviour, the soon to be appearing Bridegroom to avoid false spirits & their signs.

I agree with avoiding false spirits. I just do not agree that any spirit that leads to praying in tongues is false.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Unless the sinners are being convicted of sin, falling on thier face in real repentance and brokeness, then the spirit is void, you can list many functions of the spirit in the true followers life, but initially unless the lost are repenting that can only come from a strong crisis of conviction, leading to the stopping of sin, then the spirit again is void.

God has nothing for the double minded who thinks they are filled with the spirit while they are still defiled in thier heart!

The spirit of truth!​

​

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does notreceive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him;neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged byno one.​

​

Who are the spiritualones? Who does God lead into all truth? And apart from the spirit of truthindwelling you can’t begin to unravel the mess Christianity is in today!
I have come tounderstand, just how important it is to understand this, when you arecontending earnestly for the faith, as many will claim they have the truth,then defend against one or many false teachings such as original sin, penalsubstitution, and when God commands the sin must stop, they are made into grayareas that scripture clearly defines as doctrines of demons, leading the massesaway from truth.
I believe scripturegives us several commands we must adhere to, to be able to begin to unravel themany layers of errors, and get back on track with Jesus when He said "myword is truth", "I am the truth" and the "truth shall setyou free".
Sound doctrineproduces a sound and holy convert, where truth comes after they repent, bylaying aside all wickedness and filthiness, and then receive with meekness andhumility the implanted word of God, which is truth that can save, and thenbecome a doer of the word and not a hearer only deceiving themselves!
Jas 1:21 Thereforeputting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness theimplanted Word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves.
I believe those wholike to mix truth with error, and I mean the host of reformed errors, that arethe mainstay today that are leading to more doctrinal errors that make thesimple truth Jesus and His followers proclaimed void, and confusing.
If you continue toinsist in teaching a false gospel, or mix clear hearsay into the pure word ofGod, by ignoring the spirit of truth, then I believe God will give you over tothe spirit of error, and send a strong delusion which will seal you in the lieor lies you hold dear to.
You cannot have itboth ways, and I am not saying God expects us to know it all, far from it, butHe is saying and commands we walk in the spirit of truth, and we will not beled into grave errors the reformers and Augustine handed down to us today,making the simple message Jesus proclaimed lost in a sea of conjecture,rhetoric, and fables constructed by mere men void of the spirit of truth, andmore than likely indwelled with the spirit of error!
Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He willguide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever Hehears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.
Tommy

 

[Enow]

How about Todd Bentley then?

Never heard of him until you mentioned him. I meant of the people I have associated with, I know of no one. I have heard of the Lakeland Revival (I googled him), and do not think it is anything to recommend.

Okay. Well. he is popular in the media and so you may be surprised how much of his teachings and those of Lakeland Revival's can get around.

Ask the people in your congregation if they have heard of him and if they see any difference between him & your church's testimonies of which you would disassociate yourself from by explaining why you would not recommend him.

No harm in asking, right?

Feel free to post why you would not recommend him just for the readers' sake to show how you are not associated with him at all. If it is not a simple answer, then feel free to start another thread since I can see how it can be a major topic.

What do you say now about emotions after reading that testimony by Todd Bentley?

i stick by what I said. 700 prophets of Baal do not invalidate one Elijah.

Elijah did not speak in tongues that was babbling nonsense. You will need another analogy to compare that as a differentiating factor, because it is not there.

This site claims she did the research that worshippers of Baal spoke in tongues, but the reference from the Bible that she had used was not defining, but references from practises that derived from the supposed practises of Baal were defining it as originating from Baal, but I find it as unconclusive or at the very least, failing to provide secular references as such.

Spiritual - THE PHENOMENON OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES Ecstatic tongues Ecstatic tongues (practised in the pagan world) - Page 1 - Wattpad

It may be an oversight or it may be the author stating her opinion into the references without actually linking the references as proving as such. It does warrant research if God is willing to provide its link.

At any rate, I am trying to say that linking Elijah as an analogy for proving tongues without interpretation is not just. You will not find Elijah speaking in tongues as supposedly this unsubstantiated report translated from Romanian seems to testify.

The problem here, brother, is that people in khundalini, an eastern mysticism, will perform yoga trance like meditation and receive a supernatural encounter of peace, love, and other pleasant feelings to more sensational ones exhibiting power, electricity, fire, and other sensations in the flesh. No matter how you look at it, that is seeking to receive after a sign.

How can sinners in khundalini depart from their practises of these supernatural feel good experiences if they seek the same in christianity from the "Spirit"? How can good feelings ever be a guide to discern from seducing spirits? They cannot.

And Moslems believe that Mohammed has correct rules from Allah that will get them ot paradise if they follow. How can we expect them to give up these rules for the rules of Christianity, when it is taught as rules. It's the same argument. People need to understand the difference between spiritual gifts and soul power, just like they need to understand the difference between law and grace.

Wrong analogy again. We do not follow rules to get into Heaven.

So as you had denounced the "holy laughter" movement, do know that they were rationalizing it as "being drunk in the Spirit" and that they were receiving the fruit of joy, but scripture dictate that drunkenness is a work of the flesh and hardly abstaining from all appearances of evil for believers to be acting drunk. Plus another fruit of the Spirit is temperance which is self control, and for the fruit of joy to be drunkenness, then that house is divided and will fall because they did not seek the face of the Son continuously.

There are several Scriptures about being so joyful, people would think they were drunk. That's what this phrase should refer to, if used correctly. That is how I learned it. Before these modern videos people are posting, I never saw anyone get like these people.

No, brother. The mockers at Pentecost were referring to the native Jews speaking in foreign languages wherein the visiting Jews from all nations under the earth were hearing it in their native tongues the wonderful works of God, but others saw that as being drunk, babbling. They were not falling down or acting drunk at all. Be kind of hard to hear Peter if there was no self control for him to stand up and preach unto the people.

Jesus is the vine. By not abiding in Him, they are falling.

Proverbs 25:[SUP]26 [/SUP]A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.[SUP]27 [/SUP]It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. [SUP]28[/SUP]He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

John 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Why mention the voice of strangers other than to speak of supernatural tongues that comes with no interpretation? Do they not claim getting that supernatural tongue directly from the "Spirit Himself", and not the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ?

Paul talks about false apostles and false prophets. That's who I think Jesus means here. They are all talking human language.

Not quite. Discern with His help below whethor or not it was human language that is the result for climbing up another way. You have His sheep, and then you have sheep that He must bring and so they have to be His if He must bring them.

John 10:[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 prophesy that some will depart from faith & give heed to seducing spirits... thus they were of faith but have departed. Since Jesus will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39) then as you correctly ascertained that this is in regards to false prophets, but yet you have yet to discern that the result for climbing up another way is the stranger's voice.

Matthew 7:13-17 testify that the broadening of the way will bring about a fruit of a false prophet as it will be gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles, thus ecumenical in nature. Tongues without interpretation is such a fruit as it can be found in world's religions, occults, & cults in christianity.
And not these other signs in the flesh that you had denounced in these moveent of the "Spirit" also sought from the "Spirit Himself" of which many are falling after?

Matthew 7:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

If you give an inch in one area, then you are giving a mile to that which you denounce which is why believers are exhorted to continuously seek the face of the Son, the risen Saviour, the soon to be appearing Bridegroom to avoid false spirits & their signs.

I agree with avoiding false spirits. I just do not agree that any spirit that leads to praying in tongues is false.

Scriptures testifies that the only thing that will come inbetween us and Jesus is a thief. John 10:7-9. And it is a thief because it is stealing that personal prayer time with the Lord in knowing what we had prayed for so that when the Son answers these prayers, God the Father will be glorified in Him by Whom we shall give thanks in His name: John 14:13-14

 

[Enow]

I am not saying God expects us to know it all, far from it, but ....

Sounds like you are saying that plain as day below.

Unless the sinners are being convicted of sin, falling on thier face in real repentance and brokeness, then the spirit is void, you can list many functions of the spirit in the true followers life, but initially unless the lost are repenting that can only come from a strong crisis of conviction, leading to the stopping of sin, then the spirit again is void.

God has nothing for the double minded who thinks they are filled with the spirit while they are still defiled in thier heart!

That is why the gospel is simple so that all those that had believed in Him are saved at that moment they had believed in Him. That is the only way christians can avoid being false witnesses when they testify that Jesus Christ is the Saviour because He has saved them.

May God help you to understand that believers are called to be His disciples to bear fruit and that their joy may be full so that they will not lose any of their full rewards, but salvation is not at stake because Jesus is the Saviour for He has saved us.

1 Corinthians 1:[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. KJV

John 3:[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. KJV

It is because we are saved that we should lean on the Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him by faith in Him, because we had been bought with a price & sealed as His and so we do have to answer to Him.

Hebrews 12:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. [SUP]14[/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[kenisyes]

Let's start with something general. The soul is capable of all kinds of rarely seen phenomenon. This has been verified scientifically. Some of these phenomena are called "reasoning" and we are very familiar with those. Others are such things as miracles, tongues, kundalini, teleportation,e tc. The difference between the occult and Christianity is in the choice the soul makes. Our bodies are born into the Kingdom of the world. Our spirit are in touch with God. The soul makes one of two choices, both generally, as a lifestyle, and daily on specific choices. If the soul follows the spirit, it will turn to Jesus once it knows who He is, and gradually the daily wrong choices get corrected. If the soul follows the body, it will live by sin. For a baseline, we use something that is common: This is the difference between sinful philosophy and Christian theology: the sinful philosophy tries to convince the spirit to follow the flesh. Christian theology explains the experience of getting the body to follow the spirit as it informed by the Holy Spirit. Now the unfamiliar: With the soul powers, if the spirit motivates them, they become the gifts. If the body motivates them, they become the occult. There is a third, or middle ground, those who for a time try to avoid following either. I have known people like this, and within a few years, they always make a choice from the other two.

Your "discovery" of false tongues is simply a discovery that wolves in sheep's clothing have attempted to infiltrate the sheepfold. Some such people advance false theologies, others advance false gifts. They are simply using different abilities of their souls to do the job. But, in both cases, they follow thier bodily desires for power, or wealth, etc., and use terminology originally reserved by Christians for other puposes.

Feel free to post why you would not recommend him just for the readers' sake to show how you are not associated with him at all. If it is not a simple answer, then feel free to start another thread since I can see how it can be a major topic.
My instinctive first reaction is that many people I have known who pursued the Lakeland Revival spend their time trying to duplicate it, instead of living the life God gave them. Bad fruit. That's the first test we should always use.
From the wikipedia article, I'll make a few quotes.

1. He traveled to India, Africa, and South America taking part in religious crusades and revivals. Nothing wrong with that in itself.
2. The revival quickly became a religious and media phenomenon, attracting up to 10,000 attendees nightly with Bentley as the primary preacher. Now I'm getting worried. If He's preaching the Gospel, he doesn't even need to count. If he must count, count salvations, not attendees. Better yet, wait a year or two and see how many salvations were real.
3. Todd Bentley was known to forcefully kick, hit, smack or knock over participants. In one incident, a man was knocked over and lost a tooth. My wife and I watched a good evangelist go bad, starting with this. God is perfectly capable of getting people to get down on their knees without this. Already we see Bentley is serving his own desire for results.
4. The lack of medical corroboration of the healings was questioned by mainstream media; the Nightline report concluded that "not a single miracle could be verified." What I have witnessed, nobody even thought to investigate. Most healings, like most tongues, are done in private, and build faith, not media ratings. In the few cases (less than 5%) that I have seen investigated, real miracles were documented. I know of some recorded on tape as they happened, and my wife helped a woman write one up in a local paper. Her medical file records "unexplained remission of incurable condition". (Devolping blindness)
5. A statement released by the remaining Board members said "Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff", and that he would 'refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life'. This is what happened to the guy in #3. More bad fruit. Most of the people I know are still married to their first spouse.
6. He emphasizes that spiritual or supernatural encounters in an individual's life are gifts from the Holy Spirit. Is this why you claim they never are? Because he claims they all are? My initial statement above clarifies this.
7. if we don't have signs then all we have is a bunch of theology. I actually agree with this. The lack of signs for 1400 years is why most of the world (and much of Christianity) is still pagan.
8. He has also preached about an encounter with an angel he called 'Emma' that's witchcraft in the name of God. That was no angel, well, fallen maybe.
9. Bentley has sponsored an internship program called 'Joel's Army'. Joel doesn't have an army, Gideon, Joshua, Jesus' white robed army, maybe.
10. Bentley's physical appearance has been noted for being very unconventional for that of an evangelist So what?

is that good enough?

Originally Posted by kenisyes

i stick by what I said. 700 prophets of Baal do not invalidate one Elijah.





Elijah did not speak in tongues that was babbling nonsense. You will need another analogy to compare that as a differentiating factor, because it is not there.

You misunderstand. There were 700 false prophets being followed by almost every body, and one true prophet. Just like you have seen hundreds of wolves in sheep's clothing, but there still are people doing it right, who you do not see. It has nothing to do with tongues specifically, only with media exposure.


The problem here, brother, is that people in khundalini, an eastern mysticism, will perform yoga trance like meditation and receive a supernatural encounter of peace, love, and other pleasant feelings to more sensational ones exhibiting power, electricity, fire, and other sensations in the flesh. No matter how you look at it, that is seeking to receive after a sign.

I doubt very much that the peace and love is anything like what Jesus gives.

How can sinners in khundalini depart from their practises of these supernatural feel good experiences if they seek the same in christianity from the "Spirit"? How can good feelings ever be a guide to discern from seducing spirits? They cannot.

By determining that it is not the feeling that is relevant. That's why I'm opposed to preaching that the feeling is relevant. Feeling is the body's experience, and by my initial statement, it needs to come last, not first.
And Moslems believe that Mohammed has correct rules from Allah that will get them ot paradise if they follow. How can we expect them to give up these rules for the rules of Christianity, when it is taught as rules. It's the same argument. People need to understand the difference between spiritual gifts and soul power, just like they need to understand the difference between law and grace.






Wrong analogy again. We do not follow rules to get into Heaven.


Some Christians preach that we do follow laws, and those are the poeple I am referring to. If a Moslem is evangelized by such a church, he is in the same situation as a kundalini person being evangelized by Todd Bentley. If you wish to oppose the one, you must oppose the other. It appears you do. So I cannot understand why you have the question. Again, it suggests you have been personally hurt by some of this.


There are several Scriptures about being so joyful, people would think they were drunk. That's what this phrase should refer to, if used correctly. That is how I learned it. Before these modern videos people are posting, I never saw anyone get like these people.



No, brother. The mockers at Pentecost were referring to the native Jews speaking in foreign languages wherein the visiting Jews from all nations under the earth were hearing it in their native tongues the wonderful works of God, but others saw that as being drunk, babbling. They were not falling down or acting drunk at all. Be kind of hard to hear Peter if there was no self control for him to stand up and preach unto the people.

That was not what I meant. I meant OT references, such as "they will make merry as men drinking wine at the harvest" and related sentiments.



Why mention the voice of strangers other than to speak of supernatural tongues that comes with no interpretation? Do they not claim getting that supernatural tongue directly from the "Spirit Himself", and not the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ?

Paul talks about false apostles and false prophets. That's who I think Jesus means here. They are all talking human language.




Not quite. Discern with His help below whethor or not it was human language that is the result for climbing up another way. You have His sheep, and then you have sheep that He must bring and so they have to be His if He must bring them.

Oh, come on. Look at the arguments right in these threads that certain denominations are wrong and misleading people, by their theology expressed in English. Nothing about any of these verses implies tongues.

And not these other signs in the flesh that you had denounced in these moveent of the "Spirit" also sought from the "Spirit Himself" of which many are falling after?

I do not approve of the seeking. My objection to your whole approach is that you do not approve of accepting.


If you give an inch in one area, then you are giving a mile to that which you denounce which is why believers are exhorted to continuously seek the face of the Son, the risen Saviour, the soon to be appearing Bridegroom to avoid false spirits & their signs.

I agree with avoiding false spirits. I just do not agree that any spirit that leads to praying in tongues is false.



Scriptures testifies that the only thing that will come inbetween us and Jesus is a thief. John 10:7-9. And it is a thief because it is stealing that personal prayer time with the Lord in knowing what we had prayed for so that when the Son answers these prayers, God the Father will be glorified in Him by Whom we shall give thanks in His name: John 14:13-14

The word "only" is not in the passage you quote. This is my single objection to your posts, is you keep throwing an "all" or an "only" where Scripture and experience verifies only "some". And most people I know who pray in tongues, add so more prayer time because of it. It works the opposite of what you say

 

[Enow]

Let's start with something general.....

The soul makes one of two choices, both generally, as a lifestyle, and daily on specific choices. .... For a baseline, we use something that is common: This is the difference between sinful philosophy and Christian theology: the sinful philosophy tries to convince the spirit to follow the flesh.

Seeking sensations in the flesh is the same thing.

Christian theology explains the experience of getting the body to follow the spirit as it informed by the Holy Spirit.

If by seeking sensation in the flesh when seeking after this spirit, then it is no different than living by the flesh.

Now the unfamiliar: With the soul powers, if the spirit motivates them, they become the gifts. If the body motivates them, they become the occult.

And that is exactly what I am saying. When led by the Spirit, it will not manifest sensations of the flesh in the flesh for us to be following.

Even back at the first revival in England where people converted from being drunk with alcohol, when the phenomenon was over with, the majority went back to theior former sinful lifestyle.

You do not convert by exchanging one high for another.

There is a third, or middle ground, those who for a time try to avoid following either. I have known people like this, and within a few years, they always make a choice from the other two.

Probably I go into that category because the Holy Spirit in us wants us to follow the Son by continuing in His words, not after the "Spirit" for signs in the flesh.

Your "discovery" of false tongues is simply a discovery that wolves in sheep's clothing have attempted to infiltrate the sheepfold. Some such people advance false theologies, others advance false gifts. They are simply using different abilities of their souls to do the job. But, in both cases, they follow thier bodily desires for power, or wealth, etc., and use terminology originally reserved by Christians for other puposes.

The role of the Holy Spirit is to not speak of Himself, ( John 16:13) but to testify of the Son ( John 15:26) to seek His glory ( John 16:14) as those led by the Spirit will be doing the same thing ( John 15:27 & John 3:28-30) That is the mind of Christ we are to have ( Philippians 2:5-11) in fellowship ( 1 Corinthians 2:2) and in songs ( Colossians 3:16-17).

The Holy Spirit will not lead believers to speak of Himself in seeking the glory of the Holy Spirit with its signs and wonders with His presence. That is the difference between a seducing spirit which is the spirit of the antichrist that is in the world and the real indwelling Holy Spirit that will keep the spotlight on the Son in the worship place.

 

[Enow]

My instinctive first reaction is that many people I have known who pursued the Lakeland Revival spend their time trying to duplicate it, instead of living the life God gave them. Bad fruit. That's the first test we should always use.

From the wikipedia article, I'll make a few quotes.

6. He emphasizes that spiritual or supernatural encounters in an individual's life are gifts from the Holy Spirit. Is this why you claim they never are? Because he claims they all are? My initial statement above clarifies this.

Then you are going to have to clarify some more because the first four movements you had denounced in the OP were all invoked by addressing the Holy Spirit, seeking the presence of the Holy Spirit in the worship place and thus with the spotlight on the Holy Spirit, these wayward believers thinks that God would not permit false spirits to steal the "spotlight" from the Holy Spirit, but yet again, the real indwelling Holy Spirit would never lead believers to place the Spirit in the spotlight, but keep the spotlight on the Son in worship because by honouring & glorifying the Son, they are honouring & glorifying the Father.

So it's like... they are doing what you are doing except that you are not looking for signs they seek like that to occur.

7. if we don't have signs then all we have is a bunch of theology. I actually agree with this. The lack of signs for 1400 years is why most of the world (and much of Christianity) is still pagan.

How can that not be translated as believers seeking after signs? How can you really correct the wayward saints in those first four false movements if they are doing the same thing you are doing but seeking different results & signs?

How can you or any believer avoid this warning?

Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 24:[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

1 John 3:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

is that good enough?

Well, brother. As you can see, no.. you still need some more explaining to do. I still see you as opposing yourself because I fail to see how you can correct those believers in those first four movements of the "Spirit" that you have denounced.

If anything, they will more than likely convince you to believe it is of God rather than the other way around.

 

[kenisyes]

I clarify (and correct) everything with the distinction between seeking and accepting. My sole point of disagreement with you, is that I hear you to say that anytime a spiritual manifestation occurs, it occurs because people have sought it, or because the devil is doing it to try to get people to seek after it. That is simply not true. God does spiritual manifestations as well. Yes, we need discernment, and yes we need to avoid seeking the manifestation. But the thing that God is doing, we need to accept. People can be taught the difference. The distinction between law and grace is no easier to teach, and we seem to get that pretty well.

There is nothing wrong with praying for the Holy Spirit to work. We cannot say "thy Kingdom come" to the Father without accepting everything He wants to have happen on earth. It is no more wrong to say that the Holy Spirit is present than it is to quote "wherever two or three are gathered". It is a simple fact, God (all three persons) are with us. The Holy Spirit did do some pretty great things back in the NT days. Jesus speaks as if "whatever we ask in faith, I will do" is for all times. If any of them wants to do it again, we have to let Him, or run the risk of cutting ourselves off from His plan. The only difference in our positions, is that I don't close the door to what God might do tomorrow, or 10 seconds from now, because of the counterfeits that are out there. Putting the spotlight on the Holy Spirit is just to give Him His 1/3 right to our attention as God, after so many churches have neglected Him for so long. The people I learned from have always corrected the evils as they show up, among any who would listen, and seen many fall by the wayside. But we need to keep a balance.

 

[Enow]

I clarify (and correct) everything with the distinction between seeking and accepting. My sole point of disagreement with you, is that I hear you to say that anytime a spiritual manifestation occurs, it occurs because people have sought it, or because the devil is doing it to try to get people to seek after it. That is simply not true. God does spiritual manifestations as well. Yes, we need discernment, and yes we need to avoid seeking the manifestation. But the thing that God is doing, we need to accept. People can be taught the difference. The distinction between law and grace is no easier to teach, and we seem to get that pretty well.

The line of discernment here is that God would not mimick any supernatural manifestations being done by the devil first to be copying the devil after Jesus Christ had ascended.

There is nothing wrong with praying for the Holy Spirit to work.

Jesus Christ is the One working through the Holy Spirit: The Son is the author & finisher of our faith.

Philippians 1:[SUP]6[/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.....[SUP]9 [/SUP]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; [SUP]10 [/SUP]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

When it is written that the Holy Spirit speaketh, it is with the understanding that the Holy Spirit speaks what He hears and thus why Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd as everything that is the Father's is now His.

John 16: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

We cannot say "thy Kingdom come" to the Father without accepting everything He wants to have happen on earth. It is no more wrong to say that the Holy Spirit is present than it is to quote "wherever two or three are gathered".

The problem here is not rightly dividing the word of truth when Jesus was referring to Matthew 18:20, Jesus was giving a promise in regards to His future role as our only Mediator in our prayers to God.

Whenever Jesus testify of the Holy Spirit, He has said "he" or "him" in deferentiating the Spirit from Himself, and so when Jesus said "I", He was referring to Himself when making that promise in Matthew 18:20 which was in reference to prayer.

Matthew 18:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

It is a simple fact, God (all three persons) are with us. The Holy Spirit did do some pretty great things back in the NT days. Jesus speaks as if "whatever we ask in faith, I will do" is for all times. If any of them wants to do it again, we have to let Him, or run the risk of cutting ourselves off from His plan.

Again, that is in regards to the Son doing it so that the Father be glorified in the Son. The Son, Jesus Christ has made that promise, not the Person of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is teh Divine Witness to not speak of Himself, but to testify of the Son in seeking His glory, therefore any supernatural manifestations draws attention to the spirit in the worship place is outside the role of what the Holy Spirit is sent to do and thus it is not the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the antichrist when worshippers have stopped seeking the face of the Son in giving time out to these spirits with their signs & wonders.

The only difference in our positions, is that I don't close the door to what God might do tomorrow, or 10 seconds from now, because of the counterfeits that are out there. Putting the spotlight on the Holy Spirit is just to give Him His 1/3 right to our attention as God, after so many churches have neglected Him for so long. The people I learned from have always corrected the evils as they show up, among any who would listen, and seen many fall by the wayside. But we need to keep a balance.

The difference is that the door may be closed on those refusing the commandment of His invitation to stay abiding in Him by relating to God the Father through the Son Whom is called the Bridegroom for a reason so that we are not destracted by seducing spirits and doctrines of devils that would have us do otherwise by becoming an adulterous generation seeking after a sign.

That is why we are called to test the spirits because it is the spirit of error that would destract us from worshipping the Son and by Him the Father and thus it is the role of what the spirit of the antichrist will do. That is why the Person of the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the place of honouring God the Father nor in the place of glorifying God the Father so that God the Father is reconciling the world to Himself through the Son and that will mean calling them away from their familiar spirits that they seek after and receive after a sign and thus seeing them... which is after the rudiment of the world & not after the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The fruit of the false prophet is how it is ecumenical in nature and by climbing up another way and thus broadening the way in the worship place is why any focus on the Holy Spirit in honour or in worship or in glory is not the will of the Father. Those led by the Spirit would not be led by the Spirit to honour the Spirit nor glorify the Spirit but to testify of the Son in seeking the glory of the Son which is the specific role of the Holy Spirit for dwelling within us to lead us to do.

John 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 5:[SUP]22 [/SUP]For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: [SUP]23 [/SUP]That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 13:[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. [SUP]32 [/SUP]If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

The fact that this fruit of the false prophet can be found in world's religions, occult, & cults in christianity is why it is not of Him.

John 7:7[SUP]7 [/SUP]The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

God would not copy cat any supernatural sensations in the flesh that can be found elsewhere as being of the devil because God desires to reconcile the world to Himself through the Son... that means away from those things not of Him at all.

We are edified in the word as we grow in the knowledge of Him that our love will abound more & more and that love is our first love, the Son, Whom had died for us on that cross to save us of all those that believe in Him.

May God cause the increase because I sure cannot convince you if you cannot nor will not hear Him if you fail to see why there can be no partiality as there can be no lie of the truth and nothing of the devil in that truth.