NUMBERS 21:4-9 A Serpent on a Pole

[Tintin]

Dang it, PostHuman! You beat me to it, again!

I'm writing a little about this very topic in an article I'm writing for a magazine. The article is going to be about some of the parallels between world mythology and parts of the Bible, but that they point to the truth of God's Word.

Even as a child, I saw the parallels between Moses and the bronze serpent on a stick event and the logo for medical practices. It's derived from the Rod of Asclepius from Greek mythology. Asclepius, while a real man, probably became deified and was given some imagery associated with healing and medicine, as he may have been a doctor or healer. That said, how does the stick and serpent imagery come into it and how is it that it becomes associated with healing and medicines? That's certainly not the first thing I think of when I think of serpents.

 

[Tintin]

continued...

We know that the ancient Greeks recognised a serpent as the one that enlightened their people to secret mysteries etc. We know that Zeus was, in the earliest of days, pictured as a bearded serpent. We know that the Greeks loved to appropriate other culture's histories and mythologies and make them their own. Asclepius was likely a doctor himself (not long after Moses) and he later may have been deified and confused for Moses or his attributes combined with Moses. No doubt the Greeks had heard of Moses deeds and thought him divine.

Is it too far-fetched to believe that the Asclepius' powers and the serpent wrapped around the rod could be attributed to the Greeks hearing of Moses' exploits and the worship of the bronze serpent itself? I think it's very likely. Of course, we can't say for certain, but I don't think there would ever have been another incident where people were healed by looking to a bronze serpent on a staff. Finally, there's a certain Edenic quality to the serpent staff, as well as the obvious parallel of Jesus becoming sin (represented by the serpent) in our place on the cross.

 

[thepsalmist]

"Is it too far-fetched to believe that the Asclepius' powers and the serpent wrapped around the rod could be attributed to the Greeks hearing of Moses' exploits and the worship of the bronze serpent itself? I think it's very likely."- TINTIN

I hear what you're saying here ...

The original story of Moses was about God and His power ...
Asciepus' story was about the devil and his power ...

Not surprising at all - since the devil is often found to be competing with God.

... this also helps us to understand why some think Medicine and/or drugs is sorcery
especially when the symbol of that sorcerer is still used today for Medicine ...

 

[Depleted]

"4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.
5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6 And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." NUM 21

Anyone have any understanding of this scripture that they would like to impart?
​

Yes, but I talked about it roughly a week ago.

 

[Depleted]

continued...

We know that the ancient Greeks recognised a serpent as the one that enlightened their people to secret mysteries etc. We know that Zeus was, in the earliest of days, pictured as a bearded serpent. We know that the Greeks loved to appropriate other culture's histories and mythologies and make them their own. Asclepius was likely a doctor himself (not long after Moses) and he later may have been deified and confused for Moses or his attributes combined with Moses. No doubt the Greeks had heard of Moses deeds and thought him divine.

Is it too far-fetched to believe that the Asclepius' powers and the serpent wrapped around the rod could be attributed to the Greeks hearing of Moses' exploits and the worship of the bronze serpent itself? I think it's very likely. Of course, we can't say for certain, but I don't think there would ever have been another incident where people were healed by looking to a bronze serpent on a staff. Finally, there's a certain Edenic quality to the serpent staff, as well as the obvious parallel of Jesus becoming sin (represented by the serpent) in our place on the cross.

Just to have you dig a little deeper for that article, back when I read this passage, I also was reading along with Adam Clarke. (I hope it was this passage. You know I kind of obsessed on the serpent thingy, so it could have been somewhere else too. lol) He said Bacchus (or the Greek equivalent, since I often get my Roman gods mixed up with the Greek ones) came from some understanding of Moses. Before he became the god of gluttony, he was associated with that serpent too. (Moses' staff, not the serpent in the garden.)

If'n I'm mixing up where Clarke said this stuff, do know he often refers back to what he said when he hits upon the same thing again, so, if it's not there, he'll tell where his note was.

 

[psychomom]

ehhh... this may just be fatigue...

but i can't stop thinking about the Michael Card song. 'lift up the suffering symbol'...

the serpent was the symbol of what they were suffering.

and this comes to mind, for your consideration and probable correction

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same (Heb 2:14)

what do you think?

 

[Angela53510]

Thanks for extrapolating Angela.

I'm referring to the captivity that happens in 2 Kings ... That's not the same captivity your talking about in 586 B.C. is it?

As for the Israelites ... I don't think they were any more evil than we were before we came to Christ. They were under law, without grace and without the Holy Spirit ...

2 Kings is pretty broad! It goes from Solomon through to the end of Judah. So I'm sorry I didn't answer earlier, it was late, and I did need my books to answer your question.

Israel - 722 BC carried off by Assyria, found in 2 Kings 18.

Judah - 586 BC carried off by Babylon found in 2 Kings 25:21

So because 2 Kings is basically the history of the monarchy (except for King David), it contains both stories of the exiles. It starts with a United Kingdom under Solomon, then the histories of the divided kingdoms until they do no exist.

As for whether we were more or less evil, I suppose we are about the same. But it really is a mistake to think that Israel lived under the law and had no grace. Of course they had amazing grace, compared to the surrounding countries. While they rejected God as their king, many priests and prophets knew and talked to God in ways we do not have today. Just read the stories of how God worked in the lives of the Old Testament prophets.

When Elijah thought he was the last man faithful to God, God told him he had 7000 other prophets. That strikes me as a lot of people who were walking in the grace of God.

"Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him.” 1 Kings 19:18


It is a very arrogant mistake that Christians make in assuming that God's chosen people did not have God's grace. The laws are frequently cited as the reason there was no grace. But in fact, those laws protected the Jews and kept them holy to God. That was so much more than any other culture had, until Christ fulfilled that law once and for all.

A really good, but somewhat difficult book to read on this is "The Gospel According to Moses" by Dan Block. One of the most grace filled books I have ever read.

 

[psychomom]

It is a very arrogant mistake that Christians make in assuming that God's chosen people did not have God's grace. The laws are frequently cited as the reason there was no grace. But in fact, those laws protected the Jews and kept them holy to God. That was so much more than any other culture had, until Christ fulfilled that law once and for all.

there's no grace in God's Law, Angela

(that was facetious, for the record. and ditto on recommending the book... it's wonderful!)

 

[thepsalmist]

ehhh... this may just be fatigue...

but i can't stop thinking about the Michael Card song. 'lift up the suffering symbol'...

the serpent was the symbol of what they were suffering.

and this comes to mind, for your consideration and probable correction

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same (Heb 2:14)

what do you think?

I agree ... sin is what we were suffering ... and Jesus was at that moment in time the epitome of sin ... good point.

 

[psychomom]

I agree ... sin is what we were suffering ... and Jesus was at that moment in time the epitome of sin ... good point.

thanks!

you know (i'm sure you do), theologians make a distinction between Christ's passive obedience and His active obedience.

i've had children in my Sunday School classes ask why Jesus didn't just show up and die.
but without His perfect obedience in life, we'd still be toast.

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Rom 5:10)

we needed both!

 

[4enlightment]

Does anyone have an idea why would God use a serpent as a symbol to foreshadow Christ?

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Acts 7:49 “‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord. Or where will my resting place be?

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

 

[Tintin]

Just to have you dig a little deeper for that article, back when I read this passage, I also was reading along with Adam Clarke. (I hope it was this passage. You know I kind of obsessed on the serpent thingy, so it could have been somewhere else too. lol) He said Bacchus (or the Greek equivalent, since I often get my Roman gods mixed up with the Greek ones) came from some understanding of Moses. Before he became the god of gluttony, he was associated with that serpent too. (Moses' staff, not the serpent in the garden.)

If'n I'm mixing up where Clarke said this stuff, do know he often refers back to what he said when he hits upon the same thing again, so, if it's not there, he'll tell where his note was.

You're right! Some of Bacchus' activities were ripped straight from Moses. I don't know about Bacchus having a serpent staff, but I do know he was said to have split the Red Sea in two etc.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

You are onto it. Numbers 21:4-9 is an example of typology fulfilled by Christ. The viper bites represented the sting of sin and death. The bronze snake on the pole didn't inflict a sting/bite, but was made to take on the judgment for rebellion, but that was very conditional. The lifting of it for all to look upon was the action that made the serpent on the pole the object of healing. Looking upon it in obedience was the part for those sinners to do, as it is for us to trust in God's provision for our sin by looking up to Jesus on the cross. Though Jesus, like that bronze serpent, never sinned, both were made to take on the sins of those who trusted in what God said to trust.

Scriptures interpret scriptures.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

You are onto it. Numbers 21:4-9 is an example of typology fulfilled by Christ. The viper bites represented the sting of sin and death. The bronze snake on the pole didn't inflict a sting/bite, but was made to take on the judgment for rebellion, but that was very conditional. The lifting of it for all to look upon was the action that made the serpent on the pole the object of healing. Looking upon it in obedience was the part for those sinners to do, as it is for us to trust in God's provision for our sin by looking up to Jesus on the cross. Though Jesus, like that bronze serpent, never sinned, both were made to take on the sins of those who trusted in what God said to trust.

Scriptures interpret scriptures.

Word_Swordsman, do you think the sting of sin and death and having loosed "the pains of" death could work there if showing Jesus in the picture?

For example (weaving Numbers, John and Acts in together)

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,
and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole:
and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,
ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

[tanakh]

My take on this is the Serpent represents Satan and Sin. The Bible says that Christ was made sin for us who knew no sin.
The whole story of Moses and the Exodus forshadowed Christ and his ministry. Matthews gospel in particular portrays Christ as the new and greater Moses.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Jesus said Moses wrote of him, the prophet that God would raise up, the rock, being lifted up in the same way as Moses did the serpent on a pole amen.

Heb 3:5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Word_Swordsman, do you think the sting of sin and death and having loosed "the pains of" death could work there if showing Jesus in the picture?

For example (weaving Numbers, John and Acts in together)

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,
and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole:
and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,
ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

We Christians can make those connections, but though Jesus was well revealed in the OT, Israel slumbered. Isa 6:
8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,12And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.13But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

They did in fact remain blinded to Jesus through those two desolations, but will see because God said they will. They are without excuse.