On Becoming Something Inhuman

[WebersHome]

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According to Matt 10:28, God is able to destroy both body and soul in hell
fire. Yet we know from Isa 66:22-24 and Mark 9:47-48 that the destroyed
bodies won't go out of existence but instead will be preserved as
nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm.

Q: Traditional Christianity claims that people will burn in hell for eternity.
But the human body is organic. How can it possibly survive in flame for any
time at all let alone for eternity?

A: The resurrection of the dead depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is a bit of a
mystery in that the chemistry of their bodies is not revealed. They won't be
immortal, that much is for sure. But although their bodies won't be
impervious to death, they will apparently will be made of a fire resistant
material of some kind in order to provide nourishment for the fire-proof
worm.

Q: But what of the people? What's to become of them when their bodies are
terminated in the brimstone and fed to the worms?

A: This too is a bit of a mystery. Christ testified at Matt 10:28 that not only
people's bodies, but also their souls will be terminated in hell fire.

Well; according to the available data in the book of Genesis "soul" refers to
fauna life as opposed to flora life whether the soul be bird, bug, man, or
beast; viz: a soul is a creature, and there's quite a variety of them; each
with it's own particular characteristics; viz: a human soul is a creature with
human characteristics, as opposed to a salamander soul which is a creature
with amphibian characteristics.

So then, when a soul is terminated, it loses its characteristics; ergo: when a
human soul is terminated, it loses its humanness.

However; Matt 10:28 makes no mention of the fate of the breath of life
given to human souls as per Gen 2:7.

I have yet to see any evidence indicating that the breath of life can be
terminated. That being the case, then I think it's reasonable to assume that
after people's bodies and souls are terminated, they will continue to exist. In
what condition they will exist, I don't know, but I'm guessing something
other than human; perhaps something demonic, seeing as how according to
Matt 25:41, hell fire was constructed especially for the Devil and his allies.

Jehovah's Witnesses shouldn't have any trouble with the possibility that
what's been said here is true. Here's why.

In Watch Tower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But the Society insists it is
impossible for someone to exist as a human being and a spirit being
simultaneously. So then, in order for Michael to come to the earth as a
human being, his existence as an angel had to be terminated.

However, according to the Society, Michael's life force (a.k.a. his breath of
life) survived the termination; and was transferred to Mary's womb so
Michael could be born as a human being. (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971,
p.920 and Watch Tower magazine, 2-15-1982, p.7)

Thus, by utilizing its breath of life, God transitioned an angel from one form
of life to an entirely different form of life. Well; if God can do that with an
angel's breath of life, it shouldn't be all that difficult for Him do the same
with a human's breath of life.

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[Chuckt]

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According to Matt 10:28, God is able to destroy both body and soul in hell
fire. Yet we know from Isa 66:22-24 and Mark 9:47-48 that the destroyed
bodies won't go out of existence but instead will be preserved as
nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm.

Q: Traditional Christianity claims that people will burn in hell for eternity.
But the human body is organic. How can it possibly survive in flame for any
time at all let alone for eternity?

A: The resurrection of the dead depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is a bit of a
mystery in that the chemistry of their bodies is not revealed. They won't be
immortal, that much is for sure. But although their bodies won't be
impervious to death, they will apparently will be made of a fire resistant
material of some kind in order to provide nourishment for the fire-proof
worm.

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.


Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

Daniel 3:25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

They are organic alright and they don't burn up.

 

[Magenta]

The difference between angels and human beings is that angels were created immortal while human beings were not. It should not be difficult for any to accept that to experience the second death would mean such a person is then dead, and that the dead know nothing, affirmed in Scripture, though obviously it does not mean dead for a great many people, who hold to some unBiblical view that men have an immortal soul, which is nowhere stated in Scripture, even though Scripture is abundantly clear that eternal life is found only through the acceptance of the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ on our behalf, to pay the sin debt. Those who do not accept this pass into death. The Greek word most often used means to utterly destroy. When something is utterly destroyed, there is nothing left. Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

 

[Ugly]

So Adam and Eve were going to die from the moment of their creation? Even before sin?

 

[Magenta]

So Adam and Eve were going to die from the moment of their creation? Even before sin?

Scripture does not say, only that they would die if they ate of a certain tree. Scripture does say they had free access to the tree of life, which was made off limits to them after they ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and evil. Since they did die, it would seem they did not eat of the tree of life. It is certainly not stated that they ate of the tree of life. Since men do die and Scripture states that both body and soul can be destroyed, why not accept what is explicitly stated? We shall be made as the angels following the resurrection of all, when we pass from death to life. One attribute of angels is immortality. Jesus said, "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

 

[Zmouth]

The difference between angels and human beings is that angels were created immortal while human beings were not.

In Luke 20:34-36The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So who are these angels?

Since 1 Tim 6:16 states only the Lord Jesus Christ

".. hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: "

It should not be difficult for any to accept that to experience the second death would mean such a person is then dead, and that the dead know nothing, affirmed in Scripture, though obviously it does not mean dead for a great many people, who hold to some unBiblical view that men have an immortal soul, which is nowhere stated in Scripture, even though Scripture is abundantly clear that eternal life is found only through the acceptance of the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ on our behalf, to pay the sin debt. Those who do not accept this pass into death. The Greek word most often used means to utterly destroy. When something is utterly destroyed, there is nothing left. Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

If you die aren't you dead? I can see how the the flesh can die since the soul doesn't need the flesh to live but the life of the flesh requires the soul. The scriptures state the life span of the flesh is 120 years while several times tell the reader that the life span of the spirit is 1000 years doesn't it?

 

[Zmouth]

So Adam and Eve were going to die from the moment of their creation? Even before sin?

What did the LORD tell you?

 

[Zmouth]

behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Scared the heck out me, I saw that light in front of me and thought my monitor was on fire

 

[pwrnJC]

Webershome......I have an issue with WATCH TOWER, period! Did you mention it to show how silly the doctrine expressed within it's pages really is? Or, did you use and quote it to back up your comments?
A resurrected body never rots, never burns. The Bible is clear: Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD...and that means dead people, CHRISTIAN or not. JESUS spoke of the rich man, in hades, who looked up and saw Lazarus, the poor begger in the bosum of Abraham. We know the rich man had died, along with Lazarus. Both spend eternity either in smoking or non-smoking environments. To answer your question, NO...they are no longer organic.

 

[RobbyEarl]

He is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. He is the God of the living and not the dead.

 

[Chuckt]

Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

The actual meaning has the sense of ruin, loss (waste) or unusable.


Luke 15:9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost (g622 ἀπόλλυμι apollymi).


Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish (g622 ἀπόλλυμι apollymi): but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.


Matthew 26:8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste (g684 ἀπώλεια apōleia)?

Vine's Expository Dictionary says "destroy" means:



Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive:

a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luk 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luk 15:4, 6, etc.; the lost son, Luk 15:24; of the perishing of food, Jhn 6:27; of gold, 1Pe 1:7. So of persons, Mat 2:13, "destroy;" Mat 8:25, "perish;" Mat 22:7; 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Mat 10:28; Luk 13:3, 5; Jhn 3:16 (ver. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Rom 2:12; 1Cr 15:18; 2Cr 2:15, "are perishing;" 2Cr 4:3; 2Th 2:10; Jam 4:12; 2Pe 3:9. Cp. B, II, No. 1.
See DIE, LOSE, MARRED, PERISH.
-Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words

Strong's G622 - apollymi

to destroy


to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin


render useless


to kill


to declare that one must be put to death


metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell


to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed


to destroy


to lose

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

David F. Wells discusses the wide range of meanings of the above three Biblical words:

Sinners are ‘cut off’ (Ps. 37:9, 22, 28, 34, 38), but so is the Messiah (Dan. 9:26); sinners are ‘destroyed’ (Ps. 143:12), but so was Israel (Hos. 13:9; cf. Isa. 9:14) and so were the sheep and coins that were then found (Luke 15:4, 8); unbelievers are said to ‘die,’ but then all of us have always been ‘dead’ (Rom. 6:13; 7:4; Eph. 2:1, 5; cf. Rom. 7:10, 13; 8:2, 6; I Tim. 5:6; Col. 2:13; Rev. 3:1), and that surely does not mean we have been without existence and consciousness. (42).

In fact, if we were destroyed as in annihilated, Daniel wouldn't say that some would awake to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It is inconsistent to say that the fires would destroy or annihilate humans because they were not created immortal where angels were and for those humans on earth who received the mark of the beast to have no rest day nor night.

I've been reading "Word Studies in the Greek New Testament" (Volume III) by Dr. Kenneth Wuest who was one of the NASB translators and was also a professor of Greek.

He quotes Moulton and Milligan's "Vocabulary of the Greek Testament", Grimm-Thayer, Webster's International Dictionary, Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Gree, by Herman Cremer, D.D., the LXX, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D., Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (classical).

Wuest says "Matthew 25:41 tells us that this everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. The word 'prepared' in the Greek is in the perfect tense, which tense speaks of a past complete action that has present results."-p.40 (second section of books bundled together in one book)

Wuest also writes

"As to Mark 3:29, the best Greek texts have 'sin' instead of 'damnation,' which latter word appears in the A.V., as translation of a Greek word meaning 'judgment," and which is a rejected reading. The words 'in danger of' are from a Greek word which refers to anyone 'held in anything so that he cannot escape.' Thus the one who committed the sin referred to in this passage in the grasp of an eternal sin, the sin being eternal, not in the sense of eternally repeating itself, but in that it is eternal in its guilt. Such a sin demands eternal punishment. In II Thessalonians 1:9 we have 'everlasting destruction.' The Greek word translated 'destruction' does not mean 'annihilation.' Moulton and Milligan define its first century Biblical usage as follows: 'ruin, the loss of all that gives worth to existence.' Thayer in his lexicon gives the meanings 'ruin, destruction, death.' The word comes from the verb meaning 'to destroy.' But to destroy something does not mean to put it out of existence, but to ruin it, to reduce it to such form that it loses all that gave worth to its existence. One may burn down a beautiful mansion. The materials which composed it are still in existence, a heap of ashes, but it is in such form that it has lost all that gave worth to its existence as a mansion. The eternal condition in which the soul lives forever in a state devoid of all that makes existence worthwhile."

-p. 41

 

[tanakh]

The difference between angels and human beings is that angels were created immortal while human beings were not. It should not be difficult for any to accept that to experience the second death would mean such a person is then dead, and that the dead know nothing, affirmed in Scripture, though obviously it does not mean dead for a great many people, who hold to some unBiblical view that men have an immortal soul, which is nowhere stated in Scripture, even though Scripture is abundantly clear that eternal life is found only through the acceptance of the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ on our behalf, to pay the sin debt. Those who do not accept this pass into death. The Greek word most often used means to utterly destroy. When something is utterly destroyed, there is nothing left. Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

I have a problem with this immortality doctrine myself. One particular aspect is the condition of the dead in Christ at the second coming. If they are all returning with Christ and their bodies are going to be resurrected how do the two parts join together and at what point does it happen? Even more puzzling is why are they called dead if they are already in heaven?
In addition why would it be necessary for the old bodies to be resurrected when Christ could create new ones for those in heaven. to make things more complicated Jesus said flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. The OT appears to not to support an immortal soul. It speaks of the breath of life as the soul and includes animals as having it. Even today Judaism teaches a bodily resurrection. There is a very large cemetery on the Mount of Olives where people
believe the messiah will return and those who are able to get buried there hope for a a 'front seat'

 

[WebersHome]

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A resurrected body never rots, never burns. The Bible is clear: Every knee
shall bow, every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD...and that
means dead people, CHRISTIAN or not.

It isn't necessary to have a resurrected body in order to have either a knee or
a tongue.

Take for example the deceased rich man of Luke 16:19-31. Though
disembodied, he is said to have eyes and a tongue.

The Bible says that every knee will bend, and every tongue confess. I think
it's safe to assume that "every" includes the tongues and knees of the Devil
and his allies destined to be confined in brimstone as per Matt 25:41 and
Rev 20:10.

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