Philippians Ch.3 and Attaining

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L

Least

Guest
#1
Philippians Ch. 3.

Paul begins in the chapter with "rejoice in the Lord," and speaks about the safety of the things that he writes to them. He goes on to warn them about, "dogs, evil workers and the concision."

The word, "concision," is in reference to natural circumcision. We know that flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God, so natural circumcision profits nothing.

Paul continues by saying that, 'we are of the circumcision that worship God in spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

The KJV bible dictionary defines, "concision," as:
Concision [N](Gr. katatome; i.e., "mutilation"), a term used by Paul contemptuously of those who were zealots for circumcision ( Philippians 3:2 ). Instead of the warning, "Beware of the circumcision" (peritome) i.e., of the party who pressed on Gentile converts the necessity of still observing that ordinance, he says, "Beware of the concision;" as much as to say, "This circumcision which they vaunt of is in Christ only as the gashings and mutilations of idolatrous heathen."
Paul used the word "concision" instead of the word "circumcision", as the definition above shows. There was at that time, natural teachers of the Law who pressed Gentile converts to be circumcised. However, the true circumcision was about dividing the flesh from the spirit in Christ because that is the only way anyone can attain to anything involving heavenly things.

The word, concision, brings to mind the account of Elijah when he stood up against the four-hundred and fifty prophets of Baal. Elijah stood alone in the presence of all of the people in Israel to prove that there is only one true God. (1 Kings 18) Elijah challenged the false prophets in every way, knowing that the true and living God would use him and would show the people the truth. Throughout this event, Elijah challenged them in every way and made statements that would cause the people to truly understand the grave error of Israel at that time.

When the false prophets received no answer from their god, Elijah said this:

1 Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

When all of their attempts were failing, this is what the false prophets did:

1 Kings 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

These false prophets who served King Ahab and his wife Jezebel in Israel were mutilating themselves thinking that this would bring an answer, and (of course) it did not. In the end every single one of them were put to death.

The fact that Elijah stood (on his own, at the leading of God) against all of these men shows that there is more to the story than it just being some random account. There is a heavenly/spiritual principle given by example of what it means to, "attain." Elijah's full confidence at this point was in God almighty. He was no longer being moved by natural fear, but by the power of God.

(Outward circumcision was always a picture of this dividing line between flesh (naturally led/flesh, and spirit led/by Christ.)

There had been a progression of events that shook him so much that he feared for his very life and hid in a cave for a time until God drew him out asking him, "what are you doing here?" (1 Kings 19:13) (This reminds me of what Jesus said to the disciples: "Where is your faith, or "why did you doubt?"

As we know, Paul also faced many false teachers and false accusers and yet he pressed on. The chapter goes on to speak of what it means to attain to this same confidence that kept Paul going in the face of natural fear and threat of life. Through continuance in Jesus. Paul, like Elijah attained this living, walking, breathing actual relationship where God was in the lead of every move that he made.

The true circumcision: Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Continuing on....
 
Last edited:
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
#2
Very good analogies made in the OP. I love it when the Old Testament is seen Spiritually, understanding those things as it was originally intended, and bringing this truth up to date through the testament/testimony of Christ Jesus, and the giving of the Comforter. Looking forward to more. :)
 
L

Least

Guest
#3
Paul goes on to speak more about natural and spiritual circumcision:

Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Again, Paul is giving a picture of this division where the flesh is no longer leading him. In persecuting the church through his zealousness for the natural law/to gain natural righteousness, Paul saw this at one time as gaining ground, but when he was apprehended by Christ, all of those natural leadings in his life were now being divided and "counted as loss for Christ."

Natural workings are just that, natural...and none of those things will inherit the Kingdom. Just as John the Baptist said, "I must decrease so that HE can increase," Paul now also knew this principle.."I die to myself daily."

In laying aside the natural things of the flesh in and through Christ Jesus, Paul knew that this is the way that anyone could gain the excellency of the knowledge our Lord. (Vs.8)

The process involves seeking, knocking and asking, continuing (pressing on.) Not putting the word of God to the side, but now having the heavenly/spiritual leading and teaching in and by Christ. The word itself divides flesh from spirit in Jesus, when we are seeking His will in all our ways. (Hebrews 4:12)

As he said to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:


Paul's continues with this:

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


Continuing on with the process....
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
#4
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings." Jeremiah 4:4

Some might say that for us to circumcise the foreskin of our heart is self works, but it is possible through faith.

"And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30:6
 
L

Least

Guest
#5
Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


Paul was gaining true ground now in Christ, and he gives us examples to follow after just as he did.

The next two verses I found to be very interesting:

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


First he says, "as many as be perfect, be thus minded:"

Other versions use the word, "mature," rather than "perfect."

Let all who are spiritually "mature," agree on these things. If you disagree on some point, God will make it plain to you.

All of God's word agrees, we can be in (abiding) in His will by Christ in the living way, or we can step outside of His will. But His truth never changes. He is the same yesterday today and forever. His word stands true from beginning to end. This is why His truth will agree with every follower of Jesus, and we will hear His voice because our spirit bears witness with others who are in Him.

"As many as be "mature," be thus minded...back to vs. 14 to show what he is referring to: "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." "Thus minded" by his example: Paul stayed humble, he didn't count himself to of "apprehended," but he pressed on gaining true ground in the process.

The he says: Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

In the ground that we do gain as Paul did, as Elijah did and many others throughout the scriptures did, there's an attaining. "where unto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, (faithful and trustworthy in it,) let us mind the same things.
 
L

Least

Guest
#6
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings." Jeremiah 4:4

Some might say that for us to circumcise the foreskin of our heart is self works, but it is possible through faith.

"And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30:6
Amen brother, thank you for including those verses. It shows how God's word is true throughout.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
#7
If I may? :eek:
"Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." Philippians 3:17

This thread is so practical in explaining this reality in the life of Paul.
 
L

Least

Guest
#8
The last five verses of the chapter:

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


Paul was an amazing example, by his life and his walk even by his sufferings and his zeal to gain the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus.

He goes on to warn:

Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


Paul wept about the state of these, "whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

That weeping, and that genuine heartfelt care for others was the result of that personal relationship with and in Christ. Paul felt the sorrow of loss of these people.

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And the last two verses in Philippians ch. 3.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.


The word "conversation" in vs 20 means: (Strong's concordance)

1) the administration of civil affairs or of a commonwealth
2) the constitution of a commonwealth, form of government and
the laws by which it is administered
3) a state, commonwealth
3a) the commonwealth of citizens

By God's word, through that living relationship in Christ Jesus, we press on growing and maturing in the will of the Father, which is contained in His preserved word that we are instructed to:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


To any who have read this far...thank you for sharing with me in studying this chapter. Blessings in Christ Jesus
 
L

Least

Guest
#9
If I may? :eek:
"Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." Philippians 3:17

This thread is so practical in explaining this reality in the life of Paul.
You beat me to it brother! God's word is so amazing. One chapter can cover so many things! There's never ever a time or a reason to put it down, but there's always a wonderful reason to search it out prayerfully in Christ, putting our own ideas aside, and seeking His true will.

God is so good!
 
L

Least

Guest
#10
I wanted to add a few more verses that line up with this verse:

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

(The definition of "conversation" from that verse is amazing, especially in considering the, "body," being fitly framed together, unto a holy temple of the Lord. And what the foundation is built upon.)

The word "conversation" in vs 20 means: (Strong's concordance)

1) the administration of civil affairs or of a commonwealth
2) the constitution of a commonwealth, form of government and
the laws by which it is administered
3) a state, commonwealth
3a) the commonwealth of citizens

Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
#11
"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3

Torah teaches that we are not to rely on our flesh (for dust you are , and to dust shall you return), but that we obey our Father in heaven as His children. We are the real circumcision "IF" we obey God, and do His will. Circumcision counts for nothing if we are unwilling to turn to God's instructions, and follow in the steps of Messiah (Jesus Christ). (Jeremiah 9) Paul repeatedly teaches that circumcision of the heart must come first. Circumcision of the flesh can never begin to substitute the perfect work of the Holy Spirit.

"And the Lord saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink." Jeremiah 9:13-15

Wormwood destroys cancer cells, and gall was what was offered to Jesus when He was on the cross but He drank when His work was finished. This is directly in relation to leaven.

Wormwood Kills 98% Of Cancer Cells In Just 16 Hours

"They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink." Matthew 27:34
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

This is in relation to a "Vow."
"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried." Numbers 6:2-3
 
Last edited:
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#12
Least great posts Sis,

You know, I always know when I read your posts they will have something in them that is quickened to me, or just something I was chewing on and you bring them to remembrance and might start my day having something to tackle in respects to them.

You touched upon Pauls words about his attaining, which was something I myself was looking at myself, I thought, cool, let me post what I was catching a bit, and I will always hesitate when I use my own words (so much) because I would rather not, but I havent gotten around to ordering this one up. But I trypically dont like to trail outside of posting just the scriptures saying too much but I thought this was a tad tougher to do here because there were other things I was considering along with which were harder to crunch in.

But I couldnt pass on that one, because its always just the way they say things. Seriously, Gods words are just amazing, you can think on them for ever and just get so much out of the same again (and again) they just never get old, I know you can relate to that.

I was looking at the perfect part (just here between Job and Phil) and how it is worded in a couple of places (just comparing)

For example here, Job said...


Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

And so Paul said...

Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


Phil 3:13 Brethren,
I count not myself to have apprehended

Yet down further says...


Phil 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


Given to whom that was just spoken to

and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Paul (IMO) was perfect who spoke of being minded in (not counting) himself or "as though" (he attained) or as one who "were perfect"( already) in properly minding a thing. Or perhaps rather, what mind should be in you.


Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:


Its just how
Paul counted himself (keeping also with Jobs words) who said, if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

Paul tells us how he counts not himself

Phil 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended

Yet he could say (inclusive of himself) in the same breath) alongside of them which "be perfect"

Phil 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus *minded*:
and if in any thing ye be *otherwise minded*, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He can speak differently among them that are perfect, so he acknowledges them

1 Cr 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect:
yet not the wisdom of this world,
nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

James (3:2 see below also) even tells you what the perfect man is (and what the perfect man's ability is) so its not as if not counting oneself means such are non existent in the way the scriptures describe the same. Its what others put on that verses how the scriptures do.

But I was looking at this from various angles, and when I do that I separate the studies and then bring them together as best I can after examining things that could apply (reason why I separated the above and below)

The "perfect thing" (well, as you were pointing the same out). This is what I have been looking at for quite some time myself because I distrusted alot of how these things were discussed (outside of the scripture) or by pitting the scripure.

One of those places might be where God himself said Job was perfect (to Satan) Where we have God himself saying so. But Job keenly aware that to say that of himself would actually prove his own perversity in Job 9:20 (then look at verse 21 where he says, "THOUGH I WERE") whereas Paul said, "NOT AS THOUGH" I WERE (already perfect) in Phil 3:12 but then adresses the US (himself included) AS many AS BE PERFECT Phil 3:15. I just cant help but notice all this carefulness around this (which is the same also around what you say in respects to yourself and the sin issue as well) even as most have noticed, (where less carefulness is ever applied nowadays) And addition Paul is telling them to be "of that mind", or of the mind of NOT counting themselves as such (as perfect). And if they felt "otherwise minded" in what he just told them concerning what mind to be in regarding this issue, that God himself would make this clear to them. My speculation (here) Sort of like, some of the perfect could be understanding this (at one level of thought or another) and begin some sort of self defeating affirmation deal in this area which is subject to much misunderstanding. They (then) begin to count themselves (in a mind that they really should not. Which is not helpful towards any kind of spurring oneself on, but would also not be well recieved to do such a thing. In otherwords the perfect in Christ (or the mind that was in him) wouldnt go around saying they were perfect even if God's own mouth decalred them so (and they actually were). And I like that he adds, that if any of the same be otherwise minded on what he just said, that God himself would make this one clear to them (as Paul had such confidence on this very point God would). Which I just think is so awesome, how that is laid out and the carefulness he takes surrounding these things has always fascinated me.

The perfect in the same are of the full age (or they which are called spiritual). And even as many "as be" perfect which he could speak wisdom among likewise as many as were spiritual he could speak as unto as spiritual (and not as unto carnal) as the Corinthian church was. In the place where Paul would say "I am carnal" he sought to become all things to all men (speaking as a man as unto men) and would need to come down to their level in order to elevate them (speaking to them in a way they could hear (as a man). And so althogh Paul spoke of not counting himself as perfect (the perfect being the spiritual) or full age, I count him as perfect if trying to reccognize the perfect man (even as James describes the perfect man) by not pointing out himself but rather how to reccognize one by his ability even Paul acknowledges the perfect. Just as he acknowledges he could not speak to certain as unto spiritual (which he was) but as unto carnal ( or as unto babes) who are obviously not yet of full age (which is the same as the perfect) who have waxed strong in the Spirit.

Of the perfect

James says...

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all.

Then says...

If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man,
and able also to bridle the whole body.


Thats James definition

Whereas Paul exercised himself to have a conscience void of offence

And in a twofold sense as he says here...


Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself,
to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

James (3:2) points out that in "many things" we offend all, so he acknowledges this but is more specific here...


If any man offend not in word,
the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

So James establishes the same is a perfect man along with an ability

Able also to bridle the whole body

Which (to me) seems very much to be an example in Paul also

1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body,and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

They all mesh though, Paul might not have counted himself as something and told others that be as he was (which was perfect) not to count themselves that way (which be so) but the way perfect is spoken of is having the ability to bridle the entire body along with offending not in word, which is definately something to aim for in exercising ourselves through the Spirit unto godliness. To go from feeble to strong through the power of His Spirit.

I definately need to shorten things up and learn to make breifer points or something (so pray for me) lol, I was just speaking out of what I am observing between these things and nothing more really. Sometimes thing become a little more clearer depending on what we are comparing, I know that is true for me.

Decent thread least, thanks, and God richly bless you
 
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#13
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings." Jeremiah 4:4

Some might say that for us to circumcise the foreskin of our heart is self works, but it is possible through faith.

"And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30:6
Amen Just-me, the love of ((God)) is shed abroad in our hearts by the Spirit
The circumcision of Christ (in the inward man) is by the Spirit that we might love the LORD thy God (with all our heart and souls) so we might live (as Christ lives) even through Him.

We love because he first loved us (circumcised our hearts to love Him) through the Spirit which sheds the love of GOD in our hearts.

This coming by Jesus Christ

( Our God so rocks!)
 
L

Least

Guest
#14
"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3

Torah teaches that we are not to rely on our flesh (for dust you are , and to dust shall you return), but that we obey our Father in heaven as His children. We are the real circumcision "IF" we obey God, and do His will. Circumcision counts for nothing if we are unwilling to turn to God's instructions, and follow in the steps of Messiah (Jesus Christ). (Jeremiah 9) Paul repeatedly teaches that circumcision of the heart must come first. Circumcision of the flesh can never begin to substitute the perfect work of the Holy Spirit.

"And the Lord saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink." Jeremiah 9:13-15

Wormwood destroys cancer cells, and gall was what was offered to Jesus when He was on the cross but He drank when His work was finished. This is directly in relation to leaven.

Wormwood Kills 98% Of Cancer Cells In Just 16 Hours

"They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink." Matthew 27:34
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

This is in relation to a "Vow."
"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried." Numbers 6:2-3
That is amazing just-me! I've wondered about the remission of sins in relation to cancer.

Just an ordinary online dictionary says this about "remission."
noun 1. the act of remitting.

2. pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses.

3. abatement or diminution, as of diligence, labor, intensity, etc.

4. the relinquishment of a payment, obligation, etc.

5. Medicine/Medical.
  • a temporary or permanent decrease or subsidence of manifestations of a disease.
  • a period during which such a decrease or subsidence occurs: The patient's leukemia was in remission.
In relation to Zackariah 3:

Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zechariah 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zechariah 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zechariah 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.


Zechariah 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zechariah 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.


A picture of cleansing or remission, and then in faithfulness keeping our garments.

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Thank you for sharing this, that's really something!
 
L

Least

Guest
#15
Least great posts Sis,

For example here, Job said...


Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

And so Paul said...

Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


Phil 3:13 Brethren,
I count not myself to have apprehended

Yet down further says...


Phil 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


Given to whom that was just spoken to

and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Paul (IMO) was perfect who spoke of being minded in (not counting) himself or "as though" (he attained) or as one who "were perfect"( already) in properly minding a thing. Or perhaps rather, what mind should be in you.


Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:


Its just how
Paul counted himself (keeping also with Jobs words) who said, if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

Paul tells us how he counts not himself

Phil 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended

Yet he could say (inclusive of himself) in the same breath) alongside of them which "be perfect"

Phil 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus *minded*:
and if in any thing ye be *otherwise minded*, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He can speak differently among them that are perfect, so he acknowledges them

1 Cr 2:6
Howbeitwe speak wisdom among them that are perfect:
yet not the wisdom of this world,
nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

James (3:2 see below also) even tells you what the perfect man is (and what the perfect man's ability is) so its not as if not counting oneself means such are non existent in the way the scriptures describe the same. Its what others put on that verses how the scriptures do.

But I was looking at this from various angles, and when I do that I separate the studies and then bring them together as best I can after examining things that could apply (reason why I separated the above and below)

The "perfect thing" (well, as you were pointing the same out). This is what I have been looking at for quite some time myself because I distrusted alot of how these things were discussed (outside of the scripture) or by pitting the scripure.

One of those places might be where God himself said Job was perfect (to Satan) Where we have God himself saying so. But Job keenly aware that to say that of himself would actually prove his own perversity in Job 9:20 (then look at verse 21 where he says, "THOUGH I WERE") whereas Paul said, "NOT AS THOUGH" I WERE (already perfect) in Phil 3:12 but then adresses the US (himself included) AS many AS BE PERFECT Phil 3:15. I just cant help but notice all this carefulness around this (which is the same also around what you say in respects to yourself and the sin issue as well) even as most have noticed, (where less carefulness is ever applied nowadays) And addition Paul is telling them to be "of that mind", or of the mind of NOT counting themselves as such (as perfect). And if they felt "otherwise minded" in what he just told them concerning what mind to be in regarding this issue, that God himself would make this clear to them. My speculation (here) Sort of like, some of the perfect could be understanding this (at one level of thought or another) and begin some sort of self defeating affirmation deal in this area which is subject to much misunderstanding. They (then) begin to count themselves (in a mind that they really should not. Which is not helpful towards any kind of spurring oneself on, but would also not be well recieved to do such a thing. In otherwords the perfect in Christ (or the mind that was in him) wouldnt go around saying they were perfect even if God's own mouth decalred them so (and they actually were). And I like that he adds, that if any of the same be otherwise minded on what he just said, that God himself would make this one clear to them (as Paul had such confidence on this very point God would). Which I just think is so awesome, how that is laid out and the carefulness he takes surrounding these things has always fascinated me.

The perfect in the same are of the full age (or they which are called spiritual). And even as many "as be" perfect which he could speak wisdom among likewise as many as were spiritual he could speak as unto as spiritual (and not as unto carnal) as the Corinthian church was. In the place where Paul would say "I am carnal" he sought to become all things to all men (speaking as a man as unto men) and would need to come down to their level in order to elevate them (speaking to them in a way they could hear (as a man). And so althogh Paul spoke of not counting himself as perfect (the perfect being the spiritual) or full age, I count him as perfect if trying to reccognize the perfect man (even as James describes the perfect man) by not pointing out himself but rather how to reccognize one by his ability even Paul acknowledges the perfect. Just as he acknowledges he could not speak to certain as unto spiritual (which he was) but as unto carnal ( or as unto babes) who are obviously not yet of full age (which is the same as the perfect) who have waxed strong in the Spirit.

Of the perfect

James says...

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all.

Then says...

If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man,
and able also to bridle the whole body.


Thats James definition

Whereas Paul exercised himself to have a conscience void of offence

And in a twofold sense as he says here...


Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself,
to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

James (3:2) points out that in "many things" we offend all, so he acknowledges this but is more specific here...


If any man offend not in word,
the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

So James establishes the same is a perfect man along with an ability

Able also to bridle the whole body

Which (to me) seems very much to be an example in Paul also

1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body,and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

They all mesh though, Paul might not have counted himself as something and told others that be as he was (which was perfect) not to count themselves that way (which be so) but the way perfect is spoken of is having the ability to bridle the entire body along with offending not in word, which is definately something to aim for in exercising ourselves through the Spirit unto godliness. To go from feeble to strong through the power of His Spirit.

I definately need to shorten things up and learn to make breifer points or something (so pray for me) lol, I was just speaking out of what I am observing between these things and nothing more really. Sometimes thing become a little more clearer depending on what we are comparing, I know that is true for me.

Decent thread least, thanks, and God richly bless you
 
Desiredhaven, Feel free to post on any of my threads anytime sister. you're never trailing and always add to the topic. You're studies bless me. This is what sharpening is all about and I love how you dig into the word. Who can't blessed by that?

You covered passages from throughout the bible, (and it's true) that scripture interprets scripture. So to have them lined up like that so people can read them for themselves is great!
Phil 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Given to whom that was just spoken to

and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Paul (IMO) was perfect who spoke of being minded in (not counting) himself or "as though" (he attained) or as one who "were perfect"( already) in properly minding a thing. Or perhaps rather, what mind should be in you.
This is such a good point, "being thus minded, and properly minding something" In terms of "pressing on it reminds me of what Jesus said here:

Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Walking faithfully in what He's given us.

In terms of not thinking or speaking of themselves as though they were already perfect.

It always reminds me of when Jesus told the Pharisees that He came for sinners and not the righteous. I remember wondering and praying over that, because it was obvious that they weren't righteous in His sight. In other passages He told them to clean the inside of the dish and the outside would be clean as well as many other things.

Then I realized that they believed that they were perfect (in understanding,) they were the teachers after all.

When a person comes to a point to a point of thinking that they have it all or know it all, then what more is there to teach them?

Also considering what Paul said here:

1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.


(Being thus minded, praying always and understanding that God's ways are so far above ours, and that only He gives the increase.)

I love the way that you examined the account in Job and how he stayed humble even as shown in his own words. Though God said that he was perfect, Job nor any other person who walked closely with God ever claimed that perfection of themselves.

In other words the perfect in Christ (or the mind that was in him) wouldnt go around saying they were perfect even if God's own mouth decalred them so (and they actually were). And I like that he adds, that if any of the same be otherwise minded on what he just said, that God himself would make this one clear to them (as Paul had such confidence on this very point God would). Which I just think is so awesome, how that is laid out and the carefulness he takes surrounding these things has always fascinated me.
Great observation sis! There are so many traits like this in those who walked with the Lord, that would be an awesome topic all in itself.
(The traits of these people tell us so much about themselves, and about what's pleasing to God.)

I believe there's a whole reason for this: but I'll leave that for another day as it could be a discussion all in itself.

Back to Paul and what he said:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

In Comparison to what Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


I'm going to end this because I too can write all day. I'm working on that myself...lol hugs to you.:cool:

Blessings and Peace in Christ Thank you for sharing!