Poll Regarding Paul & Romans 7

[PaulThomson]

Yes, we are set free from the sinful nature by the circumcision of Christ, raised from the dead with Him to life with Him. We no longer are "in the flesh" but "in the Spirit" because "the Spirit of God dwells" in us. All this is true.

But this truth comes hand-in-glove with another truth... "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. " (Ro 8:10 NASB).

Now that your Sinful Nature has been "cut out and permanently removed", where do think your sins come from?

Saints' sins come from the unrenewed mind and the instinctual drives of the flesh.
I think the circumcision separates the person's renewed spirit from contamination by the thoughts and deeds of his/her mind and flesh. It does not remove sin-potential from the mind and body, but only from the spirit. He that is born of God (the spiritusl man, the new man) cannot sin. But the old man, ready to rise up in mind and flesh unless continually crucified, can.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Well, one thing we know is this: The source of evil certainly isn't Satan, for the defeat of Satan is the Purpose of Christ in his First Advent.

Once the Power of Satan has been pulled from the new believer, they will undergo the process of Sanctification. If the Devil is no longer the motivating factor to produce evil fruit, the only other option is that a person is being sanctified of their knowledge of evil, and their behaviors begin to over time, sometimes quickly (like Saul to Paul), and then others take more time, particularly considering their circumcstances.

This is an inexplicable concept. The sinful nature is cut out and permanently removed, the power of the devil is permanently pulled, and all corruption has been removed by spiritual circumcision... yet there is still a need for sanctification (i.e., "holiness") in the person's mind and behaviors. A much better concept would be that the body/old man is dead to God and "grows corrupt" but the spirit/new man is alive to God in "true righteousness and holiness" (Ro 8:10; Eph 4:22-24). Otherwise, you are identifying an new source of sin within a person that must be cleaned away and dealt with again because the first cleansing didn't work completely.

Paul grew quickly because he had genuine Christians surrounding him. But if a person is Powerfully Saved by the Spirit, yet they do not have influences in their life who can explain what God has done and is doing in their life, their Transformation can take significantly more time.

This is factually incorrect. As Paul stated in his letter to the Galatians, he did not immediately confer with people, and had very little contact with other's of stature for several years after his conversion.

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)
21 Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ. 23 But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God in me.

[The New King James Version (Ga 1:10–24). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]

Our minds. How does a man just stop appreciating his old sexual lifestyle? He can't. The only way to get past these thoughts and feelings is by and through the Power of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

And then we run into this little passage:

Acts 25:8 CSB - "Then Paul made his defense: "Neither against the Jewish law, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I sinned in any way."

Unless Paul is a liar, he clearly states that he has not sinned against the Jewish Law, nor against the Temple, nor has he violated any Gentile law. Paul states that he has NOT sinned in any way.

Yet in Romans, which was written during the same time frame as his words in Acts above, most Christians believe that Paul was out of control.

Paul was CLEARLY describing his former, pre-Transformed life while he was a devout follower of the Law (of Moses).

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

According to Paul's own words, he was separated and alienated from God.

Colossians 1:21 NLT - "This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions."

Because Paul was begging for a Savior in R7, wouldn't this indicate the he, himself was "far away from God"? Wasn't he an enemy of the Lord? According to his own self-description, wasn't Paul telling us that he was separated from God? Again, he was begging for a Savior, indicating that he wasn't saved. Let's not forget that R7 is about behavior, for he states that his mind was dominated by sin and death. Could anyone give a more clear description of their Spiritual status? What else could he have said that would cause us to believe that he was a child of the Devil?

He said it himself that he couldn't stop sinning. Wouldn't this mean that he was separated from the Lord because of his hostile, alienated mind? Why do these words apply to others, but not seemingly to himself?

And yet . . . the majority of Paul's teachings include Purity, Righteousness, and Holiness. And as he describes himself in this way, and as he makes it clear that his sin life is non-existent, Christians do not relate [that] Paul. Instead, Christians relate to the evil and corrupt Paul.

Why would a true Christian relate to sin, death, and corruption, but not words of Righteousness, Purity, and Holiness? Well? Why? Why do Christians relate to sin, but not Purity?

Pastors . . . you have failed.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Are we helping others to become set free from the controlling, evil "flesh" that causes children of the Devil to disobey?

Galatians 5:24 KJV – “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Let's make sure that we don't strip Christ of His Effectual Power in our lives. After all, this is His Plan for His Elect. If we have not been set free from the Power of sin . . . we might look for a Spiritual mirror and start doing some self-investigating. This is for not some, but all people. We are all to examine ourselves and be honest with what we find. What is that Spiritual mirror? Have we changed or not?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

According to the below Passage, Paul must be one of the top hypocrites in the Bible.

Philippians 2:5 NLT - "You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had."

Yet in Romans 7, he states that his mind is dominated by sin and death.

Paul was absolutely not a hypocrite. He was Pure, Righteous, and Holy.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I cheated and looked ahead to the next chapter, Romans 8! This is why I voted for the second choice:
✔️ He Was Describing His Former Life Before Jesus Found Him On The Damascus Road


Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

...

Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.


🍱

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I cheated and looked ahead to the next chapter, Romans 8! This is why I voted for the second choice:
✔️ He Was Describing His Former Life Before Jesus Found Him On The Damascus Road


Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

...

Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.


🍱

Indeed. Thank you for sharing. You know, as I continue my chronological study through the Epistles, I have been cataloging each piece of Scripture that references his holiness, purity, the number of times he calls people to be just like himself, commands that people live pure lives, praises churches for being pure and doing all that he had asked of them. When you look at his demand for obedience, and when a person understands the role of the Law of Moses as it relates to each page of the Bible, it's pretty easy to determine that Paul was writing about his life as the man whose mind was filled with thoughts of sin and death when he was actually living that way . . . he was killing Christians.

Take a look at these writings from Paul from Phillippians alone, and compare them to all that he talked about in R7. It's unbelievable:
Phil 01:11 - NLT - "May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation--the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ--for this will bring much glory and praise to God."

Phil 01:19 - ESV - ". . . for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance . . ."

Phil 01:20 - ESV - ". . . as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death."

Phil 01:27 - CSB - "Just one thing: As citizens of heaven, live your life worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or am absent, I will hear about you that you are standing firm in one spirit, in one accord, contending together for the faith of the gospel . . ."

Phil 02:05 - NLT - "You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had."

Phil 02:14-15 - NLT - "Do everything without complaining and arguing, so that no one can criticize you. Live clean, innocent lives as children of God, shining like bright lights in a world full of crooked and perverse people."

Phil 03:18-19 - NLT - "For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. They are headed for destruction. Their god is their appetite, they brag about shameful things, and they think only about this life here on earth."

According to Paul's own words, his conduct in R7 proved that he was an enemy of the cross. As he said in R7, his mind was dominated by sin and death. Therefore, as he says in Phillippians, he must be headed for destruction.

 

[Evmur]

Paul begins his subject in verse 1 with Do you not know brethren -for I am speaking to those who know the law- and his subject is about the effect of the law upon our natural state, that is knowing the law but as yet not saved.

You cannot believe that Paul the Apostle was a slave to sin, that when he desired to do good he did instead that which is evil. Saul of Tarsus thought he was doing good and serving God when he was persecuting the church but he was doing evil.

Paul not only preached dominion over sin he lived it. Folks use this scripture to excuse their backsliding, if we are caught in some sin it is best to be honest about it and seek deliverance and victory .... shame should be taken out of this. We ARE human, we ARE frail.

The greatest weapon against backsliding is good wholesome doctrine.

's long as folk believe in the doctrine of human freewill they will sin. It is a morass, a breeding ground for sin. It is the debate zone

we are tempted, we think "shall I/shall I not? I want to, God says no, but I still want to " BANG we are doing it.

And that is the way the law works which should show you that living according to human freewill is trying to obey the law.

Paul teaches that we are dead to sin and so consequently dead to the law.

 

[PaulThomson]

Paul begins his subject in verse 1 with Do you not know brethren -for I am speaking to those who know the law- and his subject is about the effect of the law upon our natural state, that is knowing the law but as yet not saved.

You cannot believe that Paul the Apostle was a slave to sin, that when he desired to do good he did instead that which is evil. Saul of Tarsus thought he was doing good and serving God when he was persecuting the church but he was doing evil.

Paul not only preached dominion over sin he lived it. Folks use this scripture to excuse their backsliding, if we are caught in some sin it is best to be honest about it and seek deliverance and victory .... shame should be taken out of this. We ARE human, we ARE frail.

The greatest weapon against backsliding is good wholesome doctrine.

's long as folk believe in the doctrine of human freewill they will sin. It is a morass, a breeding ground for sin. It is the debate zone

we are tempted, we think "shall I/shall I not? I want to, God says no, but I still want to " BANG we are doing it.

And that is the way the law works which should show you that living according to human freewill is trying to obey the law.

Paul teaches that we are dead to sin and so consequently dead to the law.

We were designed to live yoked to God by the Holy Spirit. We can't live god's righteousness without being yoked to Him.o Holy Spirit will do that to a man. It is not good for man to be alone.

 

[Evmur]

Paul learnt to be content in any and all circumstances so he is not describing the Christian life. It is understandable to struggle initially in the Christian life for it is a new and living way and we must learn how to walk by means of the Spirit, but it is not a life in which we should find ourselves constantly struggling till the day we die.

Phil.4:12-13
12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

The great struggle we are engaged in is not against sin but it is the grand old fight of faith. To BELIEVE that the victory has been won for us and we can receive it by a miracle of grace.

 

[sawdust]

The great struggle we are engaged in is not against sin but it is the grand old fight of faith. To BELIEVE that the victory has been won for us and we can receive it by a miracle of grace.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[Evmur]

We were designed to live yoked to God by the Holy Spirit. We can't live god's righteousness without being yoked to Him.o Holy Spirit will do that to a man. It is not good for man to be alone.

having peace with God trumps all, the peace which passeth understanding. If we have that we can make it.

 

[homwardbound]

Both answers are true to me, from my personal experience too, thanks I see to not be under Law, rather uphold Law as good for me to be new in from the risen Son given to me by Father for me and all others that choose to believe God, between God and them too
Thanks for this post to reflect in me

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

If Paul was living for Christ when he wrote Philippians, does this mean that he wasn't living for Christ in Romans 7?

Philippians 1:21 NLT - "For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better.”

If Paul was sinfully out of control in Romans 7, then it is 100% impossible for him to acknowledge, at that time, that he was living for Christ. Anyone who calls out of a Savior couldn’t possibly be living for Christ. He even states that the Law brought him death. How could Paul, if he was Spiritually dead, be living for Christ?

 

[homwardbound]

If Paul was living for Christ when he wrote Philippians, does this mean that he wasn't living for Christ in Romans 7?

Philippians 1:21 NLT - "For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better.”

If Paul was sinfully out of control in Romans 7, then it is 100% impossible for him to acknowledge, at that time, that he was living for Christ. Anyone who calls out of a Savior couldn’t possibly be living for Christ. He even states that the Law brought him death. How could Paul, if he was Spiritually dead, be living for Christ?

Great question

Paul on the road to Damascus, saw Jesus Alive on that road and heard Jesus say to him why art thou persecuting mer, I am alive.
Paul blinded by such a bright light went into the town and got healing from another person in belief to God as well.
Then I read in Galatians, how Paul was missing for two years in the Arabian desert.
I asked what was Paul doing?
I hear, heard this
Paul was being retrained to see new and let go of Law to do=, that he could not do in the flesh nature at all, not literally ever as no one could or can to this day, according to God. If anyone could or even can now today, then God's Son went the cross for us all in vain and will not flow through anyone's veins, by his being raised from the dead as seen by over 500 witnesses back then.

Modernizing this:
Paul saw a chalk board with an eraser and a piece if chalk there. God says to Paul see that chalk board with all that writing on it. That is your life from birth to the present right now.
Paul says okay, what next? God says see that eraser? Paul says yes! God says erase your life all of it on that chalk board. Everything
Paul does that, then God says pick up that chalk and write as I tell you to write

Paul learned new and wrote this to su the people from Jail. About the new life. Therefore we have as EX: Philippians, reading it from Chapter one especially verse 6. Paul became confident in God's lead overs first taught lead by Gamaliel under Law to do to get. He saw, sees he cannot do it, no one can and need God to lead them and that can only be done in anyone if willing, to be led by God
God will do the for anyone that is serious about knowing God as God is the one and only one that knows who are and who are not
So, Paul shares in Romans 6, 7, 8 about this. Romans 1-2 introducing truth, 3-5 telling truth, 6-8 retelling it in a different way
For us to get it. Then seeing what he says in Philippians 3 about anyone that wants to go flesh efforts and think they got it better than others (Luke 18:9-14) he states he himself had gotten it better than anyone else ever. Being a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin. To let go of all that in order to win truth of Christ the risen one for him and you all too. No longer under any Law, now by grace the sees to just love all, not a few did
Thanks trusting this helps you in your walk here on earth in belief to God too

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Great question

Paul on the road to Damascus, saw Jesus Alive on that road and heard Jesus say to him why art thou persecuting mer, I am alive.
Paul blinded by such a bright light went into the town and got healing from another person in belief to God as well.
Then I read in Galatians, how Paul was missing for two years in the Arabian desert.
I asked what was Paul doing?
I hear, heard this
Paul was being retrained to see new and let go of Law to do=, that he could not do in the flesh nature at all, not literally ever as no one could or can to this day, according to God. If anyone could or even can now today, then God's Son went the cross for us all in vain and will not flow through anyone's veins, by his being raised from the dead as seen by over 500 witnesses back then.

Modernizing this:
Paul saw a chalk board with an eraser and a piece if chalk there. God says to Paul see that chalk board with all that writing on it. That is your life from birth to the present right now.
Paul says okay, what next? God says see that eraser? Paul says yes! God says erase your life all of it on that chalk board. Everything
Paul does that, then God says pick up that chalk and write as I tell you to write

Paul learned new and wrote this to su the people from Jail. About the new life. Therefore we have as EX: Philippians, reading it from Chapter one especially verse 6. Paul became confident in God's lead overs first taught lead by Gamaliel under Law to do to get. He saw, sees he cannot do it, no one can and need God to lead them and that can only be done in anyone if willing, to be led by God
God will do the for anyone that is serious about knowing God as God is the one and only one that knows who are and who are not
So, Paul shares in Romans 6, 7, 8 about this. Romans 1-2 introducing truth, 3-5 telling truth, 6-8 retelling it in a different way
For us to get it. Then seeing what he says in Philippians 3 about anyone that wants to go flesh efforts and think they got it better than others (Luke 18:9-14) he states he himself had gotten it better than anyone else ever. Being a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin. To let go of all that in order to win truth of Christ the risen one for him and you all too. No longer under any Law, now by grace the sees to just love all, not a few did
Thanks trusting this helps you in your walk here on earth in belief to God too

Hmmm. Well, it seems to me that the passage is very clear and straightforward, which is that God Loves the Jewish Nation; a specific people called the circumcision.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Shouldn't Timothy be advising Paul with the below words? Seems a little backward.

1 Timothy 4:12 NKJV - "Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity."

 

[homwardbound]

Hmmm. Well, it seems to me that the passage is very clear and straightforward, which is that God Loves the Jewish Nation; a specific people called the circumcision.

you and I and all those that sincerely believe God, get it right in trust to Father, these believers go the risen Son Jesus for them to stand in humility in, thanksgiving and praise seeing all sin taken away by Son for them Psalms 100:4, 103:12
God also loves us all, and is given to us all to trust and stand in that, no matter what troubles come up against us